Those Outside Creation

[Vanman]

If a Solar somehow comes under the sway of a Deathlord - like Moray Darktide - does that Solar's actions then become immune to the Sidereal's power to read his fate, as they're working now for someone Outside Creation? Or does their inherent Solarness make them tied to the Loom of Fate?


Cheers,


V

 

[Flagg]

Fate isn't a matter of who you work for, it's a matter of your essential nature. Moray Darktide is as much a part of Fate as any Solar.


-S

 

[Vanman]

So then why isn't the Empress still included in Fate? Is it because she's been removed to Malfeas? If that's the case, then is any Solar who goes to Malfeas removed from Fate?

 

[StarHawk]

Malfeas is removed from fate. Those looking can't see there or into the wyld. If Moray Dartide is in Malfeas he can't be seen either.

 

[Vanman]

Thanks for that. But that brings up another question then: Do the Primordials know they're removed from Fate? That their actions can't be predicted? If so, could they then provide that cover to their servants in Creation, so that their actions couldn't be seen?


Cheers,


V

 

[Flagg]

The Primordials do indeed know this, because they invented Fate.


As far as using it to their advantage, I'm sure they do -- however when a being outside of Fate acts in Creation, it causes things to deviate from the way they were ordained to be, which causes noticeable ripples in the Loom. An agent of the Yozi in Creation must be subtle to avoid notice.


-S

 

[Vanman]

As far as using it to their advantage, I'm sure they do -- however when a being outside of Fate acts in Creation, it causes things to deviate from the way they were ordained to be, which causes noticeable ripples in the Loom. An agent of the Yozi in Creation must be subtle to avoid notice.
-S

Ah, but what if the Yozis didn't care about the agents? Someone who, in their eyes, was expendable? To use Moray Darktide again, what if the Silver Prince (or his Master) was able to hide his presence and have him do some nefarious deed, but then didn't care about the consequences of those actions? I think if the Primordials had nothing to lose, it would be an effective way to spring a surprise on the Celestial Hierarchy with little risk to themselves....

 

[Persell]

As far as using it to their advantage, I'm sure they do -- however when a being outside of Fate acts in Creation, it causes things to deviate from the way they were ordained to be, which causes noticeable ripples in the Loom. An agent of the Yozi in Creation must be subtle to avoid notice.
-S

Ah, but what if the Yozis didn't care about the agents? Someone who, in their eyes, was expendable? To use Moray Darktide again, what if the Silver Prince (or his Master) was able to hide his presence and have him do some nefarious deed, but then didn't care about the consequences of those actions? I think if the Primordials had nothing to lose, it would be an effective way to spring a surprise on the Celestial Hierarchy with little risk to themselves....

Loosing their favourite and most powerful servants is a big risk. Lets start with the yozis, loosing a second or even a third circle demon is no childs play and definitely not something they'd consider no risk. It can change their nature, weaken them and if the enemy cares to counterattack seriously it can destroy them and attacking heaven will surely provoke a serious counterattack even by those gods who do not care right now. Depending on the nature of the attack even the bronze faction might take the solars into the boat just to retaliate with style.


And the deathlords... first of all most solars and abyssals are right now considerably weaker than the agents a yozi can send and so the chance to loose them is bigger and then, loosing an abyssal is annoying, but loosing a solar is no fun at all, cause the reborn solar is not under the deathlord's control anymore, he becomes a wildcard again and might very well go again his former master. No fun.

 

[Forn Clakes]

Ah, but what if the Yozis didn't care about the agents? Someone who, in their eyes, was expendable? To use Moray Darktide again, what if the Silver Prince (or his Master) was able to hide his presence and have him do some nefarious deed, but then didn't care about the consequences of those actions? I think if the Primordials had nothing to lose, it would be an effective way to spring a surprise on the Celestial Hierarchy with little risk to themselves....

Sorry, I just to clarify something here, for my own personal satisfaction: Moray Darktide is aligned to the Silver Prince (a Deathlord), who is sworn to a Malfean and not a Yozi.


Is this correct or have I missed something?


~FC.

 

[Vanman]

Ah' date=' but what if the Yozis didn't care about the agents? Someone who, in their eyes, was expendable? To use Moray Darktide again, what if the Silver Prince (or his Master) was able to hide his presence and have him do some nefarious deed, but then didn't care about the consequences of those actions? I think if the Primordials had nothing to lose, it would be an effective way to spring a surprise on the Celestial Hierarchy with little risk to themselves....[/quote']
Sorry, I just to clarify something here, for my own personal satisfaction: Moray Darktide is aligned to the Silver Prince (a Deathlord), who is sworn to a Malfean and not a Yozi.


Is this correct or have I missed something?


~FC.

No, you're right. I was horribly unclear in my statement. But don't the Malfeans work under the same 'Outside Creation' banner that the Yozis do? I'd think they'd have to, or - and I may be remembering this wrong, so please ignore me if I have - the release of the Great Contagion would have been predictable. Yes?

 

[Vanman]

Loosing their favourite and most powerful servants is a big risk. Lets start with the yozis, loosing a second or even a third circle demon is no childs play and definitely not something they'd consider no risk. It can change their nature, weaken them and if the enemy cares to counterattack seriously it can destroy them and attacking heaven will surely provoke a serious counterattack even by those gods who do not care right now. Depending on the nature of the attack even the bronze faction might take the solars into the boat just to retaliate with style.
And the deathlords... first of all most solars and abyssals are right now considerably weaker than the agents a yozi can send and so the chance to loose them is bigger and then, loosing an abyssal is annoying, but loosing a solar is no fun at all, cause the reborn solar is not under the deathlord's control anymore, he becomes a wildcard again and might very well go again his former master. No fun.

Yes, I understand that a Yozi wouldn't want to use a demon, because the loss of that demon would seriously impact on him. And I also understand the risk of using a Solar, in that, if he dies, he may come back to work against him. But if the price is right, so to speak - if it was an attack on Heaven they were planning, then using Solars seems to me a perfect tool. Whilst the loss of the Solar might come back to haunt him later, that loss would affect him far less than losing one of his own minions would. Again, I know that he wouldn't want to foolishly throw away a valuable resource, but if the reward is great enough, the Exalt is extremely expendable, with little risk to the Primordial's own self.

 

[Persell]

Loosing their favourite and most powerful servants is a big risk. Lets start with the yozis, loosing a second or even a third circle demon is no childs play and definitely not something they'd consider no risk. It can change their nature, weaken them and if the enemy cares to counterattack seriously it can destroy them and attacking heaven will surely provoke a serious counterattack even by those gods who do not care right now. Depending on the nature of the attack even the bronze faction might take the solars into the boat just to retaliate with style.
And the deathlords... first of all most solars and abyssals are right now considerably weaker than the agents a yozi can send and so the chance to loose them is bigger and then, loosing an abyssal is annoying, but loosing a solar is no fun at all, cause the reborn solar is not under the deathlord's control anymore, he becomes a wildcard again and might very well go again his former master. No fun.

Yes, I understand that a Yozi wouldn't want to use a demon, because the loss of that demon would seriously impact on him. And I also understand the risk of using a Solar, in that, if he dies, he may come back to work against him. But if the price is right, so to speak - if it was an attack on Heaven they were planning, then using Solars seems to me a perfect tool. Whilst the loss of the Solar might come back to haunt him later, that loss would affect him far less than losing one of his own minions would. Again, I know that he wouldn't want to foolishly throw away a valuable resource, but if the reward is great enough, the Exalt is extremely expendable, with little risk to the Primordial's own self.

I think using solars in such an attack has some more downfalls, too. I am not sure if the US would let you do that and not just flood his chosen with visions, or a liondog or other spirits associated with the US might trigger a whole lot of visions, too.

 

[Vanman]

I think using solars in such an attack has some more downfalls, too. I am not sure if the US would let you do that and not just flood his chosen with visions, or a liondog or other spirits associated with the US might trigger a whole lot of visions, too.

I was under the impression that, once a person is Exalted, he or she is free to do as he or she wishes. If not, then why is Darktide working for the Deathlord? Does the US interfere? It would seem to me that he's too busy playing the Games of Divinity. And then there's that whole free will thing.


And what if the Solar isn't in charge of all of his faculties? What if he's addicted to - say - a dreamstone of the Games of Divinity? Sure, the US and his minions could send lots of visions, but would they hold any weight when compared to the Solar's next fix? I believe the Sidereals book says that addiction to the dreamstone of the Games will make most people, Exalted or not, do most anything for a fix. Then it might be a different story....

 

[Persell]

I think if some solars are going to attack heaven by themselves the US will take a few moments to bitchslap them...

 

[Flagg]

If not, then why is Darktide working for the Deathlord?

I don't think we've ever been given clues as to why Darktide works for a Deathlord. I'm sure he has a reason, but it could be as simple as the price was right. Solars don't necessarily have to be good guys.


-S

 

[Vanman]

If not, then why is Darktide working for the Deathlord?

I don't think we've ever been given clues as to why Darktide works for a Deathlord. I'm sure he has a reason, but it could be as simple as the price was right. Solars don't necessarily have to be good guys.


-S

I know they don't have to be good guys. Which was my point. Safim said that the US might interfere with a Solar who might want to act against Heaven. I don't think that's the case, and used Darktide as an example of a Solar working for the enemies of Heaven. That's all.

 

[Flagg]

Gotcha.


Sometimes I don't read as closely as I could, first thing in the morning


-S

 

[Vanman]

Gotcha.
Sometimes I don't read as closely as I could, first thing in the morning


-S

Who does?


:-)

 

[Kajata]

There's a difference between working with a Deathlord and ATTACKING HEAVEN.  I guess the UC is saying "well... SURE... I'd like to go and tell him not to do that but it's my move an' all..."  but if Darktide tries to pull something in Heaven I think the UC would act, either himself or through a powerful intermediary, for 2 reasons really.


1) It's not like he really has to go anywhere.  If Darktide was attacking Heaven he just has to tell the nearest couple of Celestial Lions "go maul that dude"


2) It's closer to home.  ATM, Darktide is just doing "something sneaky and nasty all the way over there".  When he's knocking on the gates of heaven with a battering ram, the UC might take that irritating pounding noise that's interrupting his turn at the games a bit more seriously.

 

[Flagg]

It's also entirely possible that Darktide has an ulterior, and ultimately benevolent motive. Doubtful, but possible.


-S