[1E] Air Dragon style question

[Persell]

I've got a question for those that may know of errata or statements from developers, or whatever that I don't.


Does Air Dragon Style have any incompatibility with armor?  I don't see it printed in the charms themselves, and tried looking in the Players Guide martial arts section, as well as the D-B errata.  I don't initially see anything prohibiting the use of armor in this style.


Also, not really directly related, but I don't feel like starting two topics - one of the Abyssals in my game is now learning Air Dragon Style.  He initially started out in Hungry Ghost Style, but it ended up being so underwhelming that he's moved on.  Has anyone ever seen a really kickass Hungry Ghost Style user?  I have to say the charms seem pretty weak for a celestial level martial art, but maybe I'm not seeing some brilliant strategy.

 

[memesis]

You can wear armor using the Air Dragon style.


What was the player's problem with Hungry Ghost?  In other words, tell us how he typically tried to use it.

 

[wordman]

All of the Immaculate styles can be used with armor. Fire Dragon Form specifically prevents armor, as do some Earth Dragon charms, I think.


Hungry Ghost is, oddly, more useful in combat with high Essence opponents, when essence generation and charm control become more important. It also tends to be more useful to lunars and sidereals, who have a harder time sustaining their pools and have other abilities that mesh well with the style. (A beastman with Savage Moonsilver Talons and Hungry Ghost Form can be very scary.)

 

[Sorrow]

Also, not really directly related, but I don't feel like starting two topics - one of the Abyssals in my game is now learning Air Dragon Style.  He initially started out in Hungry Ghost Style, but it ended up being so underwhelming that he's moved on.  Has anyone ever seen a really kickass Hungry Ghost Style user?  I have to say the charms seem pretty weak for a celestial level martial art, but maybe I'm not seeing some brilliant strategy.

When compared to other martial arts Hungry Ghost is weak. It is certainly weaker than all the dragon paths except maybe the water one. I think it is also weaker than the ones printed in players guide.


Perhaps another option would be using the ebon shadow style from the Night castebook. It's a cool style that can be used by a clever player to great effect and most importanly has a slightly Abyssal feel.


What's the players caste? If he is a Day Ebon Shadow is perfect for him, let him swap the charms from Hungry Ghost to Ebon shadow.

 

[Fruan]

When compared to other martial arts Hungry Ghost is weak. It is certainly weaker than all the dragon paths except maybe the water one.

I'm sorry... what? Water Dragon Style is dangerously powerful. The form adds to the accuracy of your attacks. It has a charm that lets you ignore all damage for a turn (For a hefty price, true). It has one of the best Extra action charms in print. If you can't see how these three things are really, really scary together, well...

 

[Persell]

Also, not really directly related, but I don't feel like starting two topics - one of the Abyssals in my game is now learning Air Dragon Style.  He initially started out in Hungry Ghost Style, but it ended up being so underwhelming that he's moved on.  Has anyone ever seen a really kickass Hungry Ghost Style user?  I have to say the charms seem pretty weak for a celestial level martial art, but maybe I'm not seeing some brilliant strategy.

When compared to other martial arts Hungry Ghost is weak. It is certainly weaker than all the dragon paths except maybe the water one. I think it is also weaker than the ones printed in players guide.


Perhaps another option would be using the ebon shadow style from the Night castebook. It's a cool style that can be used by a clever player to great effect and most importanly has a slightly Abyssal feel.


What's the players caste? If he is a Day Ebon Shadow is perfect for him, let him swap the charms from Hungry Ghost to Ebon shadow.

So you say hungry ghost is weak and suggest ebon shadow instead? the style with the least combat applications? I think your logic is pretty flawed there.


And for the record. Water dragon is prolly the single most powerful immaculate MA around.

 

[Sorrow]

When compared to other martial arts Hungry Ghost is weak. It is certainly weaker than all the dragon paths except maybe the water one.

I'm sorry... what? Water Dragon Style is dangerously powerful. The form adds to the accuracy of your attacks. It has a charm that lets you ignore all damage for a turn (For a hefty price, true). It has one of the best Extra action charms in print. If you can't see how these three things are really, really scary together, well...

The form is great indeed and the soak-charm you mention is awesome but you have to look at all the style charms not just two. I simply think it is the weaker of the dragon paths and that’s why I said the hungry ghost style MIGHT be a match for it (trough probably it won’t be).

 

[Sorrow]

So you say hungry ghost is weak and suggest ebon shadow instead? the style with the least combat applications? I think your logic is pretty flawed there.
And for the record. Water dragon is prolly the single most powerful immaculate MA around.

Weak and strong do not only refer to combat. An ebon shadow master would be equal to a hungry ghost master in combat and surpass him in stealth/assasination abilities. Ebon shadow has some very effective charms for combat.  


For the record water dragon is the weakest dragon path around. Any earth/air or fire user would own the water path user. Wood is simply too good when used in a party-support way.

 

[Persell]

So you say hungry ghost is weak and suggest ebon shadow instead? the style with the least combat applications? I think your logic is pretty flawed there.
And for the record. Water dragon is prolly the single most powerful immaculate MA around.

Weak and strong do not only refer to combat. An ebon shadow master would be equal to a hungry ghost master in combat and surpass him in stealth/assasination abilities. Ebon shadow has some very effective charms for combat.  


For the record water dragon is the weakest dragon path around. Any earth/air or fire user would own the water path user. Wood is simply too good when used in a party-support way.

Whatever you smoke, pass some over.

 

[Sorrow]

Sorry, I don’t smoke.


Strange though, there was a thread in white wolf forums on which kind of immaculate is the strongest one. The vast majority of people who had a grasp of exalted mechanics supported earth and air styles with wood style being the best for helping out a group of immaculates. Why do you believe that Water path is that great when compared to earth, air and fire?


Unless; you are evaluating each path with regard to its usefulness to a celestial in which case the air and fire styles loose a lot of their usefulness(many cool reflexive charms in these styles). Perhaps then earth and water are the best with air and fire being the worst. In any case the best styles for immaculates are air, fire and earth. My mistake for not saying I was thinking in dragonblooded terms when comparing the dragon path martial art styles.

 

[Persell]

Sorry, I don’t smoke.
Strange though, there was a thread in white wolf forums on which kind of immaculate is the strongest one. The vast majority of people who had a grasp of exalted mechanics supported earth and air styles with wood style being the best for helping out a group of immaculates. Why do you believe that Water path is that great when compared to earth, air and fire?


Unless; you are evaluating each path with regard to its usefulness to a celestial in which case the air and fire styles loose a lot of their usefulness(many cool reflexive charms in these styles). Perhaps then earth and water are the best with air and fire being the worst. In any case the best styles for immaculates are air, fire and earth. My mistake for not saying I was thinking in dragonblooded terms when comparing the dragon path martial art styles.

We are talking about an abyssal all the time. see the first post of the thread.

 

[Sorrow]

My mistake for not saying I was thinking in dragonblooded terms when comparing the dragon path martial art styles.

We are talking about an abyssal all the time. see the first post of the thread.

That's why I said my mistake.


Still my initial point remains: Hungry Ghost is weak, choose another style if you want more power: Air style, Ebon shadow, Water Dragon, Celestial Monkey whatever...

 

[Persell]

Hungry Ghost is NOT a weak style, it's a strategy style. the SECOND charm halves your enemy's  defense. It has two charms that can negate your defensive charms as you activate them, and the last charm lets you attack from suprise for 4 motes. Opponet used an offensive charm w/o a combo? use it for an almost perfect attack. It's a smart MA.

 

[Sorrow]

the SECOND charm halves your enemy's  defense..

Great charm, too bad it requires not to use any weapons…this combined with not using any armor with the style’s form makes it even weaker.

It has two charms that can negate your defensive charms as you activate them, and the last charm lets you attack from suprise for 4 motes. Opponet used an offensive charm w/o a combo? use it for an almost perfect attack. It's a smart MA.

They negate the opponents defensive charms??? Not really charm smothering technique requires you to have used essence discerning glance (6motes) and allows your opponent to spend as many motes as you did to negate the charm, thing is you lost your charm use, he didn’t.  What’s the second charm that negates defenses? You mean Lunging Phanotm method?


The surprise attack charm is a rare diamond in the gutter put it can’t make a weak style strong all by it self.


Ghost hungry strike is weak in comparison to other martial arts, it has some good charms but it requires you not to use any armor and in one occasion not to use a weapon.

 

[Upaatk]

Do you consider it so weak you would house rule it to being a Terrestrial level martial art?

 

[wordman]

Not really charm smothering technique requires you to have used essence discerning glance (6motes) and allows your opponent to spend as many motes as you did to negate the charm, thing is you lost your charm use, he didn’t.

Yes, but you just forced him to burn most of his essence pool at the cost of burning your own. If you have friends and he doesn't, he's fucked. Also, you have ways of getting motes back and he might not. (This is how the First and Forsaken Lion was defeated in two turns.)


It's interesting to compare Charm Smothering Technique with the sidereal martial arts Charm Redirection Technique. On the surface they look quite different, but in practice, the net effect of each is often identical, at least against reflexive charms. Both basically end up in an "essence race" that either burns through most of the pools of the attacker and defender, cancels the charm, or both. In some ways, Charm Smothering Technique is more powerful (longer range, doesn't require a ready parry), though of course it doesn't have the "redirect" abilty (which I've never seen actually used, people usually annul) and has a race condition even against non-reflexives (whereas Charm Redirection just stomps them). Even so, there are cases where such a race condition could be considered an asset instead of a flaw.


Like jeriausx say, it's a strategy style. Part of the stategy in using it is that how useful it is to you can largely depend on what other charms you know. For example, the lunar soak-monkey with built-in talons has assets which counteract both weaknesses you mention in the style in ways that still allow the use of every charm in the style. Just as you cannot measure single Martial Arts charms in isolation, you also can't view single martial arts styles in isolation.

 

[Sorrow]

Do you consider it so weak you would house rule it to being a Terrestrial level martial art?

Umm I don't know, haven't thought about it. The style is certainly stronger than the five dragon style in the dragon blooded book so no i wouldn't put it on the terrestial level.

 

[Upaatk]

Well, half the premise of this thread is that Celestial MA come in different levels of power, so obviously Terrestrial do too.  Independent of 5-Dragons, how does the power level of Hungry Ghost compare to all other Celestial styles?   Is it the weakest?  For that matter, do you consider the 5-Ds to be the strongest Terrestrial style to make the comparison by?

 

[Sorrow]

Yes, but you just forced him to burn most of his essence pool at the cost of burning your own. If you have friends and he doesn't, he's fucked. Also, you have ways of getting motes back and he might not. (This is how the First and Forsaken Lion was defeated in two turns.).

The thing is that the target of this charm chooses wether to spend the motes or let his charm be nullified so if you are using ghost style and decide to spend your whole essence pool he might let his charm be countered and you end with no motes while he keeps his.


How in the name of  was The Lion defeated in two turns? Is there any thread were this is explained?

Like jeriausx say, it's a strategy style. Part of the stategy in using it is that how useful it is to you can largely depend on what other charms you know. For example, the lunar soak-monkey with built-in talons has assets which counteract both weaknesses you mention in the style in ways that still allow the use of every charm in the style. Just as you cannot measure single Martial Arts charms in isolation, you also can't view single martial arts styles in isolation.

I have a hard time imagining anything other than a lunar soak monkey with talons using this style without problem(though spending 15 xp for each charm is a problem).


Using no weapon is a drawback, it remains a drawback even if you spend xp to cover it, because you DID pay xp to cover it. And is even a bigger drawback if you have to spend time and motes creating viable weapons for the battle ahead.


The same is with armor if you need to acitvate soak charms every time you enter battle this is also a big drawback.


A martial art style with around 10 charms should be able to work without much help from other charms. Sure some charms can and should be used to complement it, but it should not be dependent upon them.

 

[Sorrow]

Well, half the premise of this thread is that Celestial MA come in different levels of power, so obviously Terrestrial do too.  Independent of 5-Dragons, how does the power level of Hungry Ghost compare to all other Celestial styles?   Is it the weakest?  For that matter, do you consider the 5-Ds to be the strongest Terrestrial style to make the comparison by?

As i said before it is weaker than most celestial martial arts.


Five dragons is a typical terrestial martial art. I don't know if it is stronger or weaker than other terrestial martial arts I haven't compared it to others of its kind.

 

[Upaatk]

As i said before it is weaker than most celestial martial arts.

Right, I'm just curious about what power levels people put things at, so I'm wondering what Celestial MA you think is weaker.

 

[wordman]

Well, half the premise of this thread is that Celestial MA come in different levels of power

I don't really buy into this premise. Any time you want to know which of a group of things is "better", you have to make a choice about "better at what?". So asking "which of the celestial styles is best at X?" is an answerable question. Asking "which of the celstial styles is best?" isn't.


Arguing about celstial styles is like arguing about real-world martial arts. Is karate better than kung-fu? Is aikido better than either? Flame fest that leads nowhere insues.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Oh, I think it's quite obvious that Sorrow is judging the MAs based on their abilities to 'bash 'em in da 'ead.'  

 

[wordman]

The thing is that the target of this charm chooses wether to spend the motes or let his charm be nullified so if you are using ghost style and decide to spend your whole essence pool he might let his charm be countered and you end with no motes while he keeps his.

Yup. Did I mention Hungry Ghost is a strategic style?

How in the name of  was The Lion defeated in two turns? Is there any thread were this is explained?

Here.

I have a hard time imagining anything other than a lunar soak monkey with talons using this style without problem.

A sidereal with a couple early PAoC charms, alchemicals, even some types of fair folk, all of whom would gain more out of the essence regeneration than your average solar would. Solars can get around the soak problem of Hungry Ghost (and nearly every other celestial style) pretty easily; they have more of a problem with the weapon restriction.

A martial art style with around 10 charms should be able to work without much help from other charms. Sure some charms can and should be used to complement it, but it should not be dependent upon them.

Seems to me that all the celestial styles suffer some glaring flaw that needs filled by charms from other trees or other styles. Granted, some of these holes are more easily plugged than others (and some more easily plugged by certain kinds of exalts than others).

 

[wordman]

Oh' date=' I think it's quite obvious that Sorrow is judging the MAs based on their abilities to 'bash 'em in da 'ead.'   [/quote']
Ah. If he's looking at damage output, then he is completely correct in saying that Hungry Ghost sucks for that purpose. That isn't what it's for.