Other A serious question to atheists...

[Zombocalypse]

Not sure love is the best example. Might be difficult to explain, though I'd argue its a case of linguistic insufficiency.

Scientific studies of love both on the biological and anthropological levels have set up a number of ways to understand it both chemically and culturally. Its not exactly the romanticized enigma we've made it out to be.

The thing that makes love inexplicable is the fact that even though Pamela Anderson is universally attractive, we don't all fall in love with her. Instead, we fall for those regular people without any reason to. We see it everywhere, people falling for those who are not attractive.

I don't think science can explain that.

 

[Ironrot]

YES
YES
also
YES
THAT is a point that's really difficult to understand.
Neither side can prove their side.
But all the same, I'd like to know what you believe, Iron.

I'd like to talk about that last line, really.
My world view, and the reason I don't believe in God is pretty simple.

I believe in things which have a need to exist. This is need in the sense of scientific model, but don't think that I mean scientific as the psuedo religion some people treat it as.

Simply put. For me to believe something exists, it has to explain something in my experience.

The notion of God explains nothing to me. Thus there is no reason for his existence.

Maybe I'm not taking your line-of-site comment literally enough, but I dislike the idea that there needs to be more to life. I'd also like to suggest that rejection is ever part as meaningful as belief in spirituality

 

[Vudukudu]

The thing that makes love inexplicable is the fact that even though Pamela Anderson is universally attractive, we don't all fall in love with her. Instead, we fall for those regular people without any reason to. We see it everywhere, people falling for those who are not attractive.

I don't think science can explain this.

It can, with remarkable ease. Love isn't based purely on appearances. And there IS a reason you fall in love with people. Ask anyone why they love the person they do and not their neighbor. 100% guarantee they'll be able to explain.

 

[Zombocalypse]

It can, with remarkable ease. Love isn't based purely on appearances. And there IS a reason you fall in love with people. Ask anyone why they love the person they do and not their neighbor. 100% guarantee they'll be able to explain.

Why did Britney Spears fall for Kevin Federline? The guy was just a backup dancer. Britney could've fallen for another A list celebrity.

I also want to clarify that I'm talking about romantic love. Not sibling love or parental love.

Show me an article of scientists explaining love and I may change my mind.

 

[Hall Kervean]

Ironrot
No no, like do you believe in microevolution or what.
How do ye think everything came into existence.

 

[Zombocalypse]

Ironrot

Hi there. I suggest you look up the cosmological argument for God's existence.

Simply put, if there is no creator, there will never be a creation. We're here because we had a cause to be here. That cause is God.

And also, where you see intelligebility, there is an intelligence behind it. I learned that from Ravi Zacharias. A computer can never be created by a random explosion. A creator created it. This is the same with nature. It's impossible for nature to come into existence out of nothing.

 

[Vudukudu]

Why did Britney Spears fall for Kevin Federline? The guy was just a backup dancer. Britney could've fallen for another A list celebrity.

I also want to clarify that I'm talking about romantic love. Not sibling love or parental love.

Show me an article of scientists explaining love and I may change my mind.

Here's science talking about it. I haven't read the actual study, but here is science taking a shot at explaining it.

http://commons.pacificu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=ijurca

Further, psychologists have already figured out specifically where in the brain and what chemical processes pertain to romantic love. Been studied for about the last thirty years.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120620101011.htm

 

[Zombocalypse]

Here's science talking about it. I haven't read the actual study, but here is science taking a shot at explaining it.

http://commons.pacificu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1036&context=ijurca

Further, psychologists have already figured out specifically where in the brain and what chemical processes pertain to romantic love. Been studied for about the last thirty years.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120620101011.htm

I'm not gonna read that because I already know that whatever it is, it's wrong. The fact of the matter is, I'm right because God is with me and you're wrong because you have no faith.

Also, I am not serious. I'm only joking.

 

[Scattered Ambitions]

I seriously don't believe there is a god. That might be because I was raised in an atheist household, but it's what I believe. Also, I don't really like most of the Christian community, and I have some problems with their morals. Not all, but some.

 

[Zombocalypse]

I have some problems with their morals.

What's wrong with not murdering and not stealing?

And what's wrong with loving your neighbors as yourself?

lol

 

[Ironrot]

Ironrot
No no, like do you believe in microevolution or what.
How do ye think everything came into existence.

Big bang as far as the universe having an origin point.
Evolution, yeah, pretty standard model

 

[Hall Kervean]

Fantabulous.
Macro or Micro?
I assume micro.

 

[Ironrot]

You'd need to run me through them. I would also assume micro.

 

[Vudukudu]

What's wrong with not murdering and not stealing?

And what's wrong with loving your neighbors as yourself?

lol

Those things are all well and good.

1. But a large portion of the African slave trade was ethically justified using the Bible.
2. Jesus has a couple racist episodes where he has to be convinced to help out people who aren't "the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:21-27)
3. Can't seem to make up his mind on the family thing. Urges everyone to hate their families so they'll love Him more than them (Matthew 10:35, I believe?) and then also says something about how children who curse their parents ought to be killed (Matthew 15:3). Even disregarding the switching position thing, its a little disconcerting that Jesus directly advocates for killing a large number of American adolescents today.
4. Peter and Paul are misogynists.

And that's just the New Testament. The Old Testament is all about punishing people who don't deserve it, ethnic cleansing, suggests that raping female captives during war is okay, killing prisoners, and condones slavery.

 

[Ironrot]

Those things are all well and good.

1. But a large portion of the African slave trade was ethically justified using the Bible.
2. Jesus has a couple racist episodes where he has to be convinced to help out people who aren't "the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:21-27)
3. Can't seem to make up his mind on the family thing. Urges everyone to hate their families so they'll love Him more than them (Matthew 10:35, I believe?) and then also says something about how children who curse their parents ought to be killed (Matthew 15:3). Even disregarding the switching position thing, its a little disconcerting that Jesus directly advocates for killing a large number of American adolescents today.
4. Peter and Paul are misogynists.

And that's just the New Testament. The Old Testament is all about punishing people who don't deserve it, ethnic cleansing, suggests that raping female captives during war is okay, killing prisoners, and condones slavery.

It's worth noting that the Bible is mostly non-literal. A huge number of religious issues are actually cultural issues justified using religion. And if religion didn't suit the party, they would just change their interpretation.

 

[Ironrot]

I seriously don't believe there is a god. That might be because I was raised in an atheist household, but it's what I believe. Also, I don't really like most of the Christian community, and I have some problems with their morals. Not all, but some.

Interesting question might be, do you feel like this meant you could make your own choice or were you still indoctrinated like most children

 

[Collinbu98]

I can say with absolute certainty and comfort that there is not a god and if there was it certainly wouldn't be the one the Bible describes, because the Bible is fundamentally contradictory and nonsensical. I can say this with certainty because I tried so hard for so long to believe in a God, and if there was any chance at all that he was an actual, logical possibility I would most certainly still be a Christian simply because of how much easier it would make life. And I will happily debate any reason you have that would support God, because odds are I've already thought of and dismissed that.

 

[Ironrot]

I can say with absolute certainty and comfort that there is not a god and if there was it certainly wouldn't be the one the Bible describes, because the Bible is fundamentally contradictory and nonsensical. I can say this with certainty because I tried so hard for so long to believe in a God, and if there was any chance at all that he was an actual, logical possibility I would most certainly still be a Christian simply because of how much easier it would make life. And I will happily debate any reason you have that would support God, because odds are I've already thought of and dismissed that.

I know that feeling mate, like, all of them. But keep in mind that's just because you are certain, does not mean you're right.

 

[Ironrot]

Fantabulous.
Macro or Micro?
I assume micro.

I looked them up. Firstly, they are not mutually exclusive. Definitely micro, probably macro but I'd have to read more

 

[Gui]

For me it was just the idea of a specific god. Or at least the Christian or Catholic version of him. Being raised Catholic I liked the idea of saints, people who we or I assumed actually existed but still graced us or I with their presence and protection. That idea was OK with me since I compared it to when you loose a loved one but still talk to then either in your head or wherever you may be. Once I was older I just fell out of religion and realised that apart from contradictory why IF a higher being existed would it be that one specific god. Oddly enough I recently started getting into Greek mythology. So I sometimes pray to certain gods and offer tributes. All of this in private of course. Is it any better than what I use to do, no but it does give me some comfort in the odd very slim and unrealistic chance that in right...it be cool to kick it with Hermes in mount Olympus

 

[Scattered Ambitions]

Interesting question might be, do you feel like this meant you could make your own choice or were you still indoctrinated like most children

I feel like I can make my own choices when it comes to religion, and if I choose to be part of something that is different than my family, they will accept me.

 

[Hall Kervean]

Those things are all well and good.

1. But a large portion of the African slave trade was ethically justified using the Bible.
2. Jesus has a couple racist episodes where he has to be convinced to help out people who aren't "the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:21-27)
3. Can't seem to make up his mind on the family thing. Urges everyone to hate their families so they'll love Him more than them (Matthew 10:35, I believe?) and then also says something about how children who curse their parents ought to be killed (Matthew 15:3). Even disregarding the switching position thing, its a little disconcerting that Jesus directly advocates for killing a large number of American adolescents today.
4. Peter and Paul are misogynists.

And that's just the New Testament. The Old Testament is all about punishing people who don't deserve it, ethnic cleansing, suggests that raping female captives during war is okay, killing prisoners, and condones slavery.

K, so.
1.
There's two kinds of slaves; indentured servants and slave slaves.
Indentured servants were basically servants who were forced to work if they couldn't pay off a debt. Once the debt was paid off, or seven years had passed (whichever came first), they were free to leave. They COULD stay, but then they'd be a servant for life.
Slave slave is what we think of nowadays.
2. (couple means two, you've given one example)
He didn't need convincing. He was just telling his disciples that the reason he wasn't doing it wasn't because she was annoying, it was because he was sent to the Israelites. It happens often; but most of the time, he was moved by their faith so much that he helped them.
That's how I can best explain it off the top of my head.
3.
10:37 sums it up better. Basically, he's saying he needs to be the top priority, even more so than the family. You need to love him more than your own family, so much more that your love for your family will look like hate compared to the love you show for him.
Also, it was 15:4, and he was quoting the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, the law said that anyone who disrespected their parents should be put to death.
4.
One was a fisherman who had to be taught many things by God, like how Samaritans were people too. Saul was an unbeliever, so we can't go off that, but upon changing his name and believing, I doubt he ever encouraged misogyny.


Examples of someone undeserving and innocent being punished?
Ethnic cleansing of who?
Canaanites had been warned and warned and warned by God for four centuries, but they refused to turn from their wrongdoing. That's like letting Hitler do his thing for 400 years, if you want an equivalent.
Never said that raping female war captives was ok. Sometimes it said you could take them as wives, but this was also in the days of arranged marriages, so it wasn't that bad.
There were only certain times where God said to do that. Those were times when the people had done something especially wrong. Canaanites, for instance, had been warned for 400 years to stop killing each other, pillaging, raping, etc. and they didn't.
It does not condone the type of slavery we think of today. God recognized it would happen, and so put in a few extra requirements, rules, and regulations for those slaves that did exist, but never condoned the act of it himself in the Bible. By adding requirements about slavery, he actually made their condition better.

 

[Vudukudu]

K, so.
1.
There's two kinds of slaves; indentured servants and slave slaves.
Indentured servants were basically servants who were forced to work if they couldn't pay off a debt. Once the debt was paid off, or seven years had passed (whichever came first), they were free to leave. They COULD stay, but then they'd be a servant for life.
Slave slave is what we think of nowadays.
2. (couple means two, you've given one example)
He didn't need convincing. He was just telling his disciples that the reason he wasn't doing it wasn't because she was annoying, it was because he was sent to the Israelites. It happens often; but most of the time, he was moved by their faith so much that he helped them.
That's how I can best explain it off the top of my head.
3.
10:37 sums it up better. Basically, he's saying he needs to be the top priority, even more so than the family. You need to love him more than your own family, so much more that your love for your family will look like hate compared to the love you show for him.
Also, it was 15:4, and he was quoting the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, the law said that anyone who disrespected their parents should be put to death.
4.
One was a fisherman who had to be taught many things by God, like how Samaritans were people too. Saul was an unbeliever, so we can't go off that, but upon changing his name and believing, I doubt he ever encouraged misogyny.


Examples of someone undeserving and innocent being punished?
Ethnic cleansing of who?
Canaanites had been warned and warned and warned by God for four centuries, but they refused to turn from their wrongdoing. That's like letting Hitler do his thing for 400 years, if you want an equivalent.
Never said that raping female war captives was ok. Sometimes it said you could take them as wives, but this was also in the days of arranged marriages, so it wasn't that bad.
There were only certain times where God said to do that. Those were times when the people had done something especially wrong. Canaanites, for instance, had been warned for 400 years to stop killing each other, pillaging, raping, etc. and they didn't.
It does not condone the type of slavery we think of today. God recognized it would happen, and so put in a few extra requirements, rules, and regulations for those slaves that did exist, but never condoned the act of it himself in the Bible. By adding requirements about slavery, he actually made their condition better.

K, so.

1. Slavery is slavery, no matter how you spin it. The commodification of living human beings is utterly repulsive and god gave it a thumbs up. Historical interpretations of the text for over 1000 years justified what we think of as slavery.
2. Its a nice attempt at explanation, but again - Jesus refuses service to someone because they're not an Israelite, then changes his mind once confronted about it by his peers. Its the ancient equivalent of "I'm not going to serve you because you're _____." the other cashier gives the guy a funny look, and then he takes their order.
3. Still advocates for murdering children. I, for one, am not fond of the idea of being divinely mandated to put a bullet through a future child's head just because he/she looked at me funny, or else I go to hell.
4. The misogyny stems from the New Testament House Code, which, though its historical context is obvious, is still coming from a pair of Apostles after they've witnessed the alleged acts of god.

Punishment of innocents: Give Exodus a read. For the decision of the Pharaoh to enslave the Hebrews (who.. God put there in the first place), God sends a variety of plagues that mostly inflict suffering on random Egyptians (who, judging by the way the enslavement of the Hebrews is described, mostly didn't have anything to do with them) and mostly doesn't actually harm the Pharaoh. Also, "God hardened the Pharaoh's heart" repeatedly despite his willingness to let the Hebrews go, then punished them because he took away their autonomy. Goes on to say things roughly like "I wanna be damn sure the Egyptians know I'm the best god."

Ethnic Cleansing: Read the whole thing with the Amalekites. God demands the Israelite's commit genocide, rather than just conquest, against a foe who was probably acting defensively when they saw a massive army of people crossing through their land. Relying on a cultural defense here justifies the actions of the Amalekites, considering that the Hebrews were almost certainly plundering their land whilst they traveled through it. "God warned them" just makes it religious cleansing, the modern day equivalent of rounding up every Muslim on Earth and shooting them because we believe different things. What sort of God, with apparently documented miracles, can't convince someone to follow him? He's used a number of prophets, so clearly he's got no problem with direct intervention. Maybe he just didn't think some kinds of people were worth keeping alive?

"Well, you see, kidnapping women and forcing them to marry you is acceptable. I mean, look, its fine to have my family slaughtered around me, be set upon by an army renowned for its pillaging and raping, and then tied up, carried dozens if not hundreds of miles away from people who I know or even speak my language, and then forced to remain in the household of the guy who did this all to me until I die. After all, my father married me off without asking me first, but at least the guy he chose spoke my language, had the same customs, and had a vested interest in my well-being."

"Killing prisoners is okay if they're doing what we do to other people."


Ultimately what this all comes down to is that people did some morally horrific things and used a deity to justify it. Slavery (even Slavery Lite TM) is never okay. Not today, not 2000 years ago, not 5000 years ago. Kidnapping women and forcing them to marry you at sword point is not okay. Punishing entire civilizations for the actions of their military class who do what they want, with no respect for the wishes of their common populace, is similarly not okay. Saying kids should die because they don't like their parents is not okay. Turning women, roughly 50% of the human population, into household property, is not okay.

If we followed the suggested rules put forth in the Bible, it would most likely have been within the law to commit utter genocide against Germans for World War 2, for Americans to wage retributive war against England and purge it to the last man, woman, child, or animal after destroying every ounce of their property, for Americans to ship hundreds of Vietnamese woman home to put in non-consensual marriages, and so forth. I think we can agree that none of these things are good ideas.

Just because these things were cultural practices that we don't do anymore does not mean its okay that god said they were okay at some point. If you want to have an all-benevolent, all-powerful creator, be my guest. Just make sure they're within five thousand miles of those standards.

 

[Ironrot]

I feel like I can make my own choices when it comes to religion, and if I choose to be part of something that is different than my family, they will accept me.

That's good. My parents weren't particularly religious but I attended a Christian primary school. After leaving (as an atheist) i later felt pretty mistreated by the way they spoke about their and other religions

 

[archur]

If you are calling for belief, I would say that I was once an atheist. I didn't understand religion, the concept of god(s) or his/their existence(s), or his/their power upon the earth. Now, I simply have stopped caring about the concept of religion. Not for fear of big G, or in spite of a holy divinity, but for the sway the word of a being more powerful than man has on people. It's destructive force, and ability to sway people on a whim because their god demands, or spoke directly with a priest or prophet of some sort.

No, I don't hate religion. I only find it intriguing. It was created to calm people, mold them into better human beings. 10 Commandments? Notice how they are held up to a moral standard that most people stand by, even I follow them, for it is simply what is 'right.' Now, religions such as Christianity and all of its sects are commercialized, monopolized, by the church. It's somewhat disgusting, to see such good things go awry. Look at the Westboro Chruch! A disgusting perversion of beliefs to uphold their own agenda.

Now for myself, no, I don't believe that there is a god out there. There might be. Who knows? Until the time I see floating heads in the sky controlling the weather and shouting "SHOW ME WHAT YOU GOT", I think I am fine being 'godless' for now, leaving good will and luck to beings such as Karma, and a being of judgement, who merely watches from afar, giving and taking according to what one has exerted unto the world.

That's as deep into the pool as i'm going man, i'm not going past my eyeballs.