Underworld Metaphysics

[Jimborg]

Okay, when people talk about the Underworld in relation to Creation, they talk about Creation being physically above the Underworld, i.e. I remember someone saying that the roots of the elemental pole of Wood come out in the respective spot in the Underworld.


So if a (group of)mortal(s) were to dig deep enough, would they find the Underworld? Or would going to the Underworld require the use of some supernatural power?

 

[Quantum Toast]

Okay, when people talk about the Underworld in relation to Creation, they talk about Creation being physically above the Underworld, i.e. I remember someone saying that the roots of the elemental pole of Wood come out in the respective spot in the Underworld.
So if a (group of)mortal(s) were to dig deep enough, would they find the Underworld? Or would going to the Underworld require the use of some supernatural power?

I vaguely remember reading something about the earth beneath Creation extending infinitely far down - I'd guess that the Underworld is "below" Creation in a more metaphorical sense, and the elemental poles are just weird like that. Still, if you tried digging right beside the roots, it'd be interesting to see what would happen.

 

[Arrghus]

If you dig deep enough, you end up in a cave system full of old, discarded gods and magical dwarves that build things all the time. Physically, the only thing under Creation is more Creation. Also, dirt. The Underworld is a separate dimension, a sort of cross between various memories of Creation and Primordial world-body stuff.


Metaphorically, however, the Underworld can be seen as being beneath Creation. Things fall down, after all, and when people die, their souls "descend" into the Underworld. And the Underworld is basically made of metaphor. "Prayer", concentrated belief, is even one of its five elements, with the four others being similarly more metaphorical than actual building blocks. Thus, many things in the Underworld can be said to be "below" their corresponding places in Creation.


Special mention goes to Stygia, which is located in exactly the same place as the First Age Deliberative capital Meru, only a couple kilometers down, due to lack of giant mountain.


This goes even further with the Labyrinth, which is made of people's expectations and fears. I wouldn't be that surprised if the only reason that the roots of the First Tree descend into Orak-Tau is that it makes sense that they do.


Not on a physical level, because, there being no ground in the East Pole, there can be no roots in the first place (not to mention what would be necessary to create a Shadowland there, much less an opening to the Labyrinth), but on a metaphorical one, because the First Tree is a tree (no duh) and trees have roots. Since there are no roots in the Pole, there must be roots elsewhere. And where better to have roots than "below"?


In order to make sense of certain things in Exalted, you need to think of them not as part of a world, but as part of a story. This is why we talk "metaphysics" instead of "physics" (well, "motonics", I guess).


But of course, this weird relationship between metaphor and reality mean that you're kind of right. Kind of. And kind of not. This certainly gives a new meaning to the Exalted motto, though.


"Welcome to Creation. Here's your shovel."


BTW: Orak-Tau is the place where the roots of the First Tree in the Elemental Pole of Wood (also known as the East Pole) come out. It isn't technically in a corresponding location, since it's in the Labyrinth, where things don't have precise locations anymore. Then again, the East Pole's a bit out in the Wyld, so I it doesn't really have a precise location either.

 

[josiah42]

In my game I put as much in the same 3D grid as possible. Creation, the Wyld, and Yu-Shan can all exist simultaneously. Malfeas, Elsewhere and Autochthonia must exist in a separate plane. This was just a stylistic choice in my mind. The underworld in particular has a lot of charms/spell that refer to the "corresponding place" in the other world. Shadowlands serve as a sympathetic link between the two locations. I've got the Underworld flipped upside down just like America and Australia. So in my world from top down is Yu-Shan, the Daystar, Creation, Beneath (with Jadeborn), more horrible Dark Brood, The Void, The Labyrinth, Regular Underworld, The Calendar of Setesh. It's not a perfect setup. One wierdity is that the Void sits between the Pole of Earth and Stygia. But that could actually be a cool hint that the Void is the "roots" of Mount Meru. Like a Black Hole/White Hole pair since Mount Meru is always spewing out essence to flow into the rest of Creation (see DotFA:Guidebook to Meru).

 

[Jimborg]

In my game I put as much in the same 3D grid as possible. Creation, the Wyld, and Yu-Shan can all exist simultaneously. Malfeas, Elsewhere and Autochthonia must exist in a separate plane. This was just a stylistic choice in my mind. The underworld in particular has a lot of charms/spell that refer to the "corresponding place" in the other world. Shadowlands serve as a sympathetic link between the two locations. I've got the Underworld flipped upside down just like America and Australia. So in my world from top down is Yu-Shan, the Daystar, Creation, Beneath (with Jadeborn), more horrible Dark Brood, The Void, The Labyrinth, Regular Underworld, The Calendar of Setesh. It's not a perfect setup. One wierdity is that the Void sits between the Pole of Earth and Stygia. But that could actually be a cool hint that the Void is the "roots" of Mount Meru. Like a Black Hole/White Hole pair since Mount Meru is always spewing out essence to flow into the rest of Creation (see DotFA:Guidebook to Meru).

Huh, thats an interesting thought: Mount Meru shoots out Essence, the Voids sucks it up. If the number of Shadowlands increases, does the natural respiration rate fluctuate between the two worlds. Creation losses the motes per hour the other gains? What if the "Natural" respiration rate was higher before the creation of shadowlands?


I think the Sword of Creation was the canonical "root" or anchor point as it were, the Underworld came after the Primordial War. Also, the Voids has the whole "annihilate everything" going against it.

 

[wordman]

There are also a number of references (in 1E, anyway) that the Underworld can also be thought to "overlap" Creation. That is, for a given point on Creation, there is an analog point in the Underworld, sort of a "dark mirror". Ghosts, in particular, care about this kind of thing, as some of their charms let them "view" Creation in the vicinity of their Underworld analog. Same thing with tombs and grave goods: the grave goods "appear" in their corresponding position in the Underworld when first interred (often in better form than the original; wooden coins painted gold show up as real gold coins in the Underworld, etc.).


When shadowlands form, this "overlap" becomes, effectively, more real and connected.