What the future holds

[cyl]

So, let's say you're going to write a futuristic Creation, considering its current status :


- 150 young and non united solars.


- 100 deathknights and the forces of Oblivion.


- the 300 lunars, their people and elders


- the 100 sidereals, their elders and the armies of Heaven


- the hordes of demons led by the 50 Green Sun Princes


- the remnants of the Scarlet Empire and the thousands of Dragon Blooded.


- the Fair Folk


- the locust invasion and the alchemicals.


I might have forgotten one major front or two here.


How would you achieve to write a "past" from which a more peaceful future would rise with the following elements:


- no more Great Curse


- a large return to the ways of Gaia (following the example of Halta)


- most shadowlands have been severed from Creation.


I'm thinking the only way of saving Creation is an alliance between celestial elders leading supernatural armies, and using the solar strength.


Apparently none of the above mentionned threats have sufficed to create such a coalition until now, even the Great Contagion hasn't united the celestial elders and the world has limped on some sort of doomed-from-the-beginning statu quo ever since, so what sort of event could create such a union ?

 

[Mr. S]

The elders were united back in the day when solars ran things, weren't they?

 

[strawberryleaves]

Halta may not be the best model of a future Creation--unless you want the Fair Folk in on the ground floor. [tee-hee]


But really, what's to say that an alliance of Celestials would end up favoring a more pastoral setting? An attempt to restore the First Age without its excesses...now, that I can imagine.

 

[cyl]

No way, the lunars elder holds the First Age civilization responsible for the current state of Creation. Men were lazy and corrupted, relied only on the exalt for their survival, without taking responsability for their own lives.


Part of the reason why they built some social experiments, to avoid past mistakes, none of them would choose to go back to where things were, and I suspect if any alliance was to be made, they would ensure their social models to be applied to some extent to the post modern order.


The celestials were once united, but it was more than 1500 ago, and for some who lived back there or who are now wise enough to remember, they still remember the violence, the madness, and the betrayal.


Actually it's pretty much every man for himself.


Only the Cult of the Illuminated has a shot at a long term but moderate unity, but that's clearly not enough to save the big picture.

 

[Sherwood]

My feeling is that the Lunars and Sidereals are gong to be more of a influence in the affairs of the Solars than they were before. The Solars are weak and divided, while the Sids have their high Essence MA Charms, and the Lunars are (somewhat) organized in the Silver Pact. The new Solars are, IMO, going to have to rely upon the advice and abilities of the other Exalts, at least, until they develop their Essence and the Charms to be able to stand on their own. Then, they have the effect of "Well, this is how things have been done, so this is how it should be done." keeping them from making drastic changes to the established order set up under the direction of the watchful Sids and Lunars. It will take some time before they realize that they have out-grown thier teachers, like a little brother discovering that he's now bigger than his older sister.

 

[cyl]

Well the way I see it, solars are the only remedy to most threats, thing is they are divided, hunted and have many natural ennemies. They can't do much on their own.


The way I see it, only a big apocalypse like the return of the Empress could shake the elders from their siestas into forging a new alliance, but of course neither the siddies nor the lunars would consent to such an alliance without ensuring their best interests for the future.

 

[Kyeudo]

As far as I can tell from what I've read, the Sidereals are fighting to keep things the way they were before the Empress disapeared, the Lunars are mostly doing small scale stuff on the edge of Creation when not getting dragged into the world by their bond to the Solars (and now Abyssals and Green Sun Princes), and the Dragon-blooded are currently too divided to do anything on a major scale, so none of these are likely to provoke any great change to the world.


The Yozis are still crippled in their ability to act in creation by the terms of their surrender. With no Celestial Exalted servants in Creation, they just don't have enough umph to get any major numbers of free major demons into play. The Green Sun Princes may change this, but I don't know much about them. The Fair Folk, while they are a constant threat, haven't been given any major openings by any group, so I doubt there will be another major invasion like the one that ended the Shogunate. I'm unsure of the Locust Invasion's scope.


So that leaves any major changes being wrought by the remaining movers and shakers in Creation: the Solars and the Abyssals.


Deathknights, by virtue of their Exaltations being Deathlord controlled, are usually organized and well trained. They have enormous backing. Once the armies of the Underworld start marching, it will be like a black tide and sweep anything short of the full Legions of the Realm away before them.


Solars, while disorganized initially, have a tendency to group up in the most unlikely of circumstances and are generally capable of stupid awesome levels of improvisation and resourcefulness. Due to the times, they have a large chance to build a power base before getting hit by major organized resistance and once a Solar has a power base it takes a lot to shake him.


Now, if you want a world where there is no more Great Curse on Solars and most of the shadowlands have been closed, then you need a very specific route of events.


The only ones who can terminate the Great Curse is a Primordial. Currently, the only ones actively revoking it is the Neverborn, and only on Abyssals. To get rid of the Great Curse on Solars, every single Solar would have to fall to an Abyssal and be redeemed. Even then, the Solars may or may not have to deal with Resonance.


To have most of the Shadowlands closed off would mean that when Oblivion finally marches on Creation, it fails.


Combined, it probably means a very desperate war with the Deathlords almost winning, perhaps with Creation only saved because of rogue Abyssals who can no longer resist the call of the tiny spark of Solar glory left to them. It would result in a Creation finally united again.

 

[cyl]

Well the underworld forces are not united, and even in the face of total anihilation (the Great Contagion+the fair folk invasion) there was no unity then.


Lunars died fighting the Fair Folk while the siddies got drunk in heaven out of despair and completely lost under the size of what they missed until the Empress saved the day.


Maybe the solar could show the example and forge the alliance.


- For the Great Curse: I think an epic quest, lots of sacrifices and appeasing the Neverborn (putting them back to sleep) could lift the curse. But then the exalt would need a revelation, from Lytek or Nara O.


I'll write some legend by this week end as it is told in the "future" and its explanation to see if the setting is probable or not.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

How would you achieve to write a "past" from which a more peaceful future would rise with the following elements:


- no more Great Curse


- a large return to the ways of Gaia (following the example of Halta)


- most shadowlands have been severed from Creation.


Bad elements.


Each stage of revolution created a world inherently darker than what came before, as is typical of White Wolf's settings. Damn writers wouldn't know the concepts of hope or optimism if it bit them on the ass.


Anyway, we must therefor look at what came before and how it can be improved. The farthest back we can go is the First Age, and thus we have our basis.


The restoration of the Deliberative of Celestial Exalted.


Reaching this goal is not difficult.


The three biggest threats to Creation are the Silver Prince, the Locusts, and the Realm. The Yozis are bound by too many oaths to show threat unless some Exalt does something boneheaded. The Fae are too disorganized. The other Deathlords lack the Prince's military power. Remember: armies fight wars, navies win them. They can be mopped up at leisure.


The first step is the formation of Solar Circles. By the nature of Exaltation, this is basically inevitable. Support from Seneschels and Gold Faction cements a high probability of victory over discrete threats such as individual Deathlords, the Wyld Hunt, Bronze Faction assassins, and Locust groups regardless of material resources. Lesson #1: everything can be killed.


The Locust crusade in its entirety is easily handled by any number of agencies, mortal or otherwise. Seriously, why anyone treats those losers as a serious threat is beyond me.


The Realm is much harder. With no Empress, the fall of the Empire is inevitable. The hard part is putting the pieces back together. Claiming the Sword of Creation is vital in this endeavor; a party trick for Celestials.


At this point anything capable of mounting a serious force against Creation is handled. So let's look to internal affairs.


In all likelihood, the stolen Exaltations are beyond redemption without interference from a Primordeal. Gaea never gets involved in shit and Autoboy is untrustworthy. Lytek might be able to pull something off, but at best we're looking at a second Jade Prison while he works it out. This is a very good thing.


150 Solars cannot match with 300 Lunars. This new Deliberative will by necessity be egalatarian as the various Celestials are now on equal terms -- Lunars have the numbers, Sidereals have the resources, Solars have the individual might.


Now, what keeps this Silver Age from falling like its Golden counterpart? Direct Lunar involvement. The Solars face megalomania, the Sidereals face hubris, the Lunars face...their own selves. The Wyld did more to the Lunars than the Curse ever did. These individualists are a moderating influence on the dominating Solar ambitions, and Sidereal hubris is countered by cold history. The Great Curse is effectively moot.


After that everything falls into place. Lunar values check the proliferation of Essence technology that relies on Solar influence. Sidereal involvement in Creation lets Yu-Shaun recover from their mess of the bureaucracy. Solar expansion into the Wyld recreates employment for spirits of all kinds. The world returns to order.

 

[cyl]

How would you achieve to write a "past" from which a more peaceful future would rise with the following elements:
- no more Great Curse


- a large return to the ways of Gaia (following the example of Halta)


- most shadowlands have been severed from Creation.

Easy,


- I find a heroic tale describing how the heroes of the past got rid of the Curse (still got to think of a good idea to trigger this and make this come true)


- the children of the sun had sinned, so their number had been divided, it was the time for the children of Luna to take a more active part in the destiny of the world (as you stated, 150 solars and 100 siddies cannot match 300 lunars !)


- the chosen of the sun united with their brothers fought back to claim the lands of the living over the dead, and cleansed Creation of the taint of the past sins of mankind.


There can be no hope for Creation as long as the Curse remains.

 

[Haku1]

And the 100 Deathknights and their restless dead forces?


And the 50 OMG! Green Sun Princes and their demonic hordes?

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

There can be no hope for Creation as long as the Curse remains.

I strongly disagree. The Curse is only disastrous when Solars or Sidereals lead Creation and Yu-Shaun. Its impact on Lunars and Terrestrials are minimal. The ideal Deliberative would make equal the votes of not only Exalts but spirits and mortals, especially unenlightened mortals. Just as the Primordials ignored humanity's power when fashioning the race, so to did the Neverborn when fashioning the Curse.


There is no hope for Utopia while the Curse remains. Nor is there hope for Utopia when any measure of free will remains. The Curse is meaningless.

 

[Arthur]

I was beginning to write a very similar scenario to the one you suggested. Its purpose was to make possible a game with high-Essenced Celestial Exalts outside of the First Age. I'll probably start in it by January (likely to be named the Shard Wars). This scenario does have the advantage of being mostly Great-Curse-free. It's intended to have a Star Wars-ish feel as well. I completely ignored Alchemicals and pretended that no Yozi ever got their hands on a Solar Shard. Here is a vague outline:


In this scenario, ever since the reappearance of the Solar Exalted, a group of them tried to re-stablish the Deliberative. They reunited newly-reincarnated Celestials, and tried to convert Lunars to their cause. They succeeded reasonably well, managing to form a group of over 50 Celestials that wanted to make things like they were in the First Age. Meanwhile, The Bull of the North assembled a huge army and independently attacked some city in the north of the Blessed Isle. He conquered it, which made the Dynasts pretty much crazy, and opened an opportunity for Mnemon to seize the throne. She did, and marched against Bull. Meanwhile, the Deliberative heard the news, and, assisted by some artefact, launched a major attack to the imperial city, which had been left largely defenceless.


A huge war occurred, and several of the major players in Creation's games of power took part. Ma-ha-suchi went crazy(ier) and went full force against the Realm. The Sidereals entered some kind of political war, with the Goldies gaining more and more adepts. In the end, Mnemon managed to destroy the Bull's armies, but at the cost of the Imperial City and several other territories in the east. After a few years of Creation-wide conflict, most of the Imperial DBs would fight in a battle against some Silver Pact Lunars, where Mnemon, Ma-Ha-Suchi and several others would die. The conflict was so intense, in fact, and the Sidereals were so engaged in their own strife, that the Loom would suffer greatly, and go unstable. Chejop Kejak then made a final sacrifice and somehow restored the stability of the Loom at the cost of his own life.


After the dust started to settle, somewhere around RY 790, Creation would be starting to unify again. Some DBs, mainly the houses that opposed Mnemon, accepted (or rather -- were social-fu'd to accept) the new Deliberative. The Gold Faction won over the Bronze one after Kejak's death, but both still existed. Many Solars and Lunars then met their peers in the Isle, and a project to rebuild Meru begun. For some reason, the Imperial Manse couldn't be opened. An disordered resistance of DBs and Lunars still fought the new realm, but they were the minority. All seamed to be well, and the First Age's glories were once again appearing in Creation, but everyone ignored a main enemy that remained silent all the time: the Underworld.


By 795, three Deathlords somehow managed to stay together enough to join forces and march against Creation. Using plagues similar to the Great Contagion and other, new forms of magic to fight, they crushed the wounded and weakened armies that survived the fights in the Threshold. No-one was ready for that, and they quickly created a huge Shadowland in the Northwest that seemed ever-growing. Many Solars were caught and converted to the Oblivion. The Deliberative managed to keep them from entering the isle, but in 830, they had made almost 1/3 of Creation into a Shadowland.


Once again, the Celestial Exalted united, forced by an external menace to make peace (somewhat like in the Ozymandias Plot). At some point, a Twilight Solar devised an artefact that has the opposite effect to a Monstrance of Celestial Portion, so some Abyssals were converted back to the Celestial side. As the years passed, the balance of power between Underworld and Creation became somewhat unstable, with both sides suffering regular losses and victories. Almost all Solar Essences had been Abyssals at some time in their existences, so they had been freed from the Great Curse. About half the threshold was under Deathlord domain, and only the east was mostly free from it, with only a few scattered Shadowlands. The South also had many free lands, but only because the Fair Folk were fighting for them.


The "present time" is the year of 157 after the Reconquest, which is around RY 950. The Blessed Isle was now flourishing with the wonders of the First Age, but most of the rest of Creation wasn't. The DBs had been reduced to only a few hundreds, and even now there were less than 3000. There is rebellion among the Exalted of Creation, but it's mainly insignificant. Even the Sidereals left their politic problems to focus on the combat of the Deathlords.

 

[cyl]

So in your game siddies and Lunars are still caught by their curses, only the few solars who were deathknights are now curse-free.


This is one of the possible scenarii I had in mind, but I was planning to move further away in the setting, like RY 1300 or something like that.


But the idea of Curse-free solars is a good start to get rid of the Great Curse

 

[Arthur]

I figure that once they are free from it, it'd be possible to create a lasting empire, and once it gets powerful enough, they could work on freeing the other Celestials.

 

[Persell]

Its impact on Lunars and Terrestrials are minimal.

I would disagree that the impact on the Curse is minimal on Lunars. It still impacts them, and quite strongly, they just internalize the effects as an expression of Luna and their individual connection to their animalistic sides. Or at least thats how I think the MoEP: Lunars puts it. Regardless of the rationalization, and Lunar in Limit Break can still be scary and destructive, even if not quite on the scale of a Solar.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

One problem with your order is a simple thing forgotten. There are many Dragonblooded outside the Scarlet Dynasty, or service to the Realm proper. Where was Lookshy in all this? What of other Outcastes? The former, in particular is neither allied with the Realm, nor likely to sit out of a world war...and would certainly have some effect upon it. Of course, you could just say that they have stuck to doing what they usually do, and are the reason the East and River Province are more stable than other areas of Creation, but it seems unlikely that they, or various Outcastes, would be so caught up in a Realm war that they would be slaughtered enmasse.

 

[cyl]

To me the main problem of the Great Curse is that it alienates exalts, dividing them ("you've seen what that guy did, I told you he couldn't be trusted"), and preventing them to join forces.


In just a few millenias, when the solar ruled the world, they made a mess of the world, awakening the Neverborn, creating monstruosities and doing crazy things, they would surely have destroyed the world in a great conflict if no one had stopped them.


So as long as it exists, Creation cannot be safe in the long run.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

To me the main problem of the Great Curse is that it alienates exalts, dividing them ("you've seen what that guy did, I told you he couldn't be trusted"), and preventing them to join forces.
In just a few millenias, when the solar ruled the world, they made a mess of the world, awakening the Neverborn, creating monstruosities and doing crazy things, they would surely have destroyed the world in a great conflict if no one had stopped them.


So as long as it exists, Creation cannot be safe in the long run.

And this is a bad thing, as a Storytelling device? It means there is always reason for the characters to have something to do.

 

[cyl]

well there's still a primordial at bay, even with the Neverborn asleep the Deathorlds are still formidable foes, so are the Fair Folk and the demons... there are tons of things to do even without being cursed.


Plus exalts are human beings, they still have passion, anger etc etc... they can go crazy/angry without a curse.

 

[Arthur]

What I posted is merely an outline. Lacking time, I didn't develop this idea very much yet. The idea, however, is that EVERYONE goes to war. I suppose that Lookshy, for example, could have sent armies into the Blessed Isle (to fight either the Realm or the Celestials, I don't know) and suffered an attack from a Deathlord.


The outcaste DBs would probably form the majority of the surviving DBs.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

In just a few millenias, when the solar ruled the world, they made a mess of the world, awakening the Neverborn, creating monstruosities and doing crazy things, they would surely have destroyed the world in a great conflict if no one had stopped them.

The situation was allowed to deteriorate because there were no controls on the Solars themselves. An egalitarian Deliberative creates those controls. Also, remember that for all their destruction, great and powerful things can come from shadowlands and the ilk.


To the statement on the Lunar's Great Curse, the greatest concern is not the effect on the individual but on government. The Solars are unfit to rule because of their megalomania. The Sidereals likewise, from their hubris. The drives imposed on Lunars and Terrestrials are far less destructive as elements of a governing body.

 

[cyl]

But it makes them untrusworthy... You would not accept a counterpower who would go crazy every two months would you ?


An egalitarian deliberative is a dream, as soon as the solar will be given some measure of power and will remember their past lives, then they will have la folie des grandeurs, and will take control of the Deliberative.


Even with 150 solars, they still have 150 lunars bonded... so that gives 300 votes who can go in the same direction provided there is a solar conspiracy to take over the reins, and trust me, they will be that power hungry with the Curse, against 100 siddies and the remaining 150 lunars... majority wins, the solar rule the world and screw up once more.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Assuming there is some form of Solar hegemony that all intends to work together. Frankly, that seems somewhat less than certain, except possibly if his Shiny Four Armed Whinyness gets off his duff and orders something of the sort. If anything, many of the Solars are more likely to see eachother as rivals with or without the Great Curse. They are still very powerful beings with access to phenomenal cosmic power. Add in the arrogance that on its own, not supernatural curses required, and expecting them all to work together for a common goal inherently is foolish. Further, their nature pushes each one of them to drive towards their own ideals or leadership, which isn't necessarilly something that works in accordance with the goals of other Solars. Assuming that then not only will the Solars all work together, but further, each will manage to get their Lunar bond to back not just them, but the Solars as a whole seems rather far fetched. Watch C-SPAN or your own equivalent channels, then consider that with the magical power of the Exalted brought to bear, even if it isn't directly used on the Deliberative floor. You're going to have a collection of enormous egos, each looking to their own interests, and those of who THEY care about, and whomever can buy their votes. You'll have coalitions and cliches and hatreds and more. Assuming that simple Exaltation of one type or another will inherently make certain people allies ignores the freedom of choice that the Exalted have, as well as the hubris that beings of such power are likely to pick up on their own, without a hint of Great Curse, much less with any Great Curse among members. This assuming of course that you are even aware of the Curse.


On another note...frankly, if a few hundred years is enough time for every single Solar to have fallen and been an Abyssal at least once...frankly, the Solars shouldn't be too proud of themselves. Not exactly a vote of confidence in their abilities.

 

[Arthur]

By the note made in the beginning of the Lord of Creation book, you can interpret the thing in more than one way. Seeing the Solars (and all the Celestial Exalted, in fact) as people, who behave and think like people, is the first way. The second consists of assuming that their Exaltations and, eventually, old age, make them somewhat different in character to a normal human. This is traditionally represented by their virtues, which are far greater than those of a mortal. In that scenario, I assume that the second one is the most appropriate, and that they are not egocentric politicians with a taste for power. It would work more or less like the elves and the humans in LotR. The former, by nature, have some wisdom to them, while the latter, as humans in our world do, suffer from the flaws of their characters.


All in all, I assume that the Exaltation modifies partially the personality of the Solars, making them better in spirit too. That is reflected by greater virtues, which the Great Curse is not there to corrupt. A similar assumption is described in the DotFA books.


As to the second point you made, well, not all Solars would have fallen to the Deathlords, probably. But nearly every Solar who died after the war will have died fighting the forces of the Underworld, and a great many of them will have been thrown in a Monstrance after that. In that scenario, the Deathlords are eager to collect more shards, especially after that Twilight creates an artefact that reverses the process. They hunted newly exalted ones as well, almost like the Lunars search for the casteless to convert them to the Pact. That being, I think it would be very reasonable if some 80-90 Solar shards had passed through the Neverborn hands at some point, which leaves less than 70 Solars to be un-cursed. And those are more likely to die, anyway.