Void/Solar circles and Eclipse/Moonshadow castes

[kaukau]

Perhaps this question has already been asked a bunch of times, but I found no answer to it browsing this forum or the WW one.


Can Eclipse caste Solars learn and use Void Circle necromancy as an "out of type charm", for twice the usual cost?


And simmetrically, can Moonshadow caste abyssals do the same for Solar circle sorcery?


Thanks!

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

Well...it's a charm, right? So... seeing as they can copy any charm for double cost ... then there's no reason not. And, technically, since the charm itself has no essence cost, only the Spells...which are NOT charms... and only essence costs are doubled... Yeah, it can get pretty nice...though you do still have to pay the double xp... Now some STs will house rule that the spells will cost double, which would basically make it all but useless from sheer essence expenditure, but...that's a house rule, not canon.

 

[Andrew02]

They might be able to learn the charm, but that simply doesn't change the rule that only Solars can use Adamant Circle Sorcery and only Abyssals can use Void Circle Necromancy.


But here's what Nephilpal (I think that's Michael Goodwin . . . I can never remember real names) had to say about Solar use of Void:


"Nephilpal - 02/16/2004 11:28:26


If anything existed to let Solars do Void, they assuredly would have. I think you really have to connect with the Malfeans personally to get that, so an Artifact is extremely unlikely.


Not impossible, mind you, because that's a dirty word in Exalted... just really unlikely.


--Neph"


Personally, I think that's a great big no, only, because Exalted has this "nothing is impossible!" thing, this is as strong as he could put it. At the very least, the method you describe is one of those things Solars would assuredly have to use Void, but it's not mentioned in the books anywhere I know of as a way for Solars/Abyssals to get to use the final tier of Necromancy/Sorcerery respectively.

 

[Joseph]

The answer is no.

 

[MOK]

There you have it, end of discussion, I guess!

 

[kaukau]

They might be able to learn the charm, but that simply doesn't change the rule that only Solars can use Adamant Circle Sorcery and only Abyssals can use Void Circle Necromancy.

That's why Eclipses would have to learn the Void circle as an "out of type" power, at double cost etc., just like, say, raksha powers.

But here's what Nephilpal (I think that's Michael Goodwin . . . I can never remember real names) had to say about Solar use of Void:


"Nephilpal - 02/16/2004 11:28:26


If anything existed to let Solars do Void, they assuredly would have. I think you really have to connect with the Malfeans personally to get that, so an Artifact is extremely unlikely.


Not impossible, mind you, because that's a dirty word in Exalted... just really unlikely.


--Neph"


Personally, I think that's a great big no, only, because Exalted has this "nothing is impossible!" thing, this is as strong as he could put it. At the very least, the method you describe is one of those things Solars would assuredly have to use Void, but it's not mentioned in the books anywhere I know of as a way for Solars/Abyssals to get to use the final tier of Necromancy/Sorcerery respectively.

All "out of type" powers, like spirit charms, that an Eclipse can learn need to be taught by someone who knows them. In the first age to which Nephilpal seems to refer to, this meant the Malfeans and nobody else just as he says. So I am not still 100% sure - but thanks for the pointer.

 

[Andrew02]

I fail to grasp how he seems to be referring to the First Age. The First Age is not mentioned in that quote.

 

[riven5]

In no uncertain terms, there is no Solar Exalt who can use Void Circle Necromancy, unless s/he is using an artifact or something bizarre as Neph was quoted at mentioning.


And I quote from the Book of Bone and Ebony, pg 117.  I'm positive it is said elsewhere as well, but this is the first quote I found.


"...and only the Abyssal Exalted and the Deathlords can achieve mastery over the Void Circle."


Another helpful quote would be The Autochthonians, pg. 285.


"He [The First and Forsaken Lion] also has a comprehensive knowledge of Solar Circle Sorcery spells learned before his death and corruption that he can no longer access."


So although an Abyssal or DL could KNOW of the sorceries of the Adamant Circle, s/he can most certainly not use them.

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

They might be able to learn the charm, but that simply doesn't change the rule that only Solars can use Adamant Circle Sorcery and only Abyssals can use Void Circle Necromancy.
But here's what Nephilpal (I think that's Michael Goodwin . . . I can never remember real names) had to say about Solar use of Void:


"Nephilpal - 02/16/2004 11:28:26


If anything existed to let Solars do Void, they assuredly would have. I think you really have to connect with the Malfeans personally to get that, so an Artifact is extremely unlikely.


Not impossible, mind you, because that's a dirty word in Exalted... just really unlikely.


--Neph"


Personally, I think that's a great big no, only, because Exalted has this "nothing is impossible!" thing, this is as strong as he could put it. At the very least, the method you describe is one of those things Solars would assuredly have to use Void, but it's not mentioned in the books anywhere I know of as a way for Solars/Abyssals to get to use the final tier of Necromancy/Sorcerery respectively.

Save that there would at that time have been no one to steal it FROM...no one existed to have it naturally, so...

 

[Persell]

Save that there would at that time have been no one to steal it FROM...no one existed to have it naturally, so...

On a mechanics/flavour basis, I'd say that the highest levels of sorcery/necromancy involve the exalt/deathlord in question tapping in to the deepest levels of their divine/tainted spark, which really would mean that the highest levels of the 'opposing' sorcery are out of reach. Whilst 'nothing is impossible' has been quoted, I think it would ruin the flavour of a game if you have exalts that can do both, I do remember reading that solars of the first age played around with necromancy, but I really do feel that Void circle should be reserved for the exclusive use of the 'bad guys', otherwise they lose one of their few advantages over solars.

 

[Andrew02]

Save that there would at that time have been no one to steal it FROM...no one existed to have it naturally, so...

I've lent out my Abyssal handbook, so please, do refresh my memory as to where Abyssals acquired Necromancy from? Was it the Deathlords? If so, where then did the Deathlords acquire it from? Was it something they spontaneously were able to discover? Does the Abyssal book actually say Void didn't exist until the Abyssals came along or something?


Just eyeballing Neph's quote there, and seeing that whole 'connection to the Malfeans' thing . . . I'm fairly certain the Malfeans came into existence around the beginning of the First Age, probably before during the war as the first Primordials died. Unless . . . "at that time" there were no Malfeans, and they only came into existence when the Deathlords and Abyssals popped up.


And why in the fuck do you say "at that time"? If anything exited PERIOD to let Solars learn Void, they'd have learned fucking Void. If not during the First Age when miracles transpired HOURLY, if not more frequently, then why not in the Age of Sorrows? If something existed AT ALL, it'd be there, and Solars would have Void. Then you could happily play out a fucking Cult of the Illuminated Solar with Adamant Circle Sorcery, Void Circle Necromancy, and Sidereal level Martial Arts.

I do remember reading that solars of the first age played around with necromancy, but I really do feel that Void circle should be reserved for the exclusive use of the 'bad guys', otherwise they lose one of their few advantages over solars.

Solars discovered Necromancy in the First Age. It is, remarkably, the only thing I can think of Solars discovered on their own (charms, artifice, sorcery and so on came from gods/Autochton).


I think Void should stay for the Abyssals. Not because I think Necromancy is evil and should be a bad guy thing, but because it props up that Solar/Abyssal contrast. Having Void seems like a very poor advantage, and not a very significant one to lose, since it would simply be assinine to let Eclipses get Void without allowing Moonshadow to get Adamant, so the loss would be balanced out.


Quite frankly, it seems retarded to me to let the fucking diplomats ascend to levels of sorcerous and necromantic mastery beyond the Castes that are actually supposed to be the magic masters could ever do.

 

[Persell]

I think Void should stay for the Abyssals. Not because I think Necromancy is evil and should be a bad guy thing, but because it props up that Solar/Abyssal contrast. Having Void seems like a very poor advantage, and not a very significant one to lose, since it would simply be assinine to let Eclipses get Void without allowing Moonshadow to get Adamant, so the loss would be balanced out.

True enough, if there's one thing I dislike when playing it's others players seeing the bad guys uber-weapon and wanting to learn it themselves. As you say, the upper levels should be exalted type specific, if only so that not all the types of exalt can play with all the other exalts favourite toys.

Quite frankly, it seems retarded to me to let the fucking diplomats ascend


to levels of sorcerous and necromantic mastery beyond the Castes that are actually supposed to be the magic masters could ever do.

I seem to recall that the flavour/explanatory text for the Eclipse/Moonshadow caste advantage for learning out of type charms etc revolves around their being 'talented generalists'. Void/Adamant levels seem rather too specialised to fit in that category, and indeed it does seem ridiculous that Twilight/Daybreaks wouldn't have the upper hand regarding spell charms in this instance.

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

And not all Exalt types CAN copy other people's things. That's the special ability of the Eclipse and Moonshadow castes alone. Artificially limiting that power because you don't want 'everyone' to be able to use eachothers abilities is simple foolishness. They aren't everyone, but a small subset of Solar/Abyssal Exalted. As for my comment earlier, in the First Age, Necromancy of the Void Circle did not exist. Who can use it naturally? Abyssals and Deathlords. Seeing as such beings did not exist at that time... rather difficult to steal their tricks. And obviously the Malfeans did not choose to grant their slayers the power of such. So, at that time, there WAS no Void Circle Necromancy, thus, no one was learning it. The Void Circle was first discovered/created for the use of the Deathlords by their Malfean masters. Consider that it is one of the special abilities of the Deathlords in specific, and none had used it before them. As for the Malfeans, they did exist after the Primordial war, obviously, hmmm, what happens when you slay a Primordial...I wonder... but they had no Deathlord or Abyssal servants. Seeing as it is such servants ties to them that allows them to use such, without any such servant, no Void Necromancy. However, it is the special Caste power of the Eclipse to learn the charms and abilities of others, including such strange beings as the Raksha, Autocthonian Alchemicals, Demons, Gods, Ghosts, and all the other Exalt types. Normally, amazingly enough, these being cannot learn eachothers powers...but wait, the Eclipse have the ability to learn such...at a pretty hefty xp cost, and have a rather difficult time with the more expensive of such. Unless it is explicitlly stated, the Eclipse CAN learn anyone elses charms. Now, admittedly there is a blanket statement that other Exalts cannot learn the Void Circle...much like, amazingly, they cannot learn Abyssal charms. However there is no specific addition that the Eclipse caste cannot use their Caste ability to do so...which IS found for the one thing the Eclipse CANNOT learn, Lunar Shapechanging...which is based of an inherent power of the Lunar exalted, which also cannot be learned. Lacking such basis, the Eclipse caste is incapable of expanding upon such. However, the basis for Void Circle Necromancy is Shadowlands and Labrynth Circle Necromancy, both of which the Eclipse, like all Solars, ARE capable of learning. Seeing as they are indeed specifically cpable of learning the basis for such magics, and the only statement against them being able to do so is a blanket statment on what Exalt types can learn on their own, there is no reason that they would not be able to use THEIR special power. Part of their theme is the ability to copy others  skills and learn them, the same as dark magics are part of the Abyssal theme. Limiting their ability to fulfill being the ultimate generalist is no less foolish than artifically not allowing an Abyssal to learn sorcery, because it is the magic of Creation. You will note I would also allow the Moonshadow to likewise learn the Solar sorcery that was once his birthright before his spark's corruption, at the same more expenssive cost.

 

[Flagg]

Woah... how about some paragraphs?


-S

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

Sorry about that, rather a flaw of mine... and one of the reasons I tend to try to keep my posts rather shrot and to the point.

 

[Andrew02]

Seeing as it is such servants ties to them that allows them to use such' date=' without any such servant, no Void Necromancy.[/quote']
Prove this to me. Prove to me that the capacity for Void Circle Necromancy spontaneously sprang into existence with the genesis of the Deathlords and the Abyssals.

 

[riven5]

Unless it is explicitlly stated' date=' the Eclipse CAN learn anyone elses charms. Now, admittedly there is a blanket statement that other Exalts cannot learn the Void Circle...much like, amazingly, they cannot learn Abyssal charms. [/quote']
The blanket statement is still a canonical statement.  Only Abyssals and Deathlords may use Void Circle Necromancy.  That is canon.  I'm not saying you can't golden rule it, I'm just saying that Moonshadows cannot canonically use Adamant Circle sorcery without some manner of artifice or something like that.


Let me find you some other quotes.


Book of Bone and Ebony, page. 139.


"The Circle of Obsidian was discovered only after the fall of the First Age -before the rise of the Deathlords, there were none to wield it."


The Abyssals, pg. 228


"Solar Exalted once probed the powers of the Labyrinth Circle and could do so again with the proper tutelage.  Still, none save the deathknights and their Deathlord masters can invoke the magic of the Void itself."


If you require more convincing...you shouldn't.  An Eclipse caste cannot learn Void Circle necromancy.  She could certainly learn OF it, but could not use it without some kind of elaborate artifact(s).  Similarly, Moonshadows won't be using any Adamant Circle Sorcery.

However' date=' the basis for Void Circle Necromancy is Shadowlands and Labrynth Circle Necromancy, both of which the Eclipse, like all Solars, ARE capable of learning.[/quote']
No, the basis for Void Circle Necromancy is the utter power over death they are capable of controlling thanks to the Malfeans.  Shadowlands and Labyrinth circle charms are prerequisites.  


Book of Ebony and Bone, page 139.


"The necromancy of the Third Circle represents the utmost control over the dead and the world created by the fall of the Malfeans."

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

Save that it is NOT stated ANYWHERE that the Moonshadow caste cannot learn Solar sorcery through their caste ability...only a lack of Solar Circle Sorcery on their charm list. Period. I've looked, and found absolutely no statement of such whatsoever. Lacking that there is no reason they should be incapable of using their caste ability in such a way...and no reason their counterpart should not be able to do likewise.

 

[Andrew02]

Lacking that there is no reason they should be incapable of using their caste ability in such a way...and no reason their counterpart should not be able to do likewise.

There is one: common sense. Though, that is expecting a little much coming from you, isn't it? The text riven5 has cited would be enough for anyone rational and not out to twink it up to the nines.

 

[Dracogryff]

Lacking that there is no reason they should be incapable of using their caste ability in such a way...and no reason their counterpart should not be able to do likewise.

There is one: common sense. Though, that is expecting a little much coming from you, isn't it? The text riven5 has cited would be enough for anyone rational and not out to twink it up to the nines.

Uhm, how does common sense dictate anything here? Insofar as I read EITHER way, BOTH are blanket statements that expressly contradict each other. None but Abyssals and Deathlords can learn Void Circle. Eclipses are expressly able to learn any charm of any exalt type that they have a willing tutor for. Since Void Circle is a Charm, only learnable by Abyssals (or Deathlords, which are basically ghosts+12), well, it's a charm, thus, theoretically, an Eclipse caste COULD learn it. Theoretically. This doesn't mean it should probably be allowed in most cases (I can think of one or two that I'd allow it for), but by the stated rules of Eclipse and Moonshadow Caste, I cannot find anything other than other blanket statements, that are the same as the 'exalts cannot learn charms of other types' blanket statements. So thus, it all comes down to which blanket statement you want to be the overriding factor.


I have also noticed that any charm that a Moonshadow or Eclipse can't learn because it is innate to that type specifically states this in the charm description. Show me where Void Circle says any such thing.


Now, that said, I probably wouldn't allow it myself in a game I ran (not that I do, really). There are one (well two technically) exceptions that I might make. I mean, how better to FURTHER corrupt that Eclipse Solar into turning Abyssal? Or on the flip side, perhaps another step onto the elusive path of Redemption for the Moonshadow Abyssal renegade? Fun little plot twists like that, I personally like. But that's just me. Other than that, since it needs a willing tutor anyhow, I don't think it's gonna happpen.


But, in the end, to state as consisely as possible what all that prior rambling was about:


There are two blanket statements here. They expressly contradict each other. Since White Wolf has not clarified this further (and probably will not, other than the blanket statements in Bone and Ebony that say basically the same thing as the core Abyssal book), it all comes down to the storyteller deciding which blanket statement overrules the other insofar as I can tell.

 

[riven5]

This is ridiculous.  It's been stated time and again that Solars cannot learn Void Circle Necromancy.  It's been stated time and again that Abyssals cannot learn Solar Circle Sorcery.  Saying that the caste ability specifically overrides that is simply not in standing with ANY canon.  Period.


There IS no statement saying that Moonshadows may learn Adamant Circle Sorcery.  There ARE statements saying that Abyssals (Read: ALL ABYSSALS) cannot learn Adamant Circle Sorcery.  


I am so stunned by the response it is almost baffling.  How many times does it say, canonically, that Solars (Read: ALL SOLARS) cannot learn Void circle necromancy?  I have to believe that the reason WW never dropped in a little sub column about Eclipses learning Void circle is because they felt it was a total waste of space.  Why would they possibly state AGAIN that Void circle necromancy is ENTIRELY the field of Abyssals and DLs...when they have already done so on numerous occasions?


Similarly, why in hell would the talented generalists be superior sorcerors and necromancers over the caste that is DEDICATED to such arts?  Twilight/Daybreak castes are described, time and time again, as the mages.  It was the twilights of the first age that discovered necromancy in the first place, yet they were usurped from their position of consummate magi by the diplomats?  That is yet -another- breach of common sense.


Wait, let me quote AGAIN.  Abyssals, page 198.


"In true poetic irony, the very death taint that denies Abyssal Exalted access to Solar Circle Sorcery..."


This arguement is ended.  The Abyssal Exalted, which INCLUDE Moonshadow castes, have absolutely no access to Solar Circle Sorcery.

 

[Dracogryff]

I am so stunned by the response it is almost baffling.  How many times does it say, canonically, that Solars (Read: ALL SOLARS) cannot learn Void circle necromancy?  I have to believe that the reason WW never dropped in a little sub column about Eclipses learning Void circle is because they felt it was a total waste of space.  Why would they possibly state AGAIN that Void circle necromancy is ENTIRELY the field of Abyssals and DLs...when they have already done so on numerous occasions?

It never says ALL Solars, though, that's my point. It just says Solars, general. If it says somehwere ALL Solars, I would concede the point. Do note that in the same rules that say these things, it also states that Exalted (which, by the way you read 'Solars,' would mean ALL Exalts) CANNOT learn Spirit Charms, or Arcanoi for that matter. Yet, the Eclipse (and Moonshadow) may learn them. Isn't that breaking a blanket rule? That's all I was saying. After all, White Wolf contradicts itself often enough elsewhere, why not here?


And in the end, for me, this is merely theoretical. I have no interest in Void Necromancy, OR Solar Sorcery on their own types, let alone trying to convince and ST to let me learn the other on the wrong type. All I had meant to say was that THEORECTICALLY, it could be read that way. Not that it was true. I personally wouldn't really allow it myself. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate. My apologies for simply pointing out that it COULD be abused that way.


And finally, I can give two reasons they should have made a sidebar or something: Twinks and Rule-mongers. If you don't write things down in black and white for these types, well, they WILL rape the fucking system. I have seen it happen.

 

[Andrew02]

I'm only posting to add that I agree with riven5 in the strongest terms.

 

[Persell]

Well I've already stated my opinion that Void and Adamant should be kept within type (especially given the references of Riven5 above). Dracogryff, I do see your point about contradicting blanket rules, but at the end of the day I feel that the multiple references for 'cant learn' are stronger than the one reference for 'can' in an anima power description. I think we've argued ourselves to a standstill again. Anyone want to email WW and ask them for a definitive answer?!

 

[riven5]

Dracogryff, this isn't some kind of personal attack against you.  I can tell you are making a reasonably good point, as by NOT saying utterly specifically that Eclipse cannot learn Void Circle they are opening themselves up to powergaming.  Fine.  However, find me a quote that says the Solar Exalted cannot learn Spirit charms.


You won't find one.  Because everytime such a quote is made, which is rarely, it specifically mentions Moonshadows/Eclipses as being exempt thanks to their caste ability.  It does not give such a statement when speaking of Adamant/Obsidian circle magics.  It merely says that the Abyssals and Deathlords are the sole masters of the Void Circle, without giving any specific notice of Eclipse immunity to said rule.