Unexpected Attacks

[Ncolic]

Can i use Adamant Skin Technique or Iron Skin Concentration against an unexpected attack that i fail to notice?


On page 155 of the core rule book, it just states that an Unexpected attack makes it undodgeable and unblockable, which makes both parry and dodge DV 0. Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadow Evasion states that they cant be used against unexpected attacks.


Can i increase my dodge DV with an excellency for example?


To rephrase the question, does an Unexpected Attack negates all charm use unless the charm has specific rulings against it like Reflex Sidestep Technique; or can i use any charm in response to that attack unless the charm states that it cannot be used against an Unexpected Attack (like HGD) ?

 

[Arthur]

I don't know what the rules say specifically, but once you don't notice an attack, I don't think there's any sensible reason for you to be able to activate a charm in response to it.

 

[Brickwall]

Unexpected attacks render your DVs inapplicable, so increasing them through Charms is allowed, but it won't do a thing. Even perfect defenses don't help when you can't use that DV. However, that's all unexpected attacks do. You are still allowed to enhance your soak (Adamant Skin Technique is a perfect soak) or perform a counterattack. Any reflexive Charm may be activated. It's just that most defensive reflexives won't help unless they specifically aid against unexpected attacks.

 

[Chaka]

Yeah, reflexive soak enhancers, etc. are all fine.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Can i use Adamant Skin Technique or Iron Skin Concentration against an unexpected attack that i fail to notice?
On page 155 of the core rule book, it just states that an Unexpected attack makes it undodgeable and unblockable, which makes both parry and dodge DV 0. Heavenly Guardian Defense and Seven Shadow Evasion states that they cant be used against unexpected attacks.


Can i increase my dodge DV with an excellency for example?


To rephrase the question, does an Unexpected Attack negates all charm use unless the charm has specific rulings against it like Reflex Sidestep Technique; or can i use any charm in response to that attack unless the charm states that it cannot be used against an Unexpected Attack (like HGD) ?

Yes, adamant skin, iron skin, etc are step 8 of combat resolution (5 for some), declaration of defense is step 2... So, yeah... You can use them.

 

[wordman]

Be advised that inapplicable defense is one of those areas in 2E where what the rules actually say and how most people actually play are quite different. Although it doesn't sound like it at first, this turns out to be yet another timing problem. As I mentioned when I dissected DV a few years ago:

It is clear from the rules (ex2e.146) that when a defense becomes "inapplicable", this means the DV value gets set to zero. What is not clear at all is when exactly this happens. The rules do claim that "bonuses and penalties apply to inapplicable DVs after the reduction to zero, so a character huddled behind a rock may still benefit from its cover, and so on." But it isn't exactly clear what types of bonuses and penalties are being discussed. Does this mean anything that manipulates DV directly, including charms? Or does this just mean modifiers in the chart on page 147? For example, if someone makes an unblockable attack against you, but you have a charm that adds to your PDV, can you block the attack anyway? Can you apply the bonus of a shield against an unblockable attack? Literal reading of the rule quoted above suggests that you can do both.

Most people do not play using that literal reading, even when they know it exists. As you can see on the discussion on the wiki page linked to above, however, reasonable people can reasonably disagree about it. I've played it both ways.


To address this (and a number of other ambiguities and contradictions), it helps to give defense its own "Order of Modifiers", similar but not identical to the one for dice pools (ex2e.124), that makes it clear when certain things are accounted for in determining DV. Though the designers of 2E probably had a specific thing in mind for such things, they clearly didn't bother to write it down (since the canonical Order of Modifiers has some problems when used for DV). The one I currently use labels the steps with letters, to differentiate them from the steps used for pools. Many others do the same. If you pick one of those (or come up with your own), it will have the effect of solving a lot of at-the-table slowdowns due to badly written timing rules.


Note that none of these links account for errata, which probably changes the analysis a bit (though, I'd guess, probably doesn't make the rules any more consistent).

 

[Persell]

The timing of it moot. DV is based upon a dice pool, therefore the the setting to DV to zero would occur AFTER most charms could influence it. From there only an external bonus based on the the environment or equipment would apply.

 

[wordman]

The timing of it moot. DV is based upon a dice pool, therefore the the setting to DV to zero would occur AFTER most charms could influence it. From there only an external bonus based on the the environment or equipment would apply.

By saying something "occurs after" something else, you are talking about timing, therefore making it far from moot.


If you want to decide that a) DV is a dice pool, b) this pool follows the Order of Modifiers of all other dice pools, c) charms adding to DV directly explicitly do not act like "success adding" charms (even though they are mechanically the same concept), d) charms altering DV explicitly do not act like external bonuses or penalties (even though they are mechanically the same concept), e) inapplicability is applied at some, undefined Step 5.5 of the Order of Modifiers chart and f) it's OK for internal (i.e. pool-altering) penalties to be excluded from the "bonuses and penalties apply to inapplicable DVs after the reduction to zero" rule, then your approach works quite well.


That isn't what the rules actually say to do, but since what they actually say is a contradictory mess, what you have done is actually exactly what I suggested in my previous post: defined how the timing of DV modifiers works in your campaign. (Essentially, you are using this variation.) Just be sure you know that is what you are doing, and what ancillary effects it has.

 

[Ncolic]

Hmm... ok i think i understand how it works now, thanks for the help.


But it brings up another question to the mind. If the rulings are allowing Adamant Skin Technique to be used against unexpected attack , doesn't it make alot more powerful when compared to other perfect defense charms like HGD or SSE? It already has the advantage of being used in step 7 instead of 2 and allowing mote conservation in the cases where the attack is missing.


And now that it doesn't need to be combed to a awareness or dodge charm to prevent unexpected attacks, in my opinion it makes the charm too powerful when compared against its peers.


as for excellencies i am gonna house rule it so that an unexpected attack makes you skip you step 2 unless you have a charm that specificly works against unexpected attack. That would make 1st and 2nd excellencies unable to improve DV but will keep 3rd excellency still fair game.

 

[Persell]

DV is NOT a dice pool, it is a stat derived from one. The order of modifiers for dice pools do not apply to DV. DV is calculated AFTER the dice pool is calculated. The timing of the modifiers to the dice pool doesn't matter because they are already done and over with. Bonuses they apply directly to DV state that they add to DV, like cover. It adds a static value to DV, and ignores the dice pool entirely. If normal charms could be used to despite being inapplicable, perfect defenses would not specify that they ignore being inapplicable.

 

[wordman]

Bonuses they apply directly to DV state that they add to DV, like cover. It adds a static value to DV, and ignores the dice pool entirely.

Charms that add directly to DV also state this, yet clearly you are considering these as part of the DV calculation, not a modification of its result. This is a reasonable way to do things but, as I said, whether you realize it or not, you are making a choice about the timing (or "order", if you like) of how modifiers to defense are applied in your game.


It's important to understand what else that choice affects.


As an example, when do you apply stunt, virtue and wound penalties? How do you interpret the Third Excellency as working for defense?

 

[wordman]

If the rulings are allowing Adamant Skin Technique to be used against unexpected attack, doesn't it make alot more powerful when compared to other perfect defense charms like HGD or SSE?

The (admittedly weak) counterargument is that AST requires five dots in a fairly limited Ability, an extra dot of Essence and more prerequisite charms. Also, as a soak charm, it doesn't stop the character from being hit, only from taking damage. So effects that rely on hitting, but not damage, (such as knockback, some types of touch attacks, etc.) will still occur.

 

[Quchu]

But it brings up another question to the mind. If the rulings are allowing Adamant Skin Technique to be used against unexpected attack , doesn't it make alot more powerful when compared to other perfect defense charms like HGD or SSE?

The thing with AST is that you are still hit by the attack. It doesn't let you avoid the attack, but simply ignore its raw damage, meaning if it had any side effect beside from pure damage, it'll still work on you.

 

[cyl]

But you do have charms in the resistance tree taking care of poison / crippling / wound penalties...

 

[Persell]

As far as im aware the only charm that adds directly to DV is the Third Excellency, however, because that is a function based on the ability I choose to have it function as if it was adding dice/success on a roll. What other charms add straight to DV?


As for Adamant Skin Technique, its important to note that not all attacks can BE soaked Though in general fighting situations, it IS better then its DV based counter parts.

 

[wordman]

What other charms add straight to DV?

Some quick PDF searching finds these; there are most likely others:

• Serpentine Evasion (ex2e.240)
  
• Harmonious Wind-Luring Song (exdb.134)
  
• Elemental Armor Technique (exdb.139)
  
• Defense-From-Anathema Method (exdb.146)
  
• Elemental Defense Technique (exdb.153)
  
• Wary Yellow Dog Attitude (exdb.160)
  
• Five-Dragon Blocking Technique (exdb.190)
  
• Secure Cat Stepping (exlu.150)
  
• Spreading the Wyld Roots (exlu.154)
  
• Outworld-Forsaking Stance (exlu.165)
  
• Den Mother Method (exlu.195)
  
• Harmonic Completion (exsi.148)
  
• Forward-Thinking Technique (exsi.153)
  
• Perfection of the Visionary Warrior (exsi.156)
  
• Five Shadow Feint (exab.129)
  
• Leaping Horror Approach (exab.187)
  
• Light on Dark Shield (monk.49)
  
• Sail Furling Invulnerability (monk.61)
  
• Sprinting Stag Defense (monk.67)
  
• Demure Carp Feint (monk.88)
  
• Ebon Shadow Form (monk.92)
  
• Elusive Flicker Evasion (monk.93)
  
• Iron-Arm Block (monk.97)

You can also find quite a few example of charms adding directly to MDV, such as Voice of Mastery (exdb.131), Preservation of Resolve (exsi.178), etc..


Note that the Third Excellency is actually a bit different than all of these, because it acts during Step 6 (one of its main advantages).

 

[Persell]

Hmm, it does seem i will need a better qualifier. I wouldn't allow those charms to apply, but other then what I read as the intent in the rules.


EDIT: A thought. The stated charms all affect a specific defense and need that defense to be used. Where as the only example of bonuses to DV given in relation to a defense being inapplicable (that I could find) is cover, which adds to either DV and function whether you are aware of an attack or not.


So I look at it as, if you replaced the PC with a rock, would whatever gives a bonus/penalty still work. Now i just need to find a better way to express that as a rule.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Hmm, it does seem i will need a better qualifier. I wouldn't allow those charms to apply, but other then what I read as the intent in the rules.
I look at it as, if you replaced the PC with a rock, would whatever gives a bonus/penalty still work. Now i just need to find a better way to express that as a rule.

Why would you houserule over 23 unrelated charms?

 

[Persell]

How is that a house rule? Based on how I see the rules regarding inapplicable defenses those charms do not apply.

 

[Lord Kamina]

It's a house rule if you're following your interpretation instead of the intent of the rules. It has been made clear that for the effects of bonuses, dice added to DV are added before dividing, direct bonuses after.

 

[Persell]

Actually, no, the effects are not made clear. That's kinda the hole point of the thread.


Also what you just said has nothing to do with what we were discussing, which is what affects apply to DVs when they are inapplicable.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Actually, no, the effects are not made clear. That's kinda the hole point of the thread.
Also what you just said has nothing to do with what we were discussing, which is what affects apply to DVs when they are inapplicable.

But that question is entirely moot. You should be asking: "Do dice pool modifiers apply to DV?" and the answer is YES... if they didn't, DV wouldn't be subject to wound penalties, multiple action penalties, stunt bonuses, virtue channels, etc etc etc.

 

[Persell]

Except none of the penalties or bonuses you mentioned reduce or increase DV by way of dice pool. They directly reduce the DV by a set amount or are rolled and then added, not by reducing or increasing the dice pool used to calculate the DV in the first place.

 

[Lord Kamina]

Except none of the penalties or bonuses you mentioned reduce or increase DV by way of dice pool. They directly reduce the DV by a set amount or are rolled and then added, not by reducing or increasing the dice pool used to calculate the DV in the first place.

Somewhere in that long list of etc, specialties are included.

 

[wordman]

So I look at it as, if you replaced the PC with a rock, would whatever gives a bonus/penalty still work. Now i just need to find a better way to express that as a rule.

Check out the variation I linked to before. I think it does what you want. It's a pretty good variation, and one of the more "mathematically pure". (Unfortunately, since it evens out the math for stunts, wounds and such, it's turns out to be one of the less canonical versions, though I'd guess it is how an original draft of 2E worked.)


All of the charms I mentioned above can be thought of as applying when the DV calculation is made. Some, like reflexives, do this explicitly in Step 2. Others (like scene longs) can be assumed to also work in Step 2 as well. So the central idea of the variation I mentioned -- namely, "rereading" charms that say "+1 to DV" as really meaning "+2 to defense pool" -- works for what you are trying to do. The only real exception is the Third Excellency, since it works in Step 6. You could just apply that same "rereading" to it as well, but this would tend to move it out of Step 6, which is one of its main advantages.