Underworld, Stars, Fate... and Sidereals

[cyl]

Hi...


Since I run an abyssal campaign, and discovered about the two siddies that worked with/for the Neverborn and the Deathlords (Green Lady for the Mask/Walker & Ten Thousands Virtues for the Bishop)... I've been wondering for some times now, how could old siddies could have been attracted by the underworld... and why the hell there are stars in the underworld ?!


If you follow any leads we have on the Loom of Fate in Creation, you'll know that Fate is revealed in the stars (that reveal the progress of the Loom)...


But, if you read Ab1 p.16, you'll know that in the underworld... there are stars too, and that there is a Fate for the dead...


So it would actually imply that there is a Loom of Fate in the underworld... since there is a Fate for the dead.


But, besides that, what I really don't understand is... how the siddies do not seem to know about it ?


I mean, Black Ice Shadow was created to be the one who'd explain to the others what the hell is happening back in the underworld but... at least two elders have already walked that path.


And above all... how the hell the Green Lady could told Larquen that "destiny hasn't found" him yet... since you can't read the fate of one who's still living in the underworld, and you can't clearly read the fate of a future dead solar while he's still alive and moving ???


Who the hell are those guyz (Green Lady and Ten Thousands Virtues) anyway ?!


I do seek your opinions on that matter since my abyssal pcs just went back from the Invisible Fortress and discovered the whole thing about Mask & Walker... so the Green lady is a very important character.


I might add, that I haven't got a chance to read Sid2 yet, maybe there are more info on that matter.

 

[Zaramis]

The Green Lady is detailed in the new Sidereals book.

 

[cyl]

*commits suicide*


Damn !


What are they telling us about her ?


Is Ten thousands Virtues described too ?

 

[wordman]

The Underworld is outside fate, so it is not the Loom controlling fate there. Since the stars in the underworld didn't exist prior to the arrival of the Calendar of Setesh, it's likely that the Calendar is what is tied to the fate of the dead.

 

[cyl]

The Stars, the sun and the moon of the underworld existed before the Calendar (ab1 p.37), but they did not move until the Calender was put in place by Setesh (which I now strongly suspect of being a sidereal exalted ghost, if such thing can happen)... then time and fate moved according to the Calendar.


And Setesh can predict the future with it and search the past (same page). So there is a Loom of Fate in the underworld actually, it is the Calendar...


So actually it could be a potential source of interest for sidereal exalts (a different clockwork to study).

 

[Persell]

I don't know how much has been detailed about the Calendar of Setesh, but I really like your idea about a Sidereal ghost, kinda like an alternative take on a Deathlord.

 

[Sherwood]

In the Sid book, it does mention that they are looking at ways of divining futures in the Underworld, and thereby, having even more of Creation under their benevolent control.

 

[Sherwood]

As far as the Green Lady goes, Mask Of Winters has hinted to her that she is the reason that the Abyssals were able to be created.  She is terrifed to ask him just what he means by that, fearing that she has given away too great of a secret to allow her to return to Yu-Shan without imediate reprisals.

 

[Samiel]

I don't know how much has been detailed about the Calendar of Setesh' date=' but I really like your idea about a Sidereal ghost, kinda like an alternative take on a Deathlord.[/quote']
A custom Deathlord in my game was actually the ghost of Aesha Ura's past life, the First Age leader of the Gold Faction. She had issues about finding her present incarnation and was somewhat obsessed with Solars and the employment thereof.


The party sort of snubbed her generosity and the story moved elsewhere, so her motives and potential as an NPC were never explored, sadly.

 

[Moonsilver]

A custom Deathlord in my game....so her motives and potential as an NPC were never explored, sadly.

Would You Buy A Used Deathlord From This Man?

 

[cyl]

I... actually think I can make a theory on that...


I did not buy the book yet but went to rpg.drivethrustuff.com and read the sample file which gives us the basics.


And then page 27 descended upon me and blessed me with its holy secrets !


The Jade Prison was seeked by the Gold Faction and they searched it through every corner of Creation, and beyond... to the underworld and the wyld.


In their quest to see the Solars return they searched the underworld and found solar ghosts, and interrogated them. At some point, some of them regained their memories and went angry and fled the labyrinth and maybe became Deathlords.


The point here is that there actually were siddies in the underworld, and they had contacts with ghosts... so Ten Thousand Virtues and Green Lady could be part of that underworld team.


(the fact that there is an underworld team reinforce my point of view about the Calendar of Setesh... for me it was clearly designed either by or with the help of an elder sidereal or his ghost... there is NO WAY another ghost, so powerful and wise might he be, could have done it... perhaps the Calendar was built out of compassion for the dead, to give them some sort of a cycle to have a "quiet & peaceful afterlife")


As they searched the underworld, the deathlords came out... and while they were stranger than Nephwracks and other ghosts, they did not seem a threat to Creation at that time... just some savant super powered ghost kings... nothing the siddies could have handled... so the "underworld team" made contact with them and somehow helped them along the way.


But I think they went undercover so far that the officials actually forgot about what they do, and they've started to make mistakes, and too much time in the underworld has surely twisted their minds.


But the fact you stated that the Lady fears for her return in Yu Shan means that she's still connected to the place and the bureaus, and she's still doing her job... well with some liberties here and there... but the job and the hierarchy remain deeply anchored in her, although she actually is a psychotic bitch who tried to kill solars (Jiunan at least) and who actively supports two deathlords (even if she truly works for only one, her action with Walker must have a certain degree of efficiency, or else she would be gone)...


HEY... maybe she's in fact working for the Bronze Faction in the Scavenger Lands, plotting to put Mask & Walker in front of the scene to weaken the Confederation of Rivers, and strenghten and reunite the Empire... how twisted would THAT be ?!

 

[Sherwood]

From wha t I read, she's afraid that she did or said something to give the secret of coruptng the Solar Shards into the Abyssals.  Of course, MoW could just be screwing with her head  :twisted:

 

[Persell]

Considering how she screwed with his while he was still alive, it might be justified.

 

[cyl]

Mask Of Winters has hinted to her that she is the reason that the Abyssals were able to be created.

This can only mean one thing... she is the reason why the neverborn and the yozis found out about the Jade Prison... She somehow gave away the concept AND the location of the Jade Prison.
Unless there is a predictable contradiction between E1 & E2 (based on the fact that in Ab2 the underworld team would reactivate the memories of solar ghosts to find the Jade Prison to the point that some of them became the deathlords out of anger), in Ab1 the first among the deathlords were recruited around the Jade Prison... so the Neverborn knew about the place. Knew there were solar ghosts haunting around there... so she couldn't have given up the location... it was already known.


But maybe neither the Neverborn, nor the Deathlords, nor the Yozis, could have imagined what really lied into the depths (the concept of the Jade Prison holding the essences)... and maybe the Lady gave it away accidentally and it gave Mask a terrible idea with his former knowledge of precedent akumas (Larquen must have known about akumas long before he died) combined with the knowledge of the location and the concept, and provoked a deal between Yozis and Neverborn:


"You teach us how to taint solar essences and we give you a fair cut, we know the place, we provide the vehicle and the means to collect the essences, you give us this knowledge of yours, and for 50 essences for you... we all win ! You're in ???" :twisted:


I mean... if you were still one of the good guys, and were responsible for the creation of the abyssal... you'd fear immediate reprisals from Yu-Shan too.


But I can't imagine her, or TTV, as a traditional sidereal working undercover... I reeeeeeeeaaaally have a hard time at this... what does the books say about it ? Is she affiliated to one of the Faction or is she totally rogue and deeply lost undercover ???

 

[cyl]

she's afraid that she did or said something to give the secret of coruptng the Solar Shards into the Abyssals.

Yep, I think that's it... she actually did something about that... and if it was anything, I'd bet it would be about the Jade Prison holding the solars... no dead could have known this (not even the ghosts that became the deathlords).
Which raises another question... why the hell were the solar ghosts around the Jade Prison in Ab1 if the sidereals stole the essences to Lytek AFTER they killed the solars ? I mean... the ghost doesn't follow the shard...


Hoooooooooo, I think I'm not gonna love this new coherent background coming just after I've made my own out of campaign advancing needs !!!  

 

[Persell]

But I can't imagine her, or TTV, as a traditional sidereal working undercover... I reeeeeeeeaaaally have a hard time at this... what does the books say about it ? Is she affiliated to one of the Faction or is she totally rogue and deeply lost undercover ???

The Green Lady is an Independent Secrets by book, bound to neither the Bronze nor the Gold factions.  It also states that she splits her time between the courts of the Walker in Darkness and the Mask of Winters, manipulating them both for the benefit of Heaven.  She likely sits on the Convention of Deathlords (which was once the Convention on Shadowlands which she was a part of), though she's not at all sure where her loyalties lie anymore with the "whispers of the Neverborn haunting her dreams". (S2E, p41)


Hope that helps a bit if you plan on using her at all.

 

[cyl]

I KNEW IT !!!  


Damn that feels good !


Thanks to you for your kind revelation that she's still working undercover.


My pcs are currently serving Walker in the Darkness and I didn't exactly know what to do with her (except being a traitor to Walker and all)... when my pcs are gonna find out about this, they WILL freak out !


To explain the situation to all of you (and the need I had), I had one solar campaign in which 6 unprepared solars confronted Walker out of... I don't know exactly what since their men and solar npc friend were captured and Walker was ready to negociate with them... and three solar (two pcs and the already captive npc) fell into captivity.


Later on, the captives were sent back to Provacour (the main city of the dominion of my pcs)  to their solar friend against a huuuuge ransom that destroyed most of the ressources of the starting solar dominion (named the Alliance of Renewal). All three captives were marked by walker with dark sorcery and one of them was most receptive to it since he was already very fond of himself and his great powers... Time passes and they went to conquer Rathess and awake dark gods (upgraded leech gods) beneath the surface and fight them. Before the fight Walker contacted this one solar, Borel, and told him the gods were too powerful and his friends would die, so he made a deal, gave him the power to strike the strongest god and weaken him (sort of necrotic gaia's rebuke) so it can be killed.


Borel accepted, and when the Rathess campaign was over, he went to Walker, and became the deathknight known as Terror from the Labyrinth.


Meanwhile another solar from the band, Vaza de Naval who just happened to be a cold blooded assassin working for the Alliance was contacted by Walker too, who told him something like "boy, you have a gift, this gift is death...let me help you truly reveal it before death finds you soon while my armies devour your small kingdom and soul", and Vaza became Bell of Silence


So now I got a abyssal campaign with 5 pcs with 2 ex solars, while the solar campaign is still running and the solar have NO idea about what happened to Borel & Vaza (since they totally disappear).


To make the game interesting, I took the abyssal to the invisible fortress very soon in the game, in order to shake their convictions about the Oblivion cause("what... you mean the guy that corrupted us til we sold our soul was a solar ?... and so was Mask... and they were... GAY ?! :shock: boyz, I think we've been screwed to death !") and they are just returning to the Walker's Realm with Walker himself who has followed their every move and learned the truth about himself...


Yet Walker and the pcs don't know anything about the Green Lady (since I didn't myself), and think another deathknight (known as Stormrider) is a traitor (he once worked for the Mask... and actually still does ! ).


So being sure about what the Green Lady really is (at last) and where her loyalty lies (although the whispers) IS gonna change some plots here and there in my story.


Actually she is now certainly the one who revealed the location of the Invisible Fortress to one of the abyssal the pcs went after when she was missing, in order to accelerate the fight between Mask & Walker... and you know what... it worked !


Knowing she's not sure of herself because of the whispers is great too, means I can have a truly deranged, remorseful (what a mistake she's made) and heroic npc... deeply lost undercover. That's GREAT !


So THANK YOU


And sorry for the storytelling anyway ^^

 

[Persell]

lots of really interesting storyline stuff
To make the game interesting, I took the abyssal to the invisible fortress very soon in the game, in order to shake their convictions about the Oblivion cause("what... you mean the guy that corrupted us til we sold our soul was a solar ?... and so was Mask... and they were... GAY ?! :shock: boyz, I think we've been screwed to death !") and they are just returning to the Walker's Realm with Walker himself who has followed their every move and learned the truth about himself...


more intersting and clever storyteller stuff

Damn...after all that you felt you needed to make the game interesting! I'd hate to see what you do to make a game exciting! :shock:

And sorry for the storytelling anyway ^^

Don't apologize for the story re-cap, sounds fun.

 

[cyl]

Exciting times will come when they realize the Green Lady's still working for Heaven, and playing the deathlords against each other.. when they do realize that she's responsible for the rebirth of the solars and the creation of the abyssal...


Terror from the Labyrinth was pretty shaken to see who the deathlords really were and somehow felt sad to have abandoned all he's newly rediscovered past and path in Creation (I wrote a story about him being one of the solar twins protector of Rathess, him and Filial Wisdom)... but at the times, the necessity of saving everyone and gaining more powers was attractive to him and he made his choice.


When he realizes the whole truth, and Vaza too, I wonder what they'll think and do !  


Two other deathknights from the group are somehow samurai spirited, they follow their lord above all (above the Neverborn) because they are warriors and they have a certain code and a background very close to that state of mind. So I'd think they won't care one bit.


The last one is a crazy bastard with a tortured mind (whispers 5 do tend to get on your sanity!)... and he would certainly go crazier when he finds out the truth.  :lol:


This is a 4 year now solar game and the abyssal game has started the past year when we went through the "Battle for Rathess" season.


Glad you liked it  

 

[tjcoonrod]

I just wanted to post, and didn't really have anything meaningful to add to the conversation, but just wanted to say I feel your pain.


I ran an abyssal campaign a while back, before siddies 2.0 came out - and the PCs were abyssals of the Walker in Darkness. Sadly, 1st edition sidereals had pretty much not a whole lot of anything in there on the green lady. It was aggravating.


I resolved that from the stories, she at one point was in love with mask of winters. But I still could not really justify a 'sidereal' going rogue and betraying creation. Possible, sure, anything is possible - but just not plausible enough in my mind.


So, what I did, was assume that she was undercover for heaven. Heaven is most concerned with mask of winters, so she is infiltrating walker in darkness court, to TRULY begin infiltrating mask of winters court (her primary objective) to derail his plans. But in the process, realizes that walker in darkness is just as serious a threat as mask of winters, and just hasn't made any overt moves yet, so continues to go back and forth - playing them both off of each other, while learning as much as possible about the underworld, the abyssals, and the deathlords - surely, they MUST have a weakness?!?


That is what I decided to do. Siddies 2.0 came out, and although that fell in line for the most part, it would seem in siddies 2.0 she seems a bit confused - like any undercover police officer who has been undercover far too long, I think she still is somewhat in love with the mask of winters, although she probably denies it to herself. With the whispers, and her fear of somehow contributing to the abyssal exaltations (which, I think, is just the MoW ****ing with her head).


I know there was another thread with a question concerning fate in the underworld, and a few arguments back and forth, and for that, I always just assumed that the calendar of setesh *is* a parallel to the loom of fate in Yu-Shuan, and I have always used that as such - and that the Green Lady is studying it, but has not fully mastered it yet (another reason for her long stay there). Eventually, she will use it from the underworld side, to help undermine/sabotage any plans of the deathlords.


Either way, she plays a *VERY* dangerous game, playing so many sides - not to mention, all the lies she probably has to constantly tell, and keeping tabs on all of those. She has definitely woven a very tangled web, pun unintentional.


So either way you go you're alright I think. I altered canon after siddies 2.0 for that abyssal game, in that the green lady is not confused (she is truly on the side of heaven first and foremost). But she is *fearful* a bit of going back, in between the whispers and MoW comments. It also mentions that a few sidereals learned the 'laughing wounds style' much to the possible humiliation of their peers in heaven - so I just naturally and cheerfully assumed the green lady knows that style, which is just another chip on that pile of fear she has concerning relations with her peers in heaven.


So again, I feel your pain. Your abyssal game sounds fun! And as far as Ten thousand virtues, he's even tougher to find stuff on, and I didn't recall reading anything on him in siddies 2.0 although I might go back and double check. SO I would just fill in the details however you wish or works best for your game.

 

[Arthur]

Threadmancy is a dark art, you knew that, didn't you? Some ideas just should rest in (relative) peace.