Advice on a new Charm

[Flagg]

I have an idea for a new Solar �Charm, as a followup to Willpower-Enhanching Spirit, and I could use some advice as to the cost.


If any of you are familiar with Earthdawn, you may remember an especially nasty Talent from the Liberator Discipline where they could "save up" a lifetime of beatings, and then unleash all that damage back on their abuser at once.


I thought a good way to replicate this as a Charm would be to allow the Solar to commit a certain number of motes for each health level inflicted upon him by a particular enemy, then later unleash this damage back at them in a single, unsoakable attack.


I have a pretty good idea of the mechanics, but I'm struggling on the cost. Obviously this is a potentially devastating effect, so it shouldn't be cheap. Then again, it would only be effective on one enemy at a time, and would require a potentially long-term commitment of essence, so I don't want to make it prohibitive.


What do you guys think would be fair? 1 mote per HL? 5? Something else? Perhaps it could be fairly cheap, but have a cap on the total damage?


-S

 

[dmoonfire]

Hrm, for starters, I would think this is closer to an Abyssal charm than a Solar one. I would also not make it unsoakable (maybe extend it with a charm in the Essence 6+ that does unsoakable).


As for mechanics, I would say it "per blow". So, you spend, say 2-3 motes when you take damage and can "save" up that attack, which just needs to be the amount the Exalted took, plus the type (bashing, lethal). I would probably exclude aggravated (again until a high Esssence version).


So, 2 motes at the point of impact and you record the damage the character took, after soak and armor and all those nifty charms. Those charms remain commited until the character uses it (by touch, not end of sharp pointy thing).


That would be my suggestion.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I'm going to disagree with dmoonfire on this one. It sounds like a good Solar Charm.  Retribution for wrong done.  Not exactly a Abyssal forte.


I'd say 2 motes to save one Bashing attack, and 3 motes for Lethal to store it for the day. An extended beating could mean a fair amount of Essence to lock it down. No cap for damage taken or stored.


Each morning, the Solar commits 4 points of Essence to "convert" the pain to a portable form, and lick his wounds.  Doesn't matter the amount, the type of damage, it's just the surcharge to carry the burden.  Mind you, this should be for only one class of victimizer--prison guards, barbarian torturers, a specific Dragon Blood with a taste for the rough trade.  


Release of either the Bashing or Lethal damage is instant; I wouldn't make it Aggravated, but I would make it Unsoakable with armor or Charms, but perhaps instead of a Stamina Soak, the victim uses their Compassion or Conviction--the strength of their character or beliefs that such treatment was neccessary.  


Relatively heavy cost during a beat down--but not so much the next day.  Could get prohibitive if you've got a lot enemies.

 

[dmoonfire]

I could see it as a Solar charm, I just though it would be closer to Abyssal. Of course, I was also thinking of how my players would use it. Spend their downtime beating the crap out of themselves, store it like Principals of Motion, and use it in the first fight/"negotiation". From that point of view, its an Abyssal charm. Of course, there isn't anything that says you can't do both a Solar and Abyssal form.

 

[Flagg]

Of course, I was also thinking of how my players would use it. Spend their downtime beating the crap out of themselves, store it like Principals of Motion, and use it in the first fight/"negotiation".

If you read my initial description carefully, you'd notice that this Charm is intended to release the damage back at the abuser, so a character who beats himself up wouldn't see much benefit from it.


Here's a rough draft of the mechanics I've worked up. It needs streamlining, but I'll worry about that when I get everything solified.


Once per scene, the Solar may "save up" the damage from a single blow, at the cost of X motes, which remain committed until the Charm expires. This Charm may be invoked multiple times, accumulating the saved damage levels, though the character may only save damage from a single opponent at a time.


The Solar recevies and heals this damage normally, though he keeps a running total of the damage he has "saved" in this manner. He may at any time, upon a successful attack, reflexively release the aggregate punsihment upon his tormentor as dice of unsoakable lethal damage. This damage may not be supplemented by Charms, or by extra successes on the attack roll.


Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming


-S

 

[Vanman]

Of course, I was also thinking of how my players would use it. Spend their downtime beating the crap out of themselves, store it like Principals of Motion, and use it in the first fight/"negotiation".

I think this was covered in that it's damage done by an enemy. Jakk's suggestion of a particular type of enemy limits it even further. And the damage, if I'm reading it correctly, can only be directed at the one who abused and/or damaged them. It becomes a different matter entirely if you can save up any damage and then release that damage on anyone. So if the charm is defined this way, your players would be unable to do this....

 

[Vanman]

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming

Doh! A bit too slow!


:-)

 

[uteck]

Once per scene, the Solar may "save up" the damage from a single blow, at the cost of X motes, which remain committed until the Charm expires.

I find the wording a bit confusing.  (But in true WW style, that is as it should be. )
Perhaps; "During the scene the caster can "save up" the damage from a each blow from a spacific attacker, at the cost of X motes, which remain committed until the Charm expires.  This Charm can be cast multiple times for different tormentors."

 

[Flagg]

Perhaps; "During the scene the caster can "save up" the damage from a each blow from a spacific attacker, at the cost of X motes, which remain committed until the Charm expires.  This Charm can be cast multiple times for different tormentors."

Yes, that would be great wording, except you just changed the mechanics significantly


By my wording, the character can save one blow per scene, for one enemy at a time.


Your wording allows unlimited blows per scene against multiple enemies.


So no, that doesn't make it less confusing, just entirely different.


-S

 

[uteck]

Scene length charms that only work once always confuse me.  Why not make it reflexive then?

 

[Flagg]

Scene length charms that only work once always confuse me.  Why not make it reflexive then?

I haven't stated wether or not it's reflexive. Why would you assume it isn't?


Also, its not scene-length (it would actuially be more like "indefinite"), but it may only be used once per scene.


-S

 

[uteck]

Scene length charms that only work once always confuse me.  Why not make it reflexive then?

I haven't stated wether or not it's reflexive. Why would you assume it isn't?


Also, its not scene-length (it would actuially be more like "indefinite"), but it may only be used once per scene.


-S

Once per scene, the Solar may "save up" the damage from a single blow

I was confused by this wording you posted.  Perhaps more coffee will clear my confusion.  I was up at 3 am so I am a bit slow today.

 

[Flagg]

Perhaps more coffee will clear my confusion.

Friends don't let friends post while under-caffinated.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

So what's it called?

 

[Flagg]

So what's it called?

Still working on that one. The original Earthdawn ability is called "Hoard Blows".. but that's boring.


-S

 

[Solfi]

yes, you could even say it blows  8)


 ... don't hit me! I'm sorry! I didn't mean it! Honest!


rhm... anyways. Unleashing the Righteous Balance, or something maybe not quite so pompous, but with connotations to balance or retribution?

 

[Hanat-Osul]

PARTY FOUL.

yes, you could even say it blows  8)
 ... don't hit me! I'm sorry! I didn't mean it! Honest!

You, sirrah, are cut off.  86'd.  No more jokes for you.

 

[Persell]

The mechanics could be done differently, too. Perhaps make that charm buyable multiple times (perhaps up to conviction rating times) and let each purchase of the charm enhance the solar's capability to store "beatings".


I'd suggest 3-5 dice of aggraveted damage per charm purchase. Then even a fully maxed solar would only roll 15-25 dice of aggravated damage. Here is where balancing comes in. I personally would go for 5 dice and make the charm essence 6 or 7 with some other prerquisite of some kind.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Just a monkey wrench to throw into all of this...


 Why would a Solar come up with a charm like this? Not the mechanics, but the theme--the concept of one of the rulers of Creation deliberately taking damage in order to send it back at them?


 Considering how the Solar have access to perfect effects, why not simply write a Solar version of Shield of Mars?

 

[Flagg]

 Why would a Solar come up with a charm like this? Not the mechanics' date=' but the theme--the concept of one of the rulers of Creation deliberately taking damage in order to send it back at them?[/quote']
Earthdawn's Liberator Discipline exists for the purpose of freeing the enslaved. The typical MO of the Liberator is to get himself captured and enslaved deliberately, then lead his fellow slaves to rebellion, Spartacus-style.


The Hoard Blows Talent is supposed to be used to help them take out powerful slavers.


I'd imagine that in Creation, a world rife with slavery, a Solar might find a similar ability useful. I can also envision it being used against abusive prison guards and toturers.


-S

 

[Flagg]

rhm... anyways. Unleashing the Righteous Balance, or something maybe not quite so pompous, but with connotations to balance or retribution?

I'm kind of leaning toward something more metaphorical, such as "Anvil-Crushes-the-Hammer Technique"


-S

 

[Solfi]

Ah, that works too ... I was influenced by rereading Terry Goodkinds 'Sword of Truth'-series. Magic in his world is all about balance (action - reaction), that sort of thing.

 

[Persell]

Stillborn,


Hmm, they way I'm reading it is that a single blow that can inflict multiple health levels can be absorbed by use of this Charm, and that the Charm will cost a flat mote cost regardless of number of actual health levels inflicted. If this is the case I'd introduce a willpower cost, and drop the 1/scene restriction.


To determine a flat rate mote cost I'll try to assess it using a pseudo mathematical approach. Caveat: I'm only really attempting to present a method to getting to a conclusion not to say that my approach or any other is better or more logical or more mathematical or whatever…


Step 1:


Solar damage effects have an average of what? motes per health level.


Fiery Arrow Attack = 2 motes for Essence dmg


Dazzling Flare Attack = 1 mote per 2 dmg


Hungry Tiger Tech = 1 mote for variable damage


Fire and Stones Strike = 1 mote per health level


Thunderbolt Attack Prana = 5 motes, 1 will (doubles dmg after rolled)


Leaping Tiger Attack = 3 motes, 1 will (doubles post soak damage dice)


Hmm, there are other Charms that have damage as part of their overall effect and they can vary much more in cost terms, however, damaging effects on their own are not very costly. When adding other restrictions to the Charm then the cost should be reduced, imho.


Step 2:


So I go off and look for similar Charm effects for all Exalt types and look at their costs.


Sidereal: Shield of Mars = 5 motes, 1 willpower. Interestingly it's an more versatile version of the Charm you propose Stillborn… *shrug*… I'll take the cost for this charm to be an upper limit benchmark, as it is my opinion that Sidereal Charms have similar mote cost to Solar Charms.


DB: Safety Among Enemies = 3 motes


Hmm, there are other damage reflection, redirection effects out there but I don't believe I need to hunt them all down. These two certainly don't cost much in terms of either motes or restrictions.


Conclusion:


It appears that the Charm you propose is underpowered given the restrictions placed on it, and I'd like to suggest something like Shield of Mars as a jumping point for power level similarity even if the themes differ. Damage effects on their own don't cost more than an apparent average of 1 mote per HEALTH LEVEL, and in many cases average out at less than that. Therefore, I'd suggest a 3 mote, 1 willpower cost and a slight change to the mechanic. It's reflexive and the damage isn't stored instead it's inflicted at the same time.


If the important part of the mechanic is that the Solar can store the damage to inflict upon the 'target' later, while not present, I'd first say that I consider this to be Sidereal in nature. I'd probably leave the cost at 3 motes, 1 willpower and remove the once per scene restriction. Instead, I'd introduction a restriction that says use of this Charm must be declared before attack dice are rolled. It's a gamble, you commit 3 motes for 1 health level, or possibly many more. If you want to reduce the 'risk' then increase the cost, for example, 5 motes, 1 willpower to activate before damage dice are rolled. 8 motes, 1 willpower to activate after health levels are inflicted. If there is an added requirement that the Solar 'touch' the 'target' then I'd probably eliminate the willpower cost AND reduce the mote cost as the cause/effect relationship here is makes this a pretty specialised charm. Thus ... 2 motes for before attack, 3 motes for before damage, and 5 motes for actual health levels suffered.


It may require an activation roll of some kind, as both the damage effects offered above require one, with a further limit on how many health levels can be 'saved' in each instance, which would probably reduce the cost further, but not by much. This is in keeping with the other Charms of the Endurance tree as well.


Or something like that.


Fwiw, this interests me because one of my players has a soak/healer type who is looking to improve her character's effectiveness in battle without becoming 'combative'. Therefore I hope you finish it and publish it so that I can then mangle it into something I'd like to see is my games So, comparing it against the Lore Charm, Wound Accepting Tech. and considering its increased restrictions, by reversing that charm and adding your suggested restrictions I'd say 1 mote/health level, 1 willpower.


HTH

 

[Flagg]

If this is the case I'd introduce a willpower cost, and drop the 1/scene restriction.

I don't want to drop the once-per-scene limit for a specific reason. This isn't meant to be a "combat" Charm, per se. The idea isn't for a Solar in a fight to take a few hits, then hit back really hard. The idea is to endure a long series of beatings, then, finally, hit back REALLY hard.

Fiery Arrow Attack = 2 motes for Essence dmg
Dazzling Flare Attack = 1 mote per 2 dmg


Hungry Tiger Tech = 1 mote for variable damage


Fire and Stones Strike = 1 mote per health level


Thunderbolt Attack Prana = 5 motes, 1 will (doubles dmg after rolled)


Leaping Tiger Attack = 3 motes, 1 will (doubles post soak damage dice)

None of these Charms (IIRC) inflict unsoakable damage, so any direct comparisons are not apt.

Sidereal: Shield of Mars = 5 motes, 1 willpower. Interestingly it's an more versatile version of the Charm you propose Stillborn…

To be honest, I've deliberately forgotten about most of the canonical Sid Charms, and I don't have the book handy. Could you give me a breif rundown on this one?

It appears that the Charm you propose is underpowered given the restrictions placed on it

Something important to note when comparing this to other Charms is that the minimums will be in the ballpark of Essence 3, Endurance 3. It's hardly supposed to be a top-tier effect.

If the important part of the mechanic is that the Solar can store the damage to inflict upon the 'target' later, while not present, I'd first say that I consider this to be Sidereal in nature.

No, it is not.

If there is an added requirement that the Solar 'touch' the 'target' then I'd probably eliminate the willpower cost AND reduce the mote cost as the cause/effect relationship here is makes this a pretty specialised charm.

I was thinking of something like "on a successful hand-to-hand attack".

It may require an activation roll of some kind, as both the damage effects offered above require one, with a further limit on how many health levels can be 'saved' in each instance

Since the proposed mechanic forces you to commit essence for each application of the Charm, it's effectively capped by how many motes you have to spare. I don't think any other cap is necessary. Part of the thought I'm putting into the cost is to see how the cost will affect how many times it can be used.

Fwiw, this interests me because one of my players has a soak/healer type who is looking to improve her character's effectiveness in battle without becoming 'combative'.

I don't see this as being particularly useful for a soaker (because it only works on damage you don't soak), or a healer (because it's a massive damage-inflicting Charm), but whatever floats your boat.


Thanks for the input


-S

 

[DarkProphet]

I'd add in a willpower cost to it as well.  Perhaps reflecting the Solar using their strength of will to push the pain and damage aside to be used against the target at a later time. (or some explanation along those lines).


If not at the time of storing the damage, then perhaps when they unleash it, although that'd make things a bit confusing for some people.


I'd also have an option where they could store it beyond the original time limit (you have have this already and I just missed it when reading your description).  So the scene ends, but they've yet to have a chance to dole out their retribution, so they pay some essence (perhaps 1/2 of the original cost or just pay for the entire charm agan) and they can store it for another scene.


As it is, though, it looks pretty good to me, other than that I'd have it cost a willpower as well.