XP to rival exalt?

[Lotus1]

how many xp does a heroic mortal need abouts, to equal a exalted terrestrial on close to equal footing?


And i was thinking about the Charm "Ride" in the players guide, its a spirit charm... wouldnt it be sick to play a character who is sharing his body with a spirit like that? XP's like a mortal gets alot of bonus spirit powers.

 

[memesis]

how many xp does a heroic mortal need abouts, to equal a exalted terrestrial on close to equal footing?
And i was thinking about the Charm "Ride" in the players guide, its a spirit charm... wouldnt it be sick to play a character who is sharing his body with a spirit like that? XP's like a mortal gets alot of bonus spirit powers.

A Terrestrial of what power level?  Starting?


In what field(s)?  Combat?  Social interaction?  Exploration and adventure?  Scholarship?  Leadership?

 

[Fruan]

how many xp does a heroic mortal need abouts, to equal a exalted terrestrial on close to equal footing?

Heroic mortals? It very nearly can't be done - Without charms there is just no way. So, as the only charms a mortal can learn are Martial Arts charms, you need enough XP to get the merits needed, learn almost all of Five Dragon Style and Raise your essence to 3. And even then a starting Terrestrial with a combat focus will whoop your ass.


The twinky combination of an artifact that allows mortals to attune to a hearthstone and a Gem of Perfect Mobility might let said mortal stand up to people who can buy defences reflexively, by allowing them to go full dodge and get some attacks every turn. But leaving aside the fact that a mortal would never be able to get their hands on such a thing, this set up still doesn't allow the mortal to grow in ability beyond maybe being able to stand toe to toe with a starting DB.


Now, if you're talking about other spheres than combat, forget it. Exalts have charms. Mortals do not.

 

[Fruan]

Oh, and some further thought: Notice how I just casually mentioned that they'd need Essence 3? Well, that's because I'm too used to playing exalts.


For a mortal to get Essence 3 requires a lifetime of study and meditation. So, while it is theoretically possible to have a mortal defending themselves with 3 dice of parry on every attack and a full dodge, while still having an action to attack, it's just so, so implausible that I laugh at myself for even thinking it. Behold:


Ha! Ha!

 

[Jukashi]

Just the barest amount of spiritual heritage can give a mortal a huge boost. Though that's actually something I've wondered about... higher-Inheritance god-blooded start out stronger, but they all have the same potential. That's odd.


Anyway, sorry, that was a tangent. Lotus specified a human ochilike, not just an ordinary mortal. And if the spirit's weak enough to form a real bond with the Ride charm, they get a few spirit charms, and that'd possibly give them power over a young Exalt's. There selection would be limited, but a lot of those charms are very versatile, like Principle of Motion.

 

[Lotus1]

well, i was talking about your average un twinked  balanced terrestrial, what xp would be neccesary for the human to have a near good chance of beating him? And, for the spirit ride charm, when a spirit fuses with a mortal do they get the spirits stats? the mortals stats? or does it balance out, ( i cus i am thinking heroic mortal with like a really young lesser elemental dragon who wants to enjoy living life as a mortal and seeing the world  through their eyes cus he is inquisitive of mortality and what it must feel like to have flesh or some schmuck like that)

 

[Jakk Bey]

There was a thread a while back, about a Thaumaturge who got a nifty boost, a lot of alchemical help, and some nifty goodies that could accumulate a LOT of power, with the help of a few Charms.  


But that would require a very old Heroic Mortal/God Blood, and you have to remember that God Bloods cap out at Essence 3.  


There aren't really powerful Heroic Mortals.  Or at least, so very few that they might as well not exist.  


Here's an idea though: why not have the Heroic Mortal outsmart the Dragon Blood?


There's a cap on power for Heroic Mortals.  But, a clever Mortal can set the stage to keep even a Dynast off kilter.  Best villain my group ever encountered, and this is a fairly powerful group of Solars, is a Heroic Mortal.  He's rooked us good on several occasions, stolen goodies left and right, and very nearly gotten us killed in his schemes a couple of times, and he does it not by being especially powerful, but by being smart--and hiring help.  By springing traps.  By being a good villain.  Not powerful.

 

[Fruan]

well, i was talking about your average un twinked  balanced terrestrial

So was I.


Seriously, charms make such a huge difference it isn't funny.

 

[Fruan]

Actually, ok. Something else has occured to me.


This topic is of especial importance to me as I am currently playing in an all mortals game; I've spent a *long* time doing combat simulations to try to make a handful of characters that won't die the first time plan A (Talk) and plan B (Run away) fail.


So, back to the thing that I forgot to include in my musings - Clinches. If you can clinch someone but good then you don't need to worry about being able to defend yourself reflexively. All you need is a better brawl or MA + dex pool than your opponent, and preferably more willpower than them, and you should be able to slowly crush them to death. All you have to do is crush them faster than their anima banner is damaging you.


This is complicated slightly by the DB brawl tree having some seriously good clinch charms, but I think it's fair to ignore this for the purpose of this discussion.


So, with this tactic in mind (and I feel like a fool for not remembering it before because I am *actually* *playing* a character built on this theory) a heroic mortal who leans heavily towards brawl has a chance of taking out a well balanced DB who does not in one on one combat.

 

[Persell]

Actually, ok. Something else has occured to me.
This topic is of especial importance to me as I am currently playing in an all mortals game; I've spent a *long* time doing combat simulations to try to make a handful of characters that won't die the first time plan A (Talk) and plan B (Run away) fail.


So, back to the thing that I forgot to include in my musings - Clinches. If you can clinch someone but good then you don't need to worry about being able to defend yourself reflexively. All you need is a better brawl or MA + dex pool than your opponent, and preferably more willpower than them, and you should be able to slowly crush them to death. All you have to do is crush them faster than their anima banner is damaging you.


This is complicated slightly by the DB brawl tree having some seriously good clinch charms, but I think it's fair to ignore this for the purpose of this discussion.


So, with this tactic in mind (and I feel like a fool for not remembering it before because I am *actually* *playing* a character built on this theory) a heroic mortal who leans heavily towards brawl has a chance of taking out a well balanced DB who does not in one on one combat.

I'd honestly go with jakk on this one, outsmarting is the only real choice and probably the most enjoyable one anyway. An angry guild merchant throwing stones into the way of a brotherhood is just so much more fun than just another enemy to beat to a bloody pulp.


And about the brawling thing... as soon as the dragon blooded wears armour all he has to do is flare his anima to win this and this does not take into account that all dynasts have either brawl or martial arts if i remember correctly.

 

[Fruan]

Oh yeah, Jakk's suggestion is so good I didn't even think I was worthy of publicly agreeing with it. Smarts beats any of the shit I'm mentioning any day.


However, as for the anima banner detail - Unless the DB is fire aspected, if the mortal is wearing armour too they'll probably be able to do more damage than they're taking.


The real problems come when you look at the stunt rules; Storytellers are urged to make it harder for mortals to stunt. So if the DB can 2 die stunt every clinch contest, that's 2 extra dice, *and* a temporary willpower regained to spend on next turns clinch contest.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

It is possible, though unlikely, that a mortal could become an alchemically created monster.  The fifth level of alchemy allows mortals to permenantly buy non-supernatural merits if they have twice the BP cost in XP to spend on hand.  Mutations are considered to be Physical Merits, no matter their effects.  Combine that with the life prolonging ability of successful vision quests, and you can get a very old mortal who has spent a lot of XP to acquire these Merits.


The formula works like this.  The mortal makes or gets someone to make them a fifth level formula that gives them the Mutation of Poison Mastery.  Poisen Mastery allows them to create any alchemical formula: posions, drugs, etc.  They then use Posion Mastery to create other fifth level formulas that grant other Mutations.  As stated in Exalted: Fair Folk, unless specifically noted, any charm that a Fair Folk can take as a mutation, a mortal can as well, except that they ignore all prerequisites.  Imagine a mortal with Essence Channeler and Root of the Perfected Lotus as Merits.  Then combine level after level of the Sword Mutations that grant the extra attribute dots, extra specialties, increased running speed, the ability to ignore extra action penalties, etc.  A sufficiently advanced and lucky mortal could survive for millenia and acquire thousands of XP of Merits through this trick, becoming more capable than any Exalt who is not at least a millenia old.

 

[Lotus1]

damn Obsidian, you gave me the kinda answer i was lookin for haha, i already have inspiration... young Thaum's master is murdered by a rival for his library... his master was a great theurge. Young boy goes through masters closet, gets choice info and potion/elixers. Takes them down and gets power enough to smite the foes. Its a classic sorta clich'e tale but for me, its sorta original since i got outta my way to make unique characters.

 

[Flagg]

Young boy goes through masters closet, gets choice info and potion/elixers. Takes them down and gets power enough to smite the foes.

Did you just catch a re-run of Dragonslayer, or something?


-S

 

[Lotus1]

no

 

[Lotus1]

no

 

[Obsidian Soul]

A mortal, using the method I outlined earlier, could exceed an Exalt in every degree, except magic power.  Imagine a millenia old thaumaturge, with 60 in each attribute.  Imagine one with the capability of supersonic flight.  Using a method like mine, you can create any sort of superhuman you can imagine.

 

[Solfi]

... that is so frickin' silly I'm not gonna bother to invent a fanwank (thanks for that term btw, I like it ) to shut it down ...

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Imagine a millenia old thaumaturge' date=' with 60 in each attribute.  Imagine one with the capability of supersonic flight.[/quote']
Obsidian, comrade, don't take this as a statement on your character, but that's a spectacularly dumb idea.  Not only is it improbable to a fantastic degree, but even if the rules allowed it I don't think you could find an ST who'd let you involve such a preposterous character in his/ her story.  I wouldn't.


Besides, the first time he runs into a sorceror with AN OUNCE of countermagic, he's fucked.  "Oh, look, that wack-ass millenia-old mortal thaumaturge I keep hearing about.  Pretty buff.  Here, have some Emerald Countermagic, so none of the enchantments that keep you alive or give you power will function any more.  Bye."

 

[Silence In Daylight]

While the super-mortal idea is a bit...um, stretched, not all thaumaturgy falls by the wayside when confronted with countermagic.


 Alchemy, for instance. If a permanent effect occurs as the item is consumed, I don't see countermagic reversing said effects. A transient effect, certainly, but something like a healed wound or shed years?

 

[Solfi]

Hey, that raises a question for me. What happens if you use countermagic against magic not of Sorcery? In particular I'm thinking of permanent effects imbued by Hearthstones and such....

 

[Silence In Daylight]

No effect, as far as I can tell. Countermagic only breaks Necromancy, Sorcery, and the like--artifacts, charms, hearthstones, and so on aren't affected.

 

[Flagg]

Thaumaturgical enchantments can be countered.


-S

 

[Samiel]

In fact, it specifies that charms (that is: talismans or enchanted items) even in the vicinity of countermagic are liable to be nulled. Sucks to be an enchanter.


However, I would agree that effects such as those of age-staving cordial would remain after it was imbibed one way or another. Once you drank the thing, the magic became part of your essence, and Emreald Countermagic cannot affect that. However, you could really scare an old nobleman by threatening to countermagic his cache of said cordial: I'd say that if it were lying on a shelf in a glass vial, countermagic would render it useless and sludgey.


I'd say same goes for things like wards and weather alterations, to a degree. If you were stuck in a powerful (and for exalts, it has to be super-powerful) ward against solars, if the strength remaining was even one or two it would prevent you from using magic.


Speaking of wards, I was looking at the rules for them; a mortal with enough time to prepare could make such a powerful warding circle he could concievably bind even the strongest gods. After that, he has to find a means of summoning them, of course. But has anyone here read "Sandman"? Where some old geezer captures one of the 8 primal forces of the universe, Morpheus, in a glass sphere in his basement?


Now that would be a great story Arc.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Which still brings us back to the point, that Heroic Mortals, even super-duper Thaumaturges of Doom! can still be screwed over by the Gods' Favorites.


Dace, apparentely, was a hit...


Oh, come on, they're doing a film version of God's Favorite.  Don't tell me that you've never read Neil Simon*...


*Seriously.  Don't.  I'll be forced to find a field hockey stick then, and that won't be pretty.  The girl I wrest it from, maybe, there are a lot of good schools around here, and Smith and Mount Holyoke both field good teams, but the process won't be nice.  It will involve schmoozing and flattery and then a lot of running from the Amazonian proportioned gals, and let's face it, I run like a duck.  Don't do it. No one needs to see that.