Opinion Thoughts of a Pro-Lifer

[Rhajaki]

I hate to make anyone mad with this statement, but thought simply doesn't exist without a mind to produce it. A mind is a collection of firing neurons that process information--which does not exist within a child who has just been conceived.
by this point we may as well agree to disagree. After all, something which does not exist cannot be proven to exist or not to exist.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

I hate to make anyone mad with this statement, but thought simply doesn't exist without a mind to produce it. A mind is a collection of firing neurons that process information--which does not exist within a child who has just been conceived.
by this point we may as well agree to disagree. After all, something which does not exist cannot be proven to exist or not to exist.

Indeed we shall... we'd get into religious beliefs otherwise. I appreciate that you made your statements clear and respectful. Not everybody has the consideration to do that lately.

 

[Project Naiad]

Last time I checked there were scientific proofs that a cluster of developing cells doesn't have a brain, and therefore thought. Belief in something doesn't necessarily make that thing real.

 

[Rhajaki]

Last time I checked there were scientific proofs that a cluster of developing cells doesn't have a brain, and therefore thought. Belief in something doesn't necessarily make that thing real.

I understand the frustration when encountering a person who cannot be persuaded even with concrete proof. In this case I can also understand that her belief is strongly tied to the spiritual aspect rather than scientific. You can't disprove, or prove anything spiritual with a scientific point of view. Also, since spirituality is very subjective, You cannot prove or disprove another's beliefs with your own.

 

[MsPolite]

I understand the frustration when encountering a person who cannot be persuaded even with concrete proof. In this case I can also understand that her belief is strongly tied to the spiritual aspect rather than scientific. You can't disprove, or prove anything spiritual with a scientific point of view. Also, since spirituality is very subjective, You cannot prove or disprove another's beliefs with your own.

heyyyy politics fun stuff here may i join even though yall might hate me xD

 

[Bacon is fluffy]

For me it's personally a subjective take based on the idea what is considered alive. Until a baby is bawling and wailing as it comes out of the vagina or C-section, it's not alive. Although this doesn't mean I want to see third term abortions(mostly because it is horrific as fuck). What I do distinguish is whether the fetus transitions to being a baby or if it doesn't make it. If it doesn't need a birth certificate, it's not actually a human.

This is the same argument for why we can kill off livestock and eat them without batting an eye. There's a difference between a fetus and a breathing baby. Just as there's a difference between human life and a cow. But this is just my opinion on it. It's probably one of the only things I actually struggle to have a clear and cut stance on it and end up drawing arbitrary lines in the sand.

 

[Project Naiad]

I understand the frustration when encountering a person who cannot be persuaded even with concrete proof. In this case I can also understand that her belief is strongly tied to the spiritual aspect rather than scientific. You can't disprove, or prove anything spiritual with a scientific point of view. Also, since spirituality is very subjective, You cannot prove or disprove another's beliefs with your own.

Yeah, and it's not my intention. However conception is not a spiritual concept, it's very real and measurable.
I may very well say that I believe rocks are alive and capable of thought, but there are scientific facts that tell us that's not true.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

heyyyy politics fun stuff here may i join even though yall might hate me xD

If you're respectful, I will appreciate your being here. Even if I do disagree strongly with your point of view on this topic.

 

[MsPolite]

If you're respectful, I will appreciate your being here. Even if I do disagree strongly with your point of view on this topic.

ok ty. DISCLAIMER IM NOT ADVOCATING FOR EITHER SIDE JUST WANT TO BRING UP A POINT
Do you know Ben Shapiro, he brings up a point about abortion is when do we draw the line and if we draw a line how can it apply to other things. for example people who advocate for late to mid term abortion might say the baby isnt a life yet because it isnt consionces (i cant spell im sorry). But u could easily apply that to people in a coma or who are in a vegetable state or anything else.

 

[Tarmagon]

Rachael of the Shire Before I say anything about the actual topic, please answer a single question for me. It's there ever a circumstance where the taking of a life (human for the sake of argument) is acceptable?

 

[Rhajaki]

Yeah, and it's not my intention. However conception is not a spiritual concept, it's very real and measurable.
I may very well say that I believe rocks are alive and capable of thought, but there are scientific facts that tell us that's not true.

With this response, I feel my point has gone over your head. This may of course be due to your lack of height--(Just joking) Conception is viewed in a spiritual sense as well as a scientific sense no matter how well grounded in reality or measurement. Regardless of proof, beliefs, no matter how wrong, will still remain ingrained in a person's mind. I'm not saying her beliefs are right, I'm saying it would be close minded to not try putting yourself in her shoes. Are her views ignorant? Perhaps. But that is your view against hers. I often become understanding by setting aside my views when approaching someone else's. I find I have better conversations with people when I do this, and I even learn something new.
Before you continue, I'd suggest trying the same thing.

 

[Project Naiad]

With this response, I feel my point has gone over your head. This may of course be due to your lack of height--(Just joking) Conception is viewed in a spiritual sense as well as a scientific sense no matter how well grounded in reality or measurement. Regardless of proof, beliefs, no matter how wrong, will still remain ingrained in a person's mind. I'm not saying her beliefs are right, I'm saying it would be close minded to not try putting yourself in her shoes. Are her views ignorant? Perhaps. But that is your view against hers. I often become understanding by setting aside my views when approaching someone else's. I find I have better conversations with people when I do this, and I even learn something new.
Before you continue, I'd suggest trying the same thing.

Thanks for the advice, I should probably follow it more than I already do.
However I don't think it's my views against hers (if anything, it's fact against views), and not even that, cause I'm not trying to convert anyone. This thread was posted, I replied with my opinion.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

Rachael of the Shire Before I say anything about the actual topic, please answer a single question for me. It's there ever a circumstance where the taking of a life (human for the sake of argument) is acceptable?

Although this is off topic, here's my quick answer.

Taking of a human life is justifiable in two situations -

1. In self defense or to defend innocents(killing someone who tries to knife you or your kids in an alley)

2. To eliminate adults who have intentionally taken or attempted to take lives for reasons other than those listed in situation 1. (execution of murderers)

 

[Tarmagon]

Although this is off topic, here's my quick answer.

Taking of a human life is justifiable in two situations -

1. In self defense or to defend innocents(killing someone who tries to knife you or your kids in an alley)

2. To eliminate adults who have intentionally taken or attempted to take lives for reasons other than those listed in situation 1. (execution of murderers)

Actually, it is not off topic. I am merely seeking to understand your position. To this end, I posed my question. Thank you for the succinct response. Please clarify one item for me. In order to justify the taking of the life, the person to be removed from this plane of existence must have made a conscious choice to threaten/take a life?

 

[Project Naiad]

Death for murderers seems kinda harsh to me. But yeah this is off topic I guess.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

Actually, it is not off topic. I am merely seeking to understand your position. To this end, I posed my question. Thank you for the succinct response. Please clarify one item for me. In order to justify the taking of the life, the person to be removed from this plane of existence must have made a conscious choice to threaten/take a life?

That is correct.

 

[Tarmagon]

That is correct.

Very well. I respect your position but disagree with it. I'm not going to construct a bunch of 'what if scenarios', I'm just going to politely agree to disagree. Thank you for answering.

 

[Hige]

As a spiritual / religious person I'm still adamantly pro-choice. I don't know if this is a hold over from my athiest days, but I feel even if I were to dislike pro-choice, I realize that forcing women out of abortions causes just as much harm as it does good (unwanted children can be abused or abandoned, causing strain on foster care systems and what have you).
My motto on the subject has always been, and should always be: "it's not my lfie, so it's not my decision."

Abortion has been around for a long time, and in many other cultures (thinking of african cultures) they were accepted. (We know from empires tyranny over the colonies they were offended by abortion and tried to stop it, promoting their christian values over the ethics and culture of the natives). I bring this up because other religions or groups may see (and some do, obviously) abortion entirely different than what you and I do. To force our own personal believes on an opinionated matter (you cannot prove that a child has a soul, although, several people have pointed out that yes, fetus' don't have conciousness for quite some time during gestation) is wrong and rather offensive in certain contexts (thinking specifically of enforcing western values onto different cultures, but really, it also applies to religious government officials enforcing their beliefs on the more secular of our nation).

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

So it seems a lot of people base their choices on a few factors -

1. Does life begin at conception?

2. If life does begin at conception, is that life a full life like yours or mine?

3. If the answer to either of the above questions is no, when does that life begin, and what factors decide when it ends?

I find that maintaining the belief of life at conception makes the questions of who lives or dies a lot simpler.

 

[Rusty of Shackleford]

Now, I don't want to sound like what I'm saying is right, and everyone who disagrees is wrong, but I think that starts when the sperm fertilizes the egg. After that, while the brain develops later on, it's still life. It's not what it is, it's what in can be. That's how I see it.

 

[JayTee]

The brain doesn't stop developing until around 25 years of age.

Strictly speaking, you could abort them at age 24, because they technically aren't a fully developed person yet.

Obviously this is stupid, but attempting to define when a person is a "person" or "alive" is something that is literally impossible to define, as it's all a matter of opinion.

Science just tells you at what stage of development you're at. Nothing more. Personhood and being "alive" or not is something philosophers discuss, not scientists.

 

[hails]

I am pro-choice, wholeheartedly and unwavering. Not in certain situations, not excluding certain people. I believe any and every person with a uterus deserves the decision of whether or not they want to incubate another being for nine months.

Pregnancies are hard on the body. Pregnancies can kill people, they can cause life-long complications, and they take a lot out of a person emotionally. Nobody should have to sacrifice their own body to provide an existence for another.

I wrote a speech for a public speaking class a year ago that I hope some of you may read and gain a better understanding for the pro-choice movement.

Imagine you leave your door unlocked. Someone walks into your house. Now imagine they are tearing up your home, interrupting your daily life, causing problems and generally stressing you out. I can almost guarantee that a lot of you wouldn’t just accept this and deal with the consequences. But it’s your fault, you left the door unlocked and you should have known that leaving the door unlocked can have consequences. After all, Doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now imagine this man decides to stay for 18 years. After the first few years, things get better, he is calmer and less destructive, but he is financially and emotionally dependant on you. He has nowhere else to go, and if you kick him out, he dies. You cannot afford the burden of this man and are faced with a tough decision.

But you left your door unlocked, and doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now apply this to a more realistic scenario. You are a woman who has just found out that she is pregnant. Maybe you can’t afford to have a baby, maybe you aren’t ready, maybe your body can’t handle the physical and emotional strain of a pregnancy. But you had sex, and sex IS for making babies.

This all sounds kind of ridiculous. Many people would not allow another person to stay in their home uninvited, destroy their belongings, and drain them financially and emotionally. So why, in our society, do people REALLY expect sexually active women to sacrifice what may be her entire life and body for something that she never asked for in the first place? Because she left her doors unlocked? Because she had sex?

Almost ⅓ of all pregnancies in the United States are unplanned. Lack of sex education in schools can be to blame, with many places, including Hernando County, teaching an abstinence-based curriculum in health classes instead of educating students on the dangers of unprotected sex. In addition, woman’s chances of becoming pregnant following a rape in which her attacker used no contraceptive measures is around 5%, or 1 in every 20 cases. Some women do not have access to affordable birth control or condoms that places such as Planned Parenthood and other health clinics provide, and therefore choose to opt out of protection, and although majority of this is due to unprotected sex, women can become pregnant while on birth control or using any other form of contraceptive.

Just for your reference, the effectiveness of different methods of birth control are as follows:

Condoms: 75-85% effective

Various methods of female birth control: 92%

Pulling out: 75%

No Contraceptives: 15%

So, we’ll get back to what I was saying before. You do not want to be pregnant. What are your options? Well, you could have the baby and then go ahead and put your baby up for adoption, which still entails you suffering through the pregnancy and possibly having to live with serious complications that may arise. You could choose to keep the baby once it is born and raise him or her, but it could ruin plans for your own future and possibly impact your future child if you are unable to support them financially or emotionally and give them the love that children need and deserve. Your third option is abortion.

Abortion was made legal in 1973 by the US Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade case. This entitled a woman to have an abortion at any time during the first trimester without any interference from the state. State laws vary, with places such as Indiana and Kansas only allowing abortion until the 22nd week, or places like Alaska and Colorado where there are no restrictions and it is taken on a case-by-case basis. There have been many attempts at banning it in the years since, but they have proved unsuccessful.

The right to an abortion boils down to a woman’s right to choose. Her body, her decision. Many pro-life advocates believe that is not in fact her decision, because the fetus that is growing inside of her is a living thing..

Those who base their pro-life beliefs on religion often define life’s starting point at conception. In Genesis 2:7, it states that the first human being became a LIVING being when God blew into his nostrils and he began to breathe. Another passage, beginning at Exodus 21:22, explains the story of a woman who jumps in to break up a fight between two men but sustains injuries that cause her to miscarry. The proper penalty for murder at the time was the “eye for an eye” policy, but the man who inflicted the injuries was not put to death. Instead, the fetus was considered property, and the man was forced to pay a fine to the woman’s husband in order to settle things. Nowhere in the bible does it say that life begins at conception.

Studies also suggest that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until around the later half of the third trimester, and some argue that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until it is completely carried to term. This means that a fetus is not self-aware and has no real idea that it has a possible future ahead of it, or that it even alive. We do not give the brain-dead man on life support the option to sustain his own life, so why do we place that decision in the hands of a fetus, who is not even self-aware, rather than the mother, who already has an established life that could be severely impacted by the birth of a child?

I’ve also noticed that a lot of people have this middle-ground where they like to stand, justifying abortion only if the mother has been raped or if the fetus is threatening her life in some way. I want to make it completely clear that I think that it’s ridiculous to only allow a woman the right of choice when her body has been violated by either another person or an illness. Women deserve choice no matter what, under any circumstance, period. Making abortion illegal will never eliminate abortion, it will eliminate SAFE abortions.

Keeping abortion legal in the United States is not only the right thing to do, it is the SAFE thing to do. Before the Roe v. Wade ruling, research shows that in 1930, over 2,400 woman had abortion listed as their official cause of death. That number decreased due to the introduction of antibiotics, but still made up 17% of all maternal deaths during pregnancy in the 1960s.

The death rate of women who choose to abort now in the US is .06%, and is usually due to prior health complications that were not disclosed to the clinic beforehand. 70% of woman claimed that they were still happy with their decision to abort two years later and felt that it was the right thing to do for their future. In addition, some food for thought, a study done 18 years after Roe v. Wade shows a significant decrease in crime rates in the 1990’s for states who had high abortion rates in the 70’s, right after abortion was legalized. This can be attributed to less children being raised by unfit or unprepared mothers who did not care for them and teach them right from wrong, leading them to a life of crime.

I want to wrap this up by referencing that man again. The one who walked into your house and refused to leave for 18 years. The next time you feel like criticizing a woman for her decision to abort, just remember that man. Ask yourself, “Would I allow him to stay? Would I sacrifice myself for this stranger who entered my life uninvited?”
​

 

[Rhajaki]

I am pro-choice, wholeheartedly and unwavering. Not in certain situations, not excluding certain people. I believe any and every person with a uterus deserves the decision of whether or not they want to incubate another being for nine months.

Pregnancies are hard on the body. Pregnancies can kill people, they can cause life-long complications, and they take a lot out of a person emotionally. Nobody should have to sacrifice their own body to provide an existence for another.

I wrote a speech for a public speaking class a year ago that I hope some of you may read and gain a better understanding for the pro-choice movement.

Imagine you leave your door unlocked. Someone walks into your house. Now imagine they are tearing up your home, interrupting your daily life, causing problems and generally stressing you out. I can almost guarantee that a lot of you wouldn’t just accept this and deal with the consequences. But it’s your fault, you left the door unlocked and you should have known that leaving the door unlocked can have consequences. After all, Doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now imagine this man decides to stay for 18 years. After the first few years, things get better, he is calmer and less destructive, but he is financially and emotionally dependant on you. He has nowhere else to go, and if you kick him out, he dies. You cannot afford the burden of this man and are faced with a tough decision.

But you left your door unlocked, and doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now apply this to a more realistic scenario. You are a woman who has just found out that she is pregnant. Maybe you can’t afford to have a baby, maybe you aren’t ready, maybe your body can’t handle the physical and emotional strain of a pregnancy. But you had sex, and sex IS for making babies.

This all sounds kind of ridiculous. Many people would not allow another person to stay in their home uninvited, destroy their belongings, and drain them financially and emotionally. So why, in our society, do people REALLY expect sexually active women to sacrifice what may be her entire life and body for something that she never asked for in the first place? Because she left her doors unlocked? Because she had sex?

Almost ⅓ of all pregnancies in the United States are unplanned. Lack of sex education in schools can be to blame, with many places, including Hernando County, teaching an abstinence-based curriculum in health classes instead of educating students on the dangers of unprotected sex. In addition, woman’s chances of becoming pregnant following a rape in which her attacker used no contraceptive measures is around 5%, or 1 in every 20 cases. Some women do not have access to affordable birth control or condoms that places such as Planned Parenthood and other health clinics provide, and therefore choose to opt out of protection, and although majority of this is due to unprotected sex, women can become pregnant while on birth control or using any other form of contraceptive.

Just for your reference, the effectiveness of different methods of birth control are as follows:

Condoms: 75-85% effective

Various methods of female birth control: 92%

Pulling out: 75%

No Contraceptives: 15%

So, we’ll get back to what I was saying before. You do not want to be pregnant. What are your options? Well, you could have the baby and then go ahead and put your baby up for adoption, which still entails you suffering through the pregnancy and possibly having to live with serious complications that may arise. You could choose to keep the baby once it is born and raise him or her, but it could ruin plans for your own future and possibly impact your future child if you are unable to support them financially or emotionally and give them the love that children need and deserve. Your third option is abortion.

Abortion was made legal in 1973 by the US Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade case. This entitled a woman to have an abortion at any time during the first trimester without any interference from the state. State laws vary, with places such as Indiana and Kansas only allowing abortion until the 22nd week, or places like Alaska and Colorado where there are no restrictions and it is taken on a case-by-case basis. There have been many attempts at banning it in the years since, but they have proved unsuccessful.

The right to an abortion boils down to a woman’s right to choose. Her body, her decision. Many pro-life advocates believe that is not in fact her decision, because the fetus that is growing inside of her is a living thing..

Those who base their pro-life beliefs on religion often define life’s starting point at conception. In Genesis 2:7, it states that the first human being became a LIVING being when God blew into his nostrils and he began to breathe. Another passage, beginning at Exodus 21:22, explains the story of a woman who jumps in to break up a fight between two men but sustains injuries that cause her to miscarry. The proper penalty for murder at the time was the “eye for an eye” policy, but the man who inflicted the injuries was not put to death. Instead, the fetus was considered property, and the man was forced to pay a fine to the woman’s husband in order to settle things. Nowhere in the bible does it say that life begins at conception.

Studies also suggest that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until around the later half of the third trimester, and some argue that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until it is completely carried to term. This means that a fetus is not self-aware and has no real idea that it has a possible future ahead of it, or that it even alive. We do not give the brain-dead man on life support the option to sustain his own life, so why do we place that decision in the hands of a fetus, who is not even self-aware, rather than the mother, who already has an established life that could be severely impacted by the birth of a child?

I’ve also noticed that a lot of people have this middle-ground where they like to stand, justifying abortion only if the mother has been raped or if the fetus is threatening her life in some way. I want to make it completely clear that I think that it’s ridiculous to only allow a woman the right of choice when her body has been violated by either another person or an illness. Women deserve choice no matter what, under any circumstance, period. Making abortion illegal will never eliminate abortion, it will eliminate SAFE abortions.

Keeping abortion legal in the United States is not only the right thing to do, it is the SAFE thing to do. Before the Roe v. Wade ruling, research shows that in 1930, over 2,400 woman had abortion listed as their official cause of death. That number decreased due to the introduction of antibiotics, but still made up 17% of all maternal deaths during pregnancy in the 1960s.

The death rate of women who choose to abort now in the US is .06%, and is usually due to prior health complications that were not disclosed to the clinic beforehand. 70% of woman claimed that they were still happy with their decision to abort two years later and felt that it was the right thing to do for their future. In addition, some food for thought, a study done 18 years after Roe v. Wade shows a significant decrease in crime rates in the 1990’s for states who had high abortion rates in the 70’s, right after abortion was legalized. This can be attributed to less children being raised by unfit or unprepared mothers who did not care for them and teach them right from wrong, leading them to a life of crime.

I want to wrap this up by referencing that man again. The one who walked into your house and refused to leave for 18 years. The next time you feel like criticizing a woman for her decision to abort, just remember that man. Ask yourself, “Would I allow him to stay? Would I sacrifice myself for this stranger who entered my life uninvited?”
​

You have my admiration and respect. I love how well written it is and the apparent research and time you've put into it. Not many in today's world or our generation are very good thinkers, but you are one of them. If you are interested, i'd like to chat with you via PM. Do you like philosophy? Do you like debates? If you do, than i think it'll be fun. I also have plans to go on youtube and tackle some issues in today's world including the above subject by communicating ideas and ways of thinking many refuse to consider. I hope to talk with you soon.

 

[Rachael of the Shire]

I am pro-choice, wholeheartedly and unwavering. Not in certain situations, not excluding certain people. I believe any and every person with a uterus deserves the decision of whether or not they want to incubate another being for nine months.

Pregnancies are hard on the body. Pregnancies can kill people, they can cause life-long complications, and they take a lot out of a person emotionally. Nobody should have to sacrifice their own body to provide an existence for another.

I wrote a speech for a public speaking class a year ago that I hope some of you may read and gain a better understanding for the pro-choice movement.

Imagine you leave your door unlocked. Someone walks into your house. Now imagine they are tearing up your home, interrupting your daily life, causing problems and generally stressing you out. I can almost guarantee that a lot of you wouldn’t just accept this and deal with the consequences. But it’s your fault, you left the door unlocked and you should have known that leaving the door unlocked can have consequences. After all, Doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now imagine this man decides to stay for 18 years. After the first few years, things get better, he is calmer and less destructive, but he is financially and emotionally dependant on you. He has nowhere else to go, and if you kick him out, he dies. You cannot afford the burden of this man and are faced with a tough decision.

But you left your door unlocked, and doors ARE used for walking into homes.

Now apply this to a more realistic scenario. You are a woman who has just found out that she is pregnant. Maybe you can’t afford to have a baby, maybe you aren’t ready, maybe your body can’t handle the physical and emotional strain of a pregnancy. But you had sex, and sex IS for making babies.

This all sounds kind of ridiculous. Many people would not allow another person to stay in their home uninvited, destroy their belongings, and drain them financially and emotionally. So why, in our society, do people REALLY expect sexually active women to sacrifice what may be her entire life and body for something that she never asked for in the first place? Because she left her doors unlocked? Because she had sex?

Almost ⅓ of all pregnancies in the United States are unplanned. Lack of sex education in schools can be to blame, with many places, including Hernando County, teaching an abstinence-based curriculum in health classes instead of educating students on the dangers of unprotected sex. In addition, woman’s chances of becoming pregnant following a rape in which her attacker used no contraceptive measures is around 5%, or 1 in every 20 cases. Some women do not have access to affordable birth control or condoms that places such as Planned Parenthood and other health clinics provide, and therefore choose to opt out of protection, and although majority of this is due to unprotected sex, women can become pregnant while on birth control or using any other form of contraceptive.

Just for your reference, the effectiveness of different methods of birth control are as follows:

Condoms: 75-85% effective

Various methods of female birth control: 92%

Pulling out: 75%

No Contraceptives: 15%

So, we’ll get back to what I was saying before. You do not want to be pregnant. What are your options? Well, you could have the baby and then go ahead and put your baby up for adoption, which still entails you suffering through the pregnancy and possibly having to live with serious complications that may arise. You could choose to keep the baby once it is born and raise him or her, but it could ruin plans for your own future and possibly impact your future child if you are unable to support them financially or emotionally and give them the love that children need and deserve. Your third option is abortion.

Abortion was made legal in 1973 by the US Supreme Court in the Roe v. Wade case. This entitled a woman to have an abortion at any time during the first trimester without any interference from the state. State laws vary, with places such as Indiana and Kansas only allowing abortion until the 22nd week, or places like Alaska and Colorado where there are no restrictions and it is taken on a case-by-case basis. There have been many attempts at banning it in the years since, but they have proved unsuccessful.

The right to an abortion boils down to a woman’s right to choose. Her body, her decision. Many pro-life advocates believe that is not in fact her decision, because the fetus that is growing inside of her is a living thing..

Those who base their pro-life beliefs on religion often define life’s starting point at conception. In Genesis 2:7, it states that the first human being became a LIVING being when God blew into his nostrils and he began to breathe. Another passage, beginning at Exodus 21:22, explains the story of a woman who jumps in to break up a fight between two men but sustains injuries that cause her to miscarry. The proper penalty for murder at the time was the “eye for an eye” policy, but the man who inflicted the injuries was not put to death. Instead, the fetus was considered property, and the man was forced to pay a fine to the woman’s husband in order to settle things. Nowhere in the bible does it say that life begins at conception.

Studies also suggest that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until around the later half of the third trimester, and some argue that a fetus does not have a fully-developed brain until it is completely carried to term. This means that a fetus is not self-aware and has no real idea that it has a possible future ahead of it, or that it even alive. We do not give the brain-dead man on life support the option to sustain his own life, so why do we place that decision in the hands of a fetus, who is not even self-aware, rather than the mother, who already has an established life that could be severely impacted by the birth of a child?

I’ve also noticed that a lot of people have this middle-ground where they like to stand, justifying abortion only if the mother has been raped or if the fetus is threatening her life in some way. I want to make it completely clear that I think that it’s ridiculous to only allow a woman the right of choice when her body has been violated by either another person or an illness. Women deserve choice no matter what, under any circumstance, period. Making abortion illegal will never eliminate abortion, it will eliminate SAFE abortions.

Keeping abortion legal in the United States is not only the right thing to do, it is the SAFE thing to do. Before the Roe v. Wade ruling, research shows that in 1930, over 2,400 woman had abortion listed as their official cause of death. That number decreased due to the introduction of antibiotics, but still made up 17% of all maternal deaths during pregnancy in the 1960s.

The death rate of women who choose to abort now in the US is .06%, and is usually due to prior health complications that were not disclosed to the clinic beforehand. 70% of woman claimed that they were still happy with their decision to abort two years later and felt that it was the right thing to do for their future. In addition, some food for thought, a study done 18 years after Roe v. Wade shows a significant decrease in crime rates in the 1990’s for states who had high abortion rates in the 70’s, right after abortion was legalized. This can be attributed to less children being raised by unfit or unprepared mothers who did not care for them and teach them right from wrong, leading them to a life of crime.

I want to wrap this up by referencing that man again. The one who walked into your house and refused to leave for 18 years. The next time you feel like criticizing a woman for her decision to abort, just remember that man. Ask yourself, “Would I allow him to stay? Would I sacrifice myself for this stranger who entered my life uninvited?”
​

I like how you are willing to express a differing point of view without attacking anyone. I highly respect those with an open point of view like yours, and it helps me understand why people would make different decisions than I would. So you believe life begins at childbirth?

 

[madame moiselle]

And the thing is, there are adoption centers for the exact reason of being unable to take care of it.
The fact that it is all new and overwhelming to teen moms is a poor reason to not send people to adoption centers. Why? Because, no matter what you think, it does take time to set up an abortion. Therefore, the teenage mom has the time to think about it. If she had been asked the question out of the blue by the doctor right after learning and the choice would be put into effect immediately, then that would be logical reasoning that the new and overwhelming thought processes might lead to abortion. As such, that is not the case. While it may be that, yes, the experience would be new and overwhelming, the logic that adoption wouldn't even cross the teen mother's mind in the time it takes to set up an abortion is faulty.

A born child has no memories the moment after it's born. Is it a punishment to slit its throat right after it comes out? I hope we all agree the answer is yes.

Unless they are being held at gunpoint and told that they will have an abortion or their life is at risk, they have a choice. One may not be to their advantage in the short term, but either way, they have options until it's their life or the baby's.

I don't even want to address "Their child may be born so it suffers in life because of a syndrome or birth defect--natural or otherwise. In this case, letting it go is a means of preventing it from being abused by those who don't know what they're dealing with." Because then I'd have been duly elected to be "let go," and so would a great many number of people, on this site and off it. This is poor reasoning, and used by Ethiopian tribesmen, who designate babies with physical deformities as "mingi" and demand their execution.

There is also a great anime called Death Note that helps put the mass execution of criminals who haven't been tried and/or who may not have been worthy of the death sentence into perspective, but that doesn't make it any less morally questionable.
I don't have the time to read a whole book, for or against my side.


The child is lost!? Theoretically, this is in a hospital; they don't just lose a baby. Do you know how bad that would be if that was the case? "I'm sorry, ma'am, but we lost your child and can't find it anywhere."
Even if it isn't, of course just losing you child would be scarring. The reason their probably aren't that many people who have help for that is because misplacing your child is not a common occurrence.
And from what I can gather, you were actually talking about misplacing your child.

I think the logic is that because the mother does not need to be raised and have her every need met by someone else, she isn't nearly as urgent as the child. But hey, maybe we should take money from Planned Parenthood and put it towards reforming stuff like that.



I find it interesting that Christians find it morally reprehensible to abort a baby, and they are told to think of the teenaged mom. But the Bible also says that sex outside of marriage is a sin, so if it was actually implemented, the abortions wouldn't need to happen in the first place?
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.

Absolutely, I agree with you. Many pro-choicers use the argument of 'what if the woman was raped?' and they try to use it as a broadened term, as if all abortions were rape-based. Actually, only 0.3% abortions are rape-related and the percentage of mothers' lives in danger is even lower. I'm not against birth control, but I do believe that a fetus is a human being in development, and it has a natural right to life that no one has the authority to take away. We don't actually know if the baby is going to have a hard life---it's all based on guesses and what ifs. And this is North America---every person has a chance to rise up from poverty, has a chance to better their lives no matter how many times they get knocked back down.
Life is an invaluable thing---absolutely priceless. And killing a baby all because its inconvenient for you at the moment is nothing short of evil. It's not a random part of your body---it's a separate being with its own heartbeat by 3 weeks old. It's not like an appendix---it's a developing human life.

As for brainwaves---we define death as a loss of heartbeat and brain waves. We define heartbeat and brain waves as life. Fetuses develop both very early in the stages of development---by day 21, it hs a heart that pumps blood and by day forty, brain waves can be detected through an electroencephalogram (EEG). So it's indisputable fact that legal surgical abortions stop a beating heart and already measurable brain waves.

Just my opinion.

Rachael of the Shire
Hall Kervean