Twinking for the sake of a well rounded character.

[lowguppy]

I know that sounds contradictory, but the more I mess around with Exalted chargen the more I realize that in order to build a well rounded character, you have to think twink about your combat abilities.


If you want to have a character that can do cool and useful not-necessarily-combat stuff like craft, socialize, stealth, ride, or take a couple charms purely for concept/aesthetics, and then not be a total gimp in combat, you have to pick your combat charms efficiently. The good and bad thing about this is that the combat charms, once you get 2 or 3 deep in a tree, are a lot better than the first two in that utility tree. There's a strong incentive to take that 3rd/4th combat charm and be that much more awesome, because its just better than the first two craft/perform/social/etc. charms, maybe even combined.


The real difference between this outlook and twinking, is that true twinks take all combat charms in order to maximize effectiveness in that field, whereas we're trying to maximize efficiency so that we can be compatent in several fields. This means finding the path of least prereq-resistance to a reflexive defense, and a good attack charm. Extra Action charms are usually what you want for an attack because they're good at whittling down defenses when you don't have a huge attack pool to split, or huge enough damage to roll more essence anyways. If you can, you want to try to get a charm that lets you buy extra dice/successes to hit along the way.


If you do it right you can have a solid offensive and defensive strategy with 4-6 charms, leaving you with enough charm slots to get 3rd tier charms for one or more of your other abilities, and/or a pure style charm or two.


...should I submit this as an article? Idunno, I'm really just musing about the game.

 

[Flagg]

I know that sounds contradictory, but the more I mess around with Exalted chargen the more I realize that in order to build a well rounded character, you have to think twink about your combat abilities.

I wholeheartedly disagree. There is nothing wrong with a character having less-than-stellar combat capability if that's not their focus.


If you find yourself unable to enjoy and participate in an Exalted game because you aren't min/maxed for combat (which is what you're talking about), then it's the fault of your ST for not providing your non-combat-oriented character with avenues to show his strengths.


-S

 

[Silence In Daylight]

In Exalted, the key behind being effective in combat isn't necessarily being effective on offense, but being effective on defense.


 Defense trumps offense in Exalted--the abort-to defense, cheaper charm costs for defense, and so on. So, even if the Exalt doesn't have a single offensive charm, having Shadow Over Water or Dipping Swallow Defense will keep the character living for quite a while against comparable opposition. Then, if and when one attacks, one can try to split and draw off as many defenses of the opposition so that the combat-effective characters can swoop in for the kill.


 At the very least, if forced to abort, you're soaking up attacks that may have targeted the other members of your Circle.


 Is it frustrating to play, knowing that your character is simply the waving red cape for the matador? Well, you weren't playing a combat-oriented character to begin with, were you?

 

[lowguppy]

I really consider Exalted to be a combat-first game. Yes you can work a lot of non-combat stuff into a game as an ST, but the difference in the sheer scale of power between combat abilities and non-combat abilities is HUGE. Just look at how many martial arts/melee/archery charms there are vs everything else. The system is based on hitting things, and trying not to get hit by things. Even in a well balanced game, for at leat half of the problems you face violence will be a viable solution. If its any less than that, you have to seriously ask yourself why the fuck you're playing Exalted. Sometimes you need 75+ raw damage because you run into shit with 20+ soak and 20+ health levels, and while you could just run away from that shit, its so much more fun to take a shot at beating hell from it (and then running, or having your friends carry you off).


I have a pretty analytical mind, so I really can't help but look at a system like this. I always try to get a handle on the system and what's important so that I can build around a pure concept and still have a character that functions both in the world and the system. A purely twinked character really only functions in part of the system, albeit a large part, and in those times when they're supposed to do stuff other than hit things are usually exposed. On the other hand, if you ignore combat altogether, you're still min-maxing, just for other things, or you're pretty mediocre at everything and while you can roleplay your ass off and really fit into the world, when the dice start rolling the system will just eat you.


So what I'm talking about is being judicious in your choice of combat tools so that you can afford to be mechanically inefficient with other aspects of your character that truly fit your concept and let you build a truly multi-dimensional character.

 

[Flagg]

I really consider Exalted to be a combat-first game. Yes you can work a lot of non-combat stuff into a game as an ST, but the difference in the sheer scale of power between combat abilities and non-combat abilities is HUGE. Just look at how many martial arts/melee/archery charms there are vs everything else.

To a point, yes. I think the Ability to literally shape reality from pure Chaos is WAY more pwoerful than any sword-swinging Charm will ever be. However, you are right in thinking that Exalted is over-blanaced toward combat.


However, this is something they're supposedly fixing in 2nd Edition, so the developers obviously feel that this is not ideal.

The system is based on hitting things, and trying not to get hit by things.

The COMBAT system is, yes, but that's what combat IS. There's plenty to Exalted that has nothing at all to do with hitting stuff.

Even in a well balanced game, for at leat half of the problems you face violence will be a viable solution. If its any less than that, you have to seriously ask yourself why the fuck you're playing Exalted.

Because you enjoy the rich setting? The colorful and imaginiative characters that inhabit the game? The ability to play a demigod hero?


If all you care about is combat, THEN you might want to ask why you're playing Exalted. There are games that focus a lot less on creativity and storytelling that you could spend your time and money on instead.

Sometimes you need 75+ raw damage because you run into shit with 20+ soak and 20+ health levels

This is ONLY true if your ST makes it true.

So what I'm talking about is being judicious in your choice of combat tools so that you can afford to be mechanically inefficient with other aspects of your character that truly fit your concept and let you build a truly multi-dimensional character.

What if "truly fitting your character concept" doesn't involve being a killing-machine? Having an efficient selection of combat abilities DOESN'T fit every concept. If you're taking a non-combat character, and forcing combat Charms on him, you're NOT being true to concept.


Note: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with how you build your characters, but there's nothing necessary in your process either. You seem to enjoy combat a lot, so you make sure your characters are combat-capable. That's fine. However, stating that ALL characters NEED to be built this way is as ridiculous as it is false.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

I'm not trying to say anyone has to do anything when they build their character, I'm just trying to say that in most cases being a demigod involves being able to wield a weapon with some proficiency, and not get your ass handed to you. If you don't want that to be all your character does, its helpful to approach combat like I've described. The group I play in has a couple pretty novice gamers, and a few real vets, including myself. Exalted can be a really tricky system to wrap your head around, because being a demigod, just about every charm sounds cool and awesome, and with a pretty limited number of starting charms you really have to pick your charms carefully, and if you're in love with several of them for your concept, and still want to be a legitimate fighter you need to know what combat charms are going to save your ass, and which aren't. Again, there are just so many combat charms that are full of the colorful descriptions we love that its hard for someone unfamiliar with the game to chose wisely. Maybe the people on this forum are  too hardcore already to really need this advice, but I'm just throwing it out there. I just feel bad when I see a player put a lot of time and energy into making a character that they think is awesome, only to have it be unable to do what they imagine it doing.


Exalted isn't the only RPG I play, but I play it for the over-the top fantasy/anime flavor, and over the top combat is part of that. I'd rather be a badass among badasses than a wannabe badass who can't kill extras. The fact that the game classifies "extras" is part of what makes it what it is. In contrast, my favorite RPG, Unknown Armies, does not favor combat at all. The core book has 6 suggestions to players for resolving potentially violent conflict, 5 of which essentially involve running away. UA is a totally different genre, so I expect different things from it.

 

[Persell]

For strategy i wholeheartedly agree with Silence in Dayligh... a couple of defense charms can make a combat weak character still damn useful in combat against about anything. Sure your fasttalker is not going to beat that duskcaste abyssal to a bloody pulp... but that was not the point in the first place anyway.


And for the rest... exalted is a game geared towards hitting things cause many charms are good to whack stuff with them? That logic is kinda flawed, it is like saying that the United states is a nation of conquering barbarians cause they got a big army/airforce/navy. Even a combat heavy character can choose non violent solutions... actually one half of the exalted setting is asian kung fu stuff which is full of old kung fu sifus who only fight when it is absolutely neccessary and get killed a lot cause they choose not to defend themselves for philosphical reasons.


I absolutely got nothing against combat heavy characters but choosing charms in a twinkish way (i.e. not furhtering the character concept) cause the game is geared towards violence in your opinoin is odd.

 

[Flagg]

I'm not trying to say anyone has to do anything when they build their character

Then perhaps you should stop making absolute statements.


-S

 

[uteck]

There are a few non-combat Charms that can work well in Combat like Distracting Banter Technique and Memory Reweaving Technique that can be worth quite a few combat Charms.  


For the most part my Eclipse sucks in combat, but sometimes he puts on the 'tin can' and becomes a target since he can't get through the 20+ soaks well, but that extra target in the fight can make the differance.  But now he has a perfect Dodge so the tin can is not needed anymore.  So now he just irritates and annoys opponets and makes them spend lots of Essence trying to hit him.  Still valuable in combat, without being one of the 'big guns'.

 

[lowguppy]

Sorcery can do some crazy ass shit in any aspect of the game, and if it fits the concept may be the best way to have a full toolkit of, wel, tools at your disposal. In some ways you can forego some of the typical offensive/defensive charms in favor of spells, though its an essence and willpower heavy way to do it. There's also plenty of stuff sorcery can do that charms just can't, so you might prefer taking the more unique spells for flavor/utility and devote a few more charms at least to defensive combat.


I guess what this all boils down to is that there are many ways to build a functional Exalted character, and I think the mechanics tend to promote extremity in the way charm trees mushroom. Its pretty easy to make a character that's really good at one thing at the expense of others, I managed it with my first solar without much trouble. What's more difficult is building a character that do more than a couple things without spreading themselves too thin, making them not very good at anything. Most interesting characters are good at something that's not always useful, and you should be able to choose to do that without sacrificing too much overall utility.

 

[Flagg]

You also have to keep in mind that a starting character isn't supposed to be a master of everything. A good, solid character takes time (and XP) to develop.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

Exactly, and if you try to master everything as a starting character, you're gonna end up sucking at everything. So if you pick your combat charms carefully you can be fairly good a a couple more, let's call them "situational" abilities without being totally awful in a fight.

 

[Flagg]

The point I'm trying to impress upon you is that, while it's importnant for YOU to have a starting character who can fight, it's not important to everyone. Sometimes not even remotely.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

And I totally understand that. Just like you don't think a character should have to devote anything to combat, I don't think a character should (or does) have to entirely give up combat in order to do other stuff. Its just the way the game is presented and built it can be difficult to see how to acheive either of those options. I don't think we disagree as much as some of our earlier posts might suggest, but hey, that's the fucking internet for ya.

 

[Flagg]

I don't think we disagree as much as some of our earlier posts might suggest, but hey, that's the fucking internet for ya.

Aww, man! Why did you have to get all reasonable and shit? I was about to start in with the ad hominem attacks. Now you've spoiled it. Ass.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

Corner Monkey! Monkey in the corner!


Damn I love this forum...

 

[Jakk Bey]

It entirely depends on the game.  


Yes, there are a LOT of combat Charms--because it's an anime based game, and in anime, there's a lot of emphasis on swinging dicks and giant swordplay.


But that hardly means that's the only thing that's important.  If you think about it, most mythic figures tend to go into combat rarely.  Then, against big critters, but most of them were thinkers.  How did the Labyrinth bet beaten?  Not by clubbing walls, or even beating the Minotaur, but with a string.   How did Odysseus beat the cyclops?  By tricking his ass, lying to his face, getting him piss drunk and then blinding the poor bastard.  The blinding was done Sneaky Pete fashion even, not a straight up fight.  Same with Hercules, who, while the strongest man on earth, tended to trick and outhink his opponents rather than just beat them down.  Ask the Amazons.  Hydra poison on his arrows.


If you run a combat heavy game, then it makes sense to make combat capable characters.  Me, I tend to see what characters folks bring in, and then gear the game to them.  That means that I tweak the game to challenge what folks bring to the table, rather than the other way around.  A good ST won't stack a game against characters and be absolute in the style of play, if the players aren't interested in it.  


I have players who tend to be thinkers.  Schemers.  Yes, they'll beat the tar out of something, but they'd rather trick or negotiate, and that means their social skills are much more important than their combat abilities most of the time.  Their Craft and Occult are huge.  Investigation and Larceny are big ones.  


It depends on what kind of game you're running.  I don't run one style of game alone, I gear up the game to the characters that are at the table, not the other way around.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Now that the poorest-excuse-for-a-flame-war is over...


 What would people consider as combat twinking for a starting character? A persistent defense? Both defense-buying charms? Iron Whirlwind? Cascade of Cutting Terror?

 

[Flagg]

...and then there was Cuchulainn, who just decapitated motherfuckers.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

Oh yeah, I guess one thing sorta unique about my situation is that we've ended up cycling STs so I guess versatility is a little more important. Our ST who just wrapped up his story last night has been kinda rough on us combat wise, so I might be a little angsty about that, but it was rough on the characters that were competant enough at combat, but still not really ready as players for that kind of action.

 

[Flagg]

I remember a character in one of my early Earthdawn games. He was a Troubadour (bard), and routinely got his ass whipped in combat for months.


Then he got some crazy-ass armor and became the group's badass.


The moral of this story: It's not all in the Charms.


-S

 

[lowguppy]

Oh fucking yeah, why do you think I'm trying to figure out how artifact creation in Savant and Sorceror actually fucking works? I think I've got a good handle on the Power level now, except for how to apply soak bonus...

 

[Silence In Daylight]

It's so much easier if you go from an established artifact first...


 ...except for Armor. The BWB artifact armor is way overpriced, mostly. Use Dragon Armor as the baseline.

 

[Zaramis]

Or, you just ignore the flawed Solar-book, and look at a book that is much better designed:


... guess?


Dragon Blooded! It has full charm trees for every ability, with extremely useful stuff for almost everything. Check it out. My players were horrified when we finally left the Dragon Blooded scene to try Solars out ( PLayed like several long DB campaigns without ever playing Solars ), and they found like, FOUR charms in certain trees ( Awareness ) and stuff like that.


So we decided to wait until 2nd Ed.


Also, Melee > Archery. In melee, you can specialize in "Sword" for example, and always fight with a sword. With archery, you can't specialize in "Bow" It doesnt include any examples of special bows or anything in the specializing examples of Archery.

 

[Flagg]

Also, Melee > Archery. In melee, you can specialize in "Sword" for example, and always fight with a sword. With archery, you can't specialize in "Bow" It doesnt include any examples of special bows or anything in the specializing examples of Archery.

You can specialize in aything your ST will allow. It doesn't have to be on a list from the books.


-S