A Rose by any other name...

3. mara can't come into creation just because she wants to. Without sorcery around and thaumaturgy still not developed she just can't come around for a visit.
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Actually one of the books (GoD I think) clearly states that the Yozis can permit their servants to come and go from malfeas at will. The only thing that's keeping the 1st - 3rd circle demons in malfeas is Cecyline and she's only doing that because she's jealous, but even so, she does sometimes allow demons out of malfeas for what could be described as "Official Business"
 
Jack said:
3. mara can't come into creation just because she wants to. Without sorcery around and thaumaturgy still not developed she just can't come around for a visit.
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Actually one of the books (GoD I think) clearly states that the Yozis can permit their servants to come and go from malfeas at will. The only thing that's keeping the 1st - 3rd circle demons in malfeas is Cecyline and she's only doing that because she's jealous, but even so, she does sometimes allow demons out of malfeas for what could be described as "Official Business"
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That would go directly against their surrender deal with the solars. Still even if she could slip out there is no reason that the unconquered sun involves her into bringing sorcery to his own.
 
Yes, it says that she got the Sorcery from US. And the DB's says Mela got the sorcery from the five elemental dragons. It's all stories. I agree that there's no hard evidence on the fact that Mara would be the demon in question. I was simply quoting from another forum, I myself had not read about it.


The only thing I stated was that the Scarlet Empress got her higher sorcery schools from the rumored Mantle of Brigid which she is said to possess. Other storytellers might, of course, change that completely and give her some real celestial magic. It just goes against the whole DB concept, in my opinion.


But yes, Gods practice sorcery. It's stated in several places of the Black and White Treatise. ( p. 15-16 for example )


( More proof, in 2:e Edition setting, page 12, Black and White Treatise:


"Some traces of genuine history do exist. The Scarlet Empress wore the crimson Mantle of the First Sorcerer."


If that isn't proof enough that she used the mantle, I don't know what you guys might need.
 
There is also a sidebar saying that the mantle might do nothing at all... so why exactly do you think it is so out of question that she used something else?


And furthermore. The dragon blooded had every reason to say it was mela, but you know, people say mela is younger than sorcery in a way that she was not able to be the first sorceror. You know, she after all lived sometime during the first age, when sorcery was devised at the beginning of it. People who remember.


It all comes down that people read " a lovely hooved spirit " and go nuts like "whoa, got to be mara, she after all has hooves, too". So do stag and deer. nobody has the suspicion that those brought sorcery either. As far as I remember, mara is not even all that good a sorceror if she is one at all. She is no spirit either.


And really. If it was a primodial plan to corrupt the exalted, would they  really sent one of their own? You really think they are THAT stupid?


The idea that mara was one of those who brought sorcery has so many holes, its like swiss cheese. and the swiss are not especially popular around here ^^
 
Safim.


While there is no official word from WW about just who taught the what to who in terms of First Exalted Sorcerer... there is this little article that was valid for 1st edition.


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... sOfSorcery


And it's one that I think it's possible and likely. As much as the various stories about the origins of something that started up during an age now long lost after several apocalyses.
 
Yes I noticed the similarities like anyone else. That does still not explain the gaping holes in that story.
 
*shrugs*


I think it's left wide open as much as the 'Scarlet Empress being sexed by Ebon Dragon' in 1e. People seem to have no problems with that. Mind you. it's pretty much unofficially endorsed by WW.
 
No that is not nearly on the same level. The scarlet empress is in Malfeas, at least in the fiction of a chapter opening. The mara thing is not nearly as clear. There is a huge difference between "we happen to have some coincediences which might be used by clever storytellers to make a plot out of it" to "description of the ancient dragon blooded woman being sexed up while her wedding ceremony is being prepared".


But then, I do not really want to argue, I just don't like the sometimes obscure ways people interpret stuff they'd like to see into canon and then claiming rights that it is exactly that way, no matter what gaping holes in the story they are not able to fill.
 
Okay, I'll go ahead and show my lack of 1e knowledge. Where exactly does all this stuff about the Empress and the Ebon Dragon, of who I know almost nothing, come from? What book?
 
Okay' date=' I'll go ahead and show my lack of 1e knowledge. Where exactly does all this stuff about the Empress and the Ebon Dragon, of who I know almost nothing, come from? What book?[/quote']
It's alluded to twice (I believe) in the 1E DB book, during the short stories that preface the chapters.


First, the Ebon Dragon is shown with a chained female captive, with the heavy implication that it's ol' whatserface. Second (and this one I remember less clearly, so please correct me if necessary), Mnemon gets the low-down on what happened to Mom from a second circle demon that she summons using the Emerald Thurible.
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In the 1E DB book, at the end, it shows a figure hanging by some chains (I believe) and the Ebon Dragon entwined around her.  It's either in the DB book or Aspect Book: Earth that talks about Memnon finding out from a demon what happened to her mother.


Because the Scarlet Empress has been captured by the Ebon Dragon and is trapped in Malfeas the Sidereals cannot divine her fate, since Malfeas, as well as the Underworld, is outside the perview of fate.
 
Found both of those stories in the 1e DB book (thanks Flagg). The Memnon summons Istar to inform her about the Ebon Dragon and then the other is the last story before the end of the book. Are there any other references elsewhere?
 
That mnemon story also, mentions something about Mnemon 'not wanting to follow in her mothers footsteps too closely' when she is summoning that demon - but correct me if I am wrong. Gave me the impression when reading it, that the Empress got too far into the whole demon summoning thing for her own good.....
 
Amusingly, if the Empress had both the mantle AND the thurible... she could summon 3 circle demons... ^_^
 
Haku said:
Amusingly, if the Empress had both the mantle AND the thurible... she could summon 3 circle demons... ^_^
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Unless, like hearthstones, they don't stack.
 
Oh... but they would... the mantle allows her to do sorcerery one level up. which equals 2nd circle summoning... and with the thurible, it'd boost that level up one more....


Mind you, I can't see a db, even the empress, with enough motes to successfully summon and bind the demon.
 
Haku said:
Oh... but they would... the mantle allows her to do sorcerery one level up. which equals 2nd circle summoning... and with the thurible, it'd boost that level up one more....
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Unless.... THEY DON'T STACK.


Nothing you just said addresses that.
 
Why wouldn't they stack? ^_^


Althou... the worrying thing is when a Solar anathema gets their grubby paws on the thurible and tries to summon the next level up.
 
The entry on the Ebon Dragon in the 1e GoD mentions that he is spending time preparing for his happy married life with his new bride, but it never mentions the Empress specifically.
 
Haku said:
Althou... the worrying thing is when a Solar anathema gets their grubby paws on the thurible and tries to summon the next level up.
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Ebon Dragon: *Appears with all of his lower souls* HEY HEY HEY
 
I think that WOULD be an amusing thing to do for an 'end game' scenario kind of deal... Primordial War Redux! The first one was so big, so bad that we HAD to bring you the sequel.


Now, double the fun, double the excitment, double the danger.
 
It would be an interesting reason to have the DeathLords and Abyssals fighting side by side with the Solars, Lunars, Sidereals and DragonBlooded. Everybody would want the same thing, just for different reasons.
 
Ah, yes, the wonderful reason to fight,'I don't want to be the bitch to demons...their my slaves, not the other way around!'
 
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