Where did High and Low Realm come from?

[Flagg]

It seems that Old Realm was the original language of Creation, being spoken by the Primoridals and Gods themselves, and remained the official language of the Realm in the millenia prior to the Usurpation.


Somewhere a long the line, it fell out of useage by most humans, and was replaced by the High and Low tongues of the current Realm. Where did these languages come from, when did they develop, and what linguistic relationship (if any) do they have to Old Realm?


Also, are High and Low Realm related tongues, or are they fundamentally different in syntax, vocabulary, and written form?


Finally, the four "Elemental" tongues seem to suggest that there should be an "Earthspeak" or somesuch. Is that what Low Realm truly is, perhaps?


Are there any canonical answers (or hints) to these questions?


-S

 

[psychoph]

Stillborn that avatar kicks butt it is funny.

 

[Flagg]

Stillborn that avatar kicks butt it is funny.

I know


-S

 

[Persell]

It seems that Old Realm was the original language of Creation, being spoken by the Primoridals and Gods themselves, and remained the official language of the Realm in the millenia prior to the Usurpation.
Somewhere a long the line, it fell out of useage by most humans, and was replaced by the High and Low tongues of the current Realm. Where did these languages come from, when did they develop, and what linguistic relationship (if any) do they have to Old Realm?


Also, are High and Low Realm related tongues, or are they fundamentally different in syntax, vocabulary, and written form?


Finally, the four "Elemental" tongues seem to suggest that there should be an "Earthspeak" or somesuch. Is that what Low Realm truly is, perhaps?


Are there any canonical answers (or hints) to these questions?


-S

well high and low realm seem very similar certainly in their written form


(the players guide has the high and low realm alphabet and the low realm characters are simplified versions of the High realm ones)


i'd assume that they are spoken differently though possibly somewhat similar to the way cantonese and mandarin are different languages yet share a common written version


my theory on Old realm to High/Low realm is that High /low realm is what old realm has become with the influences of Skytongue/ flametongue etc addecd to it


in a similar way as Anglo saxon mixed with Norman French is what created the English language as we know it. It's a very different language to the original tongues but there's enough of a pattern to prove it's linguistical heritage.

 

[Joseph]

It seems that Old Realm was the original language of Creation, being spoken by the Primoridals and Gods themselves, and remained the official language of the Realm in the millenia prior to the Usurpation.

Official, probably, but not necessarily only.  Thousands of years is a long time for languages to evolve, particularly amongst the mortals, or even Terrestrials.  


It's entirely possible that only the individuals that had to talk to the Gods regularly (meaning the Celestial Exalts) were actually pushed to learn Old Realm in any precise way.  While the Terrestrials and mortals would have originally used the same language, over thousands of years its possible the tongue became more and more bastardized, and eventually even split based on certain class distinctions into High and Low.  The Celestials (and obviously certain interested Terrestrials) would still make an effort to learn the original form, since the Gods still spoke it, but the rest of Creation who spoke that language probably just kept drifting, resulting in quite a change over time.


So I think it was less that Old Realm "fell out of use" and more that human mortality resulted in a lot of small, gradual changes in day to day use building up into what actually became two additional separate languages.

 

[Persell]

In China there are two languages: Cantonese and Mandarin. Cantonese was the language of the intellects and the bureaucrats. The most sophisticated and wealthy of people spoke Cantonese (which is much more difficult of a language, too). Mandarin was spoken among the peasants and the merchant class and is much easier to learn.


I think that High Realm and Low Realm are parodies of these two languages. High Realm would have been the language of the Primordials and the Gods, passed down to human kind. Over time, only those who directly served the Gods and who maintained the Realm kept High Realm. While those who were away in the Threshold, and those with less intelligence butchered High Realm until it became the hick-shadow-version that we now see as Low Realm.


It's the difference between the King's English, and Southern American slang, or Newfie. Perhaps not as amusing, though.


So, in short, Low Realm is what happens when uneducated people in Creation are left to speak High Realm without interference.

 

[Joseph]

High Realm would have been the language of the Primordials and the Gods' date=' passed down to human kind. Over time, only those who directly served the Gods and who maintained the Realm kept High Realm. While those who were away in the Threshold, and those with less intelligence butchered High Realm until it became the hick-shadow-version that we now see as Low Realm.[/quote']
Given the language of the Gods and Primordials was Old Realm, it's pretty clear that this idea isn't correct.  High Realm and Low Realm are human languages, not the divine language.

 

[Haku1]

In China there are two languages: Cantonese and Mandarin. Cantonese was the language of the intellects and the bureaucrats. The most sophisticated and wealthy of people spoke Cantonese (which is much more difficult of a language, too). Mandarin was spoken among the peasants and the merchant class and is much easier to learn.
I think that High Realm and Low Realm are parodies of these two languages. High Realm would have been the language of the Primordials and the Gods, passed down to human kind. Over time, only those who directly served the Gods and who maintained the Realm kept High Realm. While those who were away in the Threshold, and those with less intelligence butchered High Realm until it became the hick-shadow-version that we now see as Low Realm.


It's the difference between the King's English, and Southern American slang, or Newfie. Perhaps not as amusing, though.


So, in short, Low Realm is what happens when uneducated people in Creation are left to speak High Realm without interference.

About the mandarin / cantonese deal. That is utter crap. I should know, I'm chinese. Granted, I'm not from China. It should be noted that cantonese, fujian are just dialects, and are languages spoken in different areas, same with mandarin. That's it.


I think a better case might be made that High Realm and Low Realm are like proper english and the various mutations of engrish you find out there.

 

[Persell]

About the mandarin / cantonese deal. That is utter crap. I should know, I'm chinese. Granted, I'm not from China. It should be noted that cantonese, fujian are just dialects, and are languages spoken in different areas, same with mandarin. That's it.
I think a better case might be made that High Realm and Low Realm are like proper english and the various mutations of engrish you find out there.

I actually learned that about mandarin/cantonese in History (University course). Mao Zedong spoke Mandarin and instituted it as the national language/dialect. Cantonese was spoken in places like Shanghai and Peeking prior to the Communist take-over. It was what the Nationalists spoke.

 

[Haku1]

About the mandarin / cantonese deal. That is utter crap. I should know, I'm chinese. Granted, I'm not from China. It should be noted that cantonese, fujian are just dialects, and are languages spoken in different areas, same with mandarin. That's it.
I think a better case might be made that High Realm and Low Realm are like proper english and the various mutations of engrish you find out there.

I actually learned that about mandarin/cantonese in History (University course). Mao Zedong spoke Mandarin and instituted it as the national language/dialect. Cantonese was spoken in places like Shanghai and Peeking prior to the Communist take-over. It was what the Nationalists spoke.

*nods* this sounds closer to what my parents told me about the various dialects, in that it was regional, rather then "intellectual" or some such. It just happens that cantonese was what was used in the eastern cities/regions.


And it should be noted that cantonese is not more difficult to master then mandarin or fujian, they're just different dialects. The fact is they use the same text, irregardless, so it's matter of learning to speak differently almost like learning a second language, but with a number of common grounds/roots.

 

[Persell]

A lot of exchange students that I've talked to from China say that Cantonese is much more difficult, in their opinion at least. I can understand that considering that it has nine tones, whereas Mandarin only has four.

 

[psychoph]

I think a better case might be made that High Realm and Low Realm are like proper english and the various mutations of engrish you find out there.

I thought that was more what River speak, Fire speak, and the other langauges were though.  I don't remembr where i got that impression but I have it that the different languages are different dialects based off of low realm.


I got the impression that high realm and low realm might be similar to Kanji (high realm)  and hiragana (low realm) in the japanese language.  That still might not be an excellent exampel though.

 

[StarHawk]

The impression I've always had was that Old Realm is the first language, being that it's the language of the gods. (Maybe like Propper English, like) High Realm would be the outcome of a thousand some-odd years of mortals and exalts alike just getting lazy with the ancient tongue and bringing in their own slang and regurgitated words from other languages. (American Engish) Low Realm would be even more degration and laziness, being a language for the lower class and the "un-educated." (let's say... cajun english?) All the other languages Flame, River, Forest, ect. Would be more along the lines of completely different languages (french, spanish, russian, ect.)


At least that's how I always thought of it.

 

[memesis]

High, Low and Old


Old Realm is the language spoken by spirits, gods, and other such beings.  As such, it probably lacks simple terms for things that frail mortals take for granted - like taking a piss.  I doubt that the gods would take very well to a lot of expansion to it, and in my world this is where High Realm originally came from.


Languages are often good or bad at expressing some concepts, either by design, lack of precognition, or simply focus.  Look at German's "Geschwindigkeitsbeschränkung" vs. English's "speed limit", or the way you refer to yourself in English ("I") and Japanese ("watashi", "boku", "ore", etc.).  Sooner or later, a man speaking a language meant for gods and struggling to define a new concept is going to say "this has got to stop" and branch out.


High Realm is spoken by the Terrestrial Exalted - people whose lifespans are close to four or five times that of regular mortals.  With a culture rooted in tradition, linguistic drift in High Realm is going to be almost nil.


High Realm will sound stilted and formal, but it will also have a lot more elegant symmetry and richness of expression, because it was used by decadent god-kings who could dedicate decades to refining language like a work of art.


Low Realm is spoken by the commoners and average mortals of the Realm - regular joes.  There's going to be a lot of changes to the language, comparable to what we see on Earth, and there will be a lot of exceptions and flaws, because it's more organic.

 

[Joseph]

Re: High, Low and Old

Old Realm is the language spoken by spirits, gods, and other such beings.  As such, it probably lacks simple terms for things that frail mortals take for granted - like taking a piss.  I doubt that the gods would take very well to a lot of expansion to it, and in my world this is where High Realm originally came from.

I'd say the exact opposite.  Why?  Because the act of urination (for instance) almost assuredly has at least one divinity overseeing it in both the Bureau of Humanity and the Bureau of Nature.  In fact, each divinity is probably part of a larger commitee on human/animal waste production.  


Remember, the Celestial Bureaucracy oversees just about EVERYTHING that happens in Creation -- this includes less than pleasant things.  There are minor bureaucratic deities for almost anything.  Heck, wasn't Ahlat the divinity who oversaw male walrus breeding contests or something?  Human urination is a MUCH larger arena than walrus mating contests.  


Given they surely have such divisions in the Celestial Bureaucracy, it'd be pretty silly if Old Realm wasn't up to the challenge of discussing their daily business.  It surely has a term for "taking a piss."  In fact, I suspect Old Realm is probably the single MOST comprehensive of all languages, probably containing vocabulary to refer to almost anything that does or could exist, simply for completeness.  Nothing less could serve as the primary language of the Celestial Bureaucracy, which literally has to deal with every single detail in Creation.

Languages are often good or bad at expressing some concepts, either by design, lack of precognition, or simply focus.  Look at German's "Geschwindigkeitsbeschränkung" vs. English's "speed limit", or the way you refer to yourself in English ("I") and Japanese ("watashi", "boku", "ore", etc.).  Sooner or later, a man speaking a language meant for gods and struggling to define a new concept is going to say "this has got to stop" and branch out.

I think a language meant for Gods would be MORE expansive than any human language, not less.  A better point would be "Sooner or later mortals are going to advance, and find reasons to use terminology the Gods haven't TAUGHT them in Old Realm yet, and instead of asking just make up their own terms."  That's a more likely explanation for divergance than what you posit, because I seriously doubt there is any concept in existence Old Realm can't communicate.  Lacking such concepts would force the Celestial Bureaucracy to lower itself to using human made languages to discuss business, and that's silly.

 

[Andrew02]

If I had to compare the Realm languages to a real world one, I would do it with English. Old Realm be Old English, High be Middle English, and Low be modern. That seems like a pretty decent way to make them actual language families the Linguistics ability uses.

 

[memesis]

Joseph actually misses my point pretty widely.


Let's say that I want to express "I need to piss, and it's somewhat urgent".


Let's say further that the stated assumptions earlier are both correct - that Old Realm is widely inclusive of concept, and that High and Low Realm were devised to simplify communication by human beings.


In High Realm, the English transliteration comes out to something like "I must urinate".


In Low Realm, the English would be "I need to go to the bathroom".


The vulgar argot would be "I gotta piss" - you'd find this in the tongues of the Threshold.


Old Realm's version would be "I needs must engage the facilities of excretion in a human being, principally that of the liquid variety, at the soonest possible moment".


How convenient is that?  Which will YOU use in your conversation?

 

[Andrew02]

In High Realm, the English transliteration comes out to something like "I must urinate".

Given what I know of the Dynasty, I think this'd be more like:


"I must offer my most humble apologies and excuse myself for a moment for the inner Dragon of Water demands honourable supplication."

 

[memesis]

Another way to put it is that Old Realm's depiction of common human activity would probably read more like an anthropologist's report.  Most people don't talk like that, and have a lot of trouble thinking like that.  To many linguists, how you speak and how you think are connected - take Orwell's Newspeak as an example of this school of thought.


You tend to talk the way you tend to think, unless you're trying to do otherwise.

 

[Persell]

So wait a minute, can anyone answer me a question: Would a character hailing from the Blessed Isle need a dot in linguistics in order to speak both High and Low Realm? Are they different enough to require it?

 

[Flagg]

Would a character hailing from the Blessed Isle need a dot in linguistics in order to speak both High and Low Realm? Are they different enough to require it?

Yes. The various character templates given in the books bear this out.


-S

 

[Persell]

Thanks, although it is quite irritating that a Dragon-Blood has to take a linguistics dot to interact with the plebs and vice-versa. Not that it's very often that a peasant would exchange pleasantries with a Prince of the Earth I suppose, but still...

 

[Flagg]

Thanks, that does make it quite irritating that a Dragon-Blood has to take a linguistics dot to interact with the plebs and vice-versa.

That's what servants are for.


-S

 

[Joseph]

Thanks, although it is quite irritating that a Dragon-Blood has to take a linguistics dot to interact with the plebs and vice-versa. Not that it's very often that a peasant would exchange pleasantries with a Prince of the Earth I suppose, but still...

They get a metric ton of Ability points for a reason.

 

[Sevatuan]

High/Low Realm


What I gathered from the Player's Guide is that High Realm is an extremely codified Language of Government. I believe the appendix to the PG references 350,000 words officially recognized in High Realm, and it is the language all Laws of the Realm are written in, and all business of the realm takes place in. There are probably few synonymous words to facilitate the preciseness required by Government and the Legal Machine and each of the recognized words has a very precise legal definition. There are no metaphorical phrases and probably very few idiomatic expressions. High Realm quite probably has a very low natural drift rate because it is actually overseen by a Ministry of the Thousand Scales - and we all know what it's like trying to insititue a policy change in one of those ministries!   It is not, from how I interpreted the material in the PG, a 'poetic' or 'lyrical' language.


Low Realm is a superset of High Realm. It include all the words recognized by High Realm, though some in uncommon usage. But it also includes synonyms and words of vague meaning. It includes the capacity for creative writing in a way that is just not possible with High Realm. Metaphors. Similies. Phrases that don't mean what they mean. Stuff like that. It is the language of day-to-day life.


So I interpret it all this way:


The Dragon-Blooded probably have all their formal conversations at work in High-Realm. They most likely chat around the water-cooler in Low-Realm, and speak Low-Realm at dinner with their families. Heck, they probably speak Low-Realm when invited to dinner with a neighboring house if it is a 'social visit,' with High-Realm being reserved for negotiating the Marriage of your Exalted Son to my Exalted Daughter and the ability for my family to legally infringe upon your families coveted business as a part of the Dowry arrangement for your son.


Of course, Your Mileage May Vary.