[2E] Perfect defense Flaws

[Flagg]

I'm not clear at all on when the conditions listed in the sidebar apply.


For instance, the Valor Flaw says you must keep moving towards the most dangerous opponent. When? At all times? Once you've invoked the Charm? Before you invoke the Charm?


The text is terribly vague.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

The Valor flaw states on any tic which it is possible without using magic, until their DV refreshes twice.


The Compassion flaw that it is only usable when in the presence of someone or something they care about.


Temperance, no movement until one's DV refreshes twice.


And the Conviction flaw does not allow the charm to function on actions in conflict with one's motivation.


On the whole, I've found all 4 rather straightforward. I've been playing a character who makes rather heavy use of a Valor flawed Seven Shadow Evasion, and well...it's been close with the most dangerous foe at any chance one has. Usually not too onerous for someone so over valorous as to never consider any other option anyhow...but if you want to clean off the weaker minions first perhaps a bit troublesome. And if you actually need to run...well, inconcievable.

 

[Flagg]

The Valor flaw states on any tic which it is possible without using magic' date=' until their DV refreshes twice.[/quote']
Right... but WHEN do they have to do this?

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

From the point at which you use the charm until your DV refreshes twice. Since a move action is possible on any tic... then you've got to move towards the toughest foe on any tic. Or course if you're already intending to close with them anyhow...not too bad. On the whole I generally find the lack of the option to move is more troublesome...as well as being rather senseless for Dodge.


Editted to note the twice limitation.

 

[Solfi]

Below is a link to an article on the subject of the Four Flaws of Invulnerability by Nephilpal (since the damn bb-code won't recognise the link properly, remember to cut/paste):


http://wiki.white-wolf.com/exalted/inde ... _of_(Solar)_Invulnerability

 

[Flagg]

From the point at which you use the charm until your DV refreshes twice.

Where does it actually say this?


Also, what happens if you DON'T do that? You already avoided the attack.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

I believe it is a form of compulsion affect to do so. You don't have an option if there is a foe avaiable to close on. The link Solfi supplied appears to back such up.

 

[memesis]

Also, what happens if you DON'T do that? You already avoided the attack.

If you don't, then your Storyteller says "you the player are doing it wrong", because it's essentially a form of cheating.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Here, I'll give some examples:


Say we have a character...for this example I'll use one I have in my current mixed chronicle:


Steel Sky is a Dawn Caste Solar. Before his exaltation he was a member of the 7th Legion, a mortal Armiger with the duty to guard a Sorceror Technician from threats...and put an end to the same if it became apparent they were likely to either turn traitor, or be captured by an enemy capable of forcing 7th Legion secrets from them. A mortal Martial Artist, schooled in the Even Blade style, he exalted as a Solar, yada, yada.


The important things here are his Motivation, and his Intimacies.


His Motivation is to Bring about the Revival of the Shogunate


His primary Intimacies are: His Lunar Wife, the 7th Legion, The Azure Crane variant of Even Blade style, and his Reaper Daiklaive.


Now, he already has Seven Shadow Evasion with the Valor flaw selected. This means at any time he uses it, until his DV refreshes twice, he must close on the strongest apparent threat. This limits his options in battle, but as a valorous warrior, it supports his heroism. Still, he finds that there are downsides, as he cannot hold a place in a defensive line, and tends to go haring off in battle...possibly against the orders of superiors...not a good option for a soldier. Taking this into account, he considers purchasing Seven Shadow Evasion a second time...this time with a different flaw. Looking at them, he considers the Compassion flaw. A generally caring and kind hearted soul, he is often accompanied by his Lunar wife...and his well cared for blade is always at his side...so long as he can manage such. Still, if someone should slay his beloved wife, or he should be caught away from his blade and other members of the 7th Legion...this will not offer him protection...save perhaps if acting directly in support of the Azure Crane variant of the Even Blade style...and perhaps not even then, as such is neither a person, nor object. Noting the possible flaws here, he considers the Conviction flaw. Thinking things over he realizes that it is rather broadly useful...as it only fails when he acts against his primary goal...still, when faced with Immaculates huntin an Anathema, he might find this defense useless...as hunting the Anathema was supported by the Shogunate...which he is loyal to. Noting the danger here, he looks at the Temperance flaw...and realizes that as a close combat specialist with little skill with ranged armaments standing one's ground is frought with peril...as foes can simply stay beyond the reach of his blade and strike him from afar...wearing his guard down while safe from his own attacks. Finally taking all three into consideration he finally settles on the Compassion flaw, deciding that loyalty and love are more important to him than even his motivation, even as they often support such.

 

[NamelessJoe]

Here, I'll give some examples:
Say we have a character...for this example I'll use one I have in my current mixed chronicle:


Steel Sky is a Dawn Caste Solar. Before his exaltation he was a member of the 7th Legion, a mortal Armiger with the duty to guard a Sorceror Technician from threats...and put an end to the same if it became apparent they were likely to either turn traitor, or be captured by an enemy capable of forcing 7th Legion secrets from them. A mortal Martial Artist, schooled in the Even Blade style, he exalted as a Solar, yada, yada.


The important things here are his Motivation, and his Intimacies.


His Motivation is to Bring about the Revival of the Shogunate


His primary Intimacies are: His Lunar Wife, the 7th Legion, The Azure Crane variant of Even Blade style, and his Reaper Daiklaive.


Now, he already has Seven Shadow Evasion with the Valor flaw selected. This means at any time he uses it, until his DV refreshes twice, he must close on the strongest apparent threat. This limits his options in battle, but as a valorous warrior, it supports his heroism. Still, he finds that there are downsides, as he cannot hold a place in a defensive line, and tends to go haring off in battle...possibly against the orders of superiors...not a good option for a soldier. Taking this into account, he considers purchasing Seven Shadow Evasion a second time...this time with a different flaw. Looking at them, he considers the Compassion flaw. A generally caring and kind hearted soul, he is often accompanied by his Lunar wife...and his well cared for blade is always at his side...so long as he can manage such. Still, if someone should slay his beloved wife, or he should be caught away from his blade and other members of the 7th Legion...this will not offer him protection...save perhaps if acting directly in support of the Azure Crane variant of the Even Blade style...and perhaps not even then, as such is neither a person, nor object. Noting the possible flaws here, he considers the Conviction flaw. Thinking things over he realizes that it is rather broadly useful...as it only fails when he acts against his primary goal...still, when faced with Immaculates huntin an Anathema, he might find this defense useless...as hunting the Anathema was supported by the Shogunate...which he is loyal to. Noting the danger here, he looks at the Temperance flaw...and realizes that as a close combat specialist with little skill with ranged armaments standing one's ground is frought with peril...as foes can simply stay beyond the reach of his blade and strike him from afar...wearing his guard down while safe from his own attacks. Finally taking all three into consideration he finally settles on the Compassion flaw, deciding that loyalty and love are more important to him than even his motivation, even as they often support such.

As was asked before, an what page does it list that this is how the flaws of perfection work? now I guess I will answer it, the rule is listed in the sidebar on page 194 of the exalted main book.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

I'd figured if he'd read the text there...which he's commented on in his first quote...there's little purpose in telling him to re-read it. It seems pretty straight forward to me. Though Solfi's link is useful for illustrating such.

 

[Flagg]

I'm not saying anyone's wrong. I just don't see where the book says any of this. You're all making assumptions. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

P. 194


Valor Flaw:


The Exalt must move toward the opponent he considers most dangerous, on every tick where this is possible without magic, until his DV refreshes twice.


Ah...I don't see how that leaves anything to interpretation...you activate the charm. Thereafter, until your DV refreshes twice, you must close on the most dangerous foe. Done.


Temperance Flaw:


The Exalt cannot take movement actions such as move, dash, flight, teleportation or jumping until his DV refreshes twice.


Again...you use the charm. Thereafter one cannot move until their DV refreshes twice.


Compassion Flaw:


The Exalt can only use this charm when in the presence of someone or something he cares about.


Conviction Flaw:


This charm does not function when a Solar's actions are contrary to his Motivation. The storyteller should assume a Solar's actions qualify unless an enemy deliberatelly arranges for terms of conflict that dispirit and shake the purpose of the Exalt. The player can interpret it more strictly if desired.


All four seem pretty straightforward to me. The Conviction flaw the least so...and even that is rather simple...if only because of the assumption it's valid unless specifically engineered not.

 

[Flagg]

Ah...I don't see how that leaves anything to interpretation...you activate the charm. Thereafter' date=' until your DV refreshes twice, you must close on the most dangerous foe. Done.[/quote']
You're inserting the idea of "thereafter". The sidebar makes no mention of timing, or order of effects.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

You can't very well have done so in past ticks...and it states on every tick until your DV refreshes twice. That would logically be every tick from the point you use the charm...since it cannot be prior to such.

 

[memesis]

Ah...I don't see how that leaves anything to interpretation...you activate the charm. Thereafter' date=' until your DV refreshes twice, you must close on the most dangerous foe. Done.[/quote']
You're inserting the idea of "thereafter". The sidebar makes no mention of timing, or order of effects.

A little thought will reveal that any assumption EXCEPT FOR "thereafter" leads to perverse results.  Unless it's your goal to act as though the White Wolf developers are morons (in which case why run these forums?), why not accept the obvious answer?

 

[Ker'ion]

[conversational post deleted due to user having loaned his testes out to his spouse for most of the last decade]

 

[Persell]

I agree with ledaal and memesis. In my eyes the text is absolutely logical as of course you cannot go backwards in time and nobody is going to expect that from you while playing a rpg.

 

[Solfi]

[conversational post deleted due to user having loaned his testes out to his spouse for most of the last decade]

WTF?

 

[Flagg]

A little thought will reveal that any assumption EXCEPT FOR "thereafter" leads to perverse results.  Unless it's your goal to act as though the White Wolf developers are morons (in which case why run these forums?), why not accept the obvious answer?

I think that's a workable answer, but I would be more comfortable if there were a passage from the book that actually confirms this.


I suppose there isn't, in which case I can only point to poor writing.

 

[Persell]

Well the CHARM is what has the flaw, not the solar, so if you dont USE the charm the flaw would not apply. So it would only apply AFTER the charm is used. caps is for emphisis not rudness.

 

[memesis]

I suppose there isn't, in which case I can only point to poor writing.

Your finger seems permanently oriented in that direction anyway, so I'm not surprised.

 

[Flagg]

Your finger seems permanently oriented in that direction anyway, so I'm not surprised.

They could have made it explicitly clear with two or three extra words. It's not my fault if they're sloppy.