The last scene from MoEP:Sidereals

[Jimborg]

note: This proably fits under spoilers of some sort, so take that into consideration


Here we see Tepet "Roseblack" Evaja (in a war strider) facing off against an unknown number of demons. Some distance away, Chejop Kejak and an unidentified Earth Aspect (Kejak said he was from House Memmon, but I couldn't find any references to him) argue briefly about the validity of Kejak's strategy. Evaja calls out the 'Demon Queen' of the force leading the demons. A woman appears in response, their brief exchange led me to believe that this was an Akuma-ized Dragon Blooded, as both of them recognized the other, followed by the Akuma to sic the Ebon Dragon (Who has someone gained the ability to leave Malfeas) on Evaja, which causes her to wake up from turns out to be a Sidreal induced vision of her likely death by a nearby Chosen of Endings.


Am I the only one confused here?


1. Why are demons (a force generally considered to be 'Beyond Fate')showing up in a vision that was caused by a Sidereal charm?


2. Who was Chejop Kejak talking to?


3. What was Chejop Kejak planning here?


4. Who was this Akuma woman who was leading the assault? She seemed to know Evaja and Evaja recognized her saying, "you're dead!?".


5. How had the Ebon Dragon gained the ability to leave Malfeas? I thought only their sub-souls could leave Malfeas, while the Yozis themselves where bound there.

 

[Sherwood]

The impression that I got was that the woman Roseblack was talking to was the Empress herself. It has been said in various books that the Ebon Dragon is busy wooing his new bride-to-be, with hints that the Empress possibly made some deals with him to gain access to the Sword of Creation, and now it's time to pay up. So, the deal is struck to get her in, extend her life, at the cost of becoming his bride and releasing him to Creation once more.


As for the rest, I don't know. 8)

 

[skafte]

It is believed that the Dragon-Blooded Kejak is talking with is Mnemon herself wearing a Incomparable Body Arsenal Celestial Circle spell.


The reason why the vision can show demons, could be that the charm (or whatever is used) only triggers the vision, not guiding it. So although Sidereals and the Loom can't see most demons, a normal person can see them, and then the vision will show them too. But that is just far out reasoning from my side

 

[wordman]

1. Why are demons (a force generally considered to be 'Beyond Fate')showing up in a vision that was caused by a Sidereal charm?

Because the charm is cast on the Roseblack, who is inside fate. It's a vision of her death, which happens to involve getting eaten by a Primordial. (Note also that while Roseblack sees this vision, the Sidereal who caused it does not.)

2. Who was Chejop Kejak talking to?

Mnemon, daughter of the Empress and founder of House Mnemon. You know this because he says her name.

3. What was Chejop Kejak planning here?

The endgame of the disappearance of the Empress. It's a safe bet that Kejak messes this up royally. He probably didn't forsee the Ebon Dragon (who is outside Fate) showing up. This is semi-implied by his assurance that the notion of Roseblack's impending death is "absurd", but then she gets eaten by a Primordial. However, he might have meant that the "and all of us with her" was the absurd part.

4. Who was this Akuma woman who was leading the assault? She seemed to know Evaja and Evaja recognized her saying, "you're dead!?".

That is the Scarlet Empress. As was mentioned, it's been hinted since the beginning that she made a bargain with the Ebon Dragon to gain control of the Sword of Creation, and now it's payback. The history mentions her uncovering something that led her to lead a force to claim the Sword. That something was, in all likelihood, a copy of the Broken-Winged Crane.

5. How had the Ebon Dragon gained the ability to leave Malfeas? I thought only their sub-souls could leave Malfeas, while the Yozis themselves where bound there

Not explained; however, remember that the Yozis are bound in Malfeas mostly for the simple reason that they agreed to be. Ebon Dragon violates an oath to come back, but so what? Who's going to argue? Also, you could interpret the Roseblacks "Come forward, demon queen!" to be, in essence, an exalt giving permission to enter Creation.

 

[Flagg]

5. How had the Ebon Dragon gained the ability to leave Malfeas? I thought only their sub-souls could leave Malfeas, while the Yozis themselves where bound there

Not explained; however, remember that the Yozis are bound in Malfeas mostly for the simple reason that they agreed to be. Ebon Dragon violates an oath to come back, but so what? Who's going to argue? Also, you could interpret the Roseblacks "Come forward, demon queen!" to be, in essence, an exalt giving permission to enter Creation.

I'm pretty sure the Yozi can't enter Creation of their own volition. It's not a simple matter of consent. They can, however, possess agents in Creation, briefly, and they can be summoned by the Unconquered Sun, so perhaps there is another yet unmentioned possibility.

 

[Arthur]

And there are non-mentioned deus ex machina devices that can be used in specific games or in the meta-plot. There is no absolute list of everything that can free a Yozi.

 

[wordman]

Canonical line on this, insofar as there is one, comes from the core book (pg. 23): "they were forced to swear powerful oaths on their very names, which banished them Elsewhere and imprisoned them within the body of their general, Malfeas."


It's not entirely clear what enforces such oaths. To break the oath, do they have to sacrifice their name? If they change their "true name", does the oath still bind them? How do you enforce an oath on something as powerful as a Yozi? If the Yozi decides to break this oath, what do you use to punish him? Harsh language?


My personal take is that the oaths are just a smokescreen. Yozi's stay away because they choose to. Possibly, there is some fear/peer pressure from the other Yozis as well. Why do they do this? Why do they do anything?

 

[Arthur]

I think it'd work more or less like it does with the Fair Folk. They just can't break it.

 

[Flagg]

My personal take is that the oaths are just a smokescreen. Yozi's stay away because they choose to. Possibly, there is some fear/peer pressure from the other Yozis as well. Why do they do this? Why do they do anything?

The various texts imply that the Yozi are seething with rage and a desire to re-take Creation, and they have appointed the Ebon Dragon with the task of figuring out a way to escape. Malfeas is constantly referred to as a prison.


You can decide that they're kept in Malfeas solely by their own desire and can freely leave any time they wish, if you think that makes for a more interesting setting. The text doesn't support you.

 

[cyl]

The oaths were made to bind their lower souls into servitude.


They were cast away to Malfeas (note that even if Malfeas was closing in on her, SWLIHN did break an orb and unleashed hell on Creation)... The exalts break them and remade them but they never pledged to anything else than serving the exalts when summoned, not leave Creation forever.


Malfeas was made for this purpose.

 

[wordman]

You can decide that they're kept in Malfeas solely by their own desire and can freely leave any time they wish, if you think that makes for a more interesting setting. The text doesn't support you.

Like I said: "my personal take".


In your own opinion, what is actually enforcing these oaths? Is it just a matter of "a Primordial swore and he can never go back on his word"? Or something like "the word of a Primordial is stronger than the Primordial himself"?


I guess maybe its supposed to be a definitive "yes" to the question "can an omnipotent being create a binding so strong that he himself cannot break it?".

 

[Jukashi]

I think it's to do with the whole nature of primordials as beings who define reality. Everything that's real is real because a primordial thought it up; even the fair folk only have any reality because the creation of reality defined them as its opposite. Tt's no great feat to think that the primordials, themselves, only exist because they think of themselves as existing. In order to think of themselves as existing, they need to be able to think of themselves and to do that they need a concept of self and identity, i.e. a name. So they are their name because they think of themselves with their name, and that thought defines their reality.


Thus, when they "swore an oath on their name", it was more like they were rewriting reality so that if your name/reality happens to be, for example, Jonesy Malloy, then you are also by definition trapped in Malfeas, in the same way that if you are a circle your circumference is precisely pi times larger than your diameter, by definition, and you can't do otherwise without not being a circle anymore. So now they can't leave and still be themselves, because if they did change their name they'd change, too; their old self would stop and something would take its place. And isn't that, itself, more like death than escape?


Of course, they could rewrite reality again so they can get loose, but they probably swore not to do that, either. So the key to their cage is outside it.

 

[Skari-dono]

I think it is awfully accurate for a prophatic dream. I mean, I can't for the life of me find out what kind of Charm (if that's what it is) is being used to make her see her fate, but is it really supposed to show how a character is most likely to die step by step? And if it is this accurate, wouldn't said character just avoid it completely? Now that she knows, isn't it the most likely outcome that it will not go down this way?


So, since I'm not all that versed in the Sidereal Charm list, could anyone point into the direction of the Charm that was used so I can read it? I want to make sure if it is a concrete vision of the future, a vague prophetic dream where one thing could mean something else, or if the Charm is very vague regarding that. Or perhaps it wasn't even a Charm. I'm completely blank.

 

[wordman]

So' date=' since I'm not all that versed in the Sidereal Charm list, could anyone point into the direction of the Charm that was used so I can read it?[/quote']The cynical answer is that it was probably Fervent Night Phantasm (Scroll of the Monk, pg. 140), making it not a prophesy at all, but an implant.

So now they can't leave and still be themselves, because if they did change their name they'd change, too; their old self would stop and something would take its place. And isn't that, itself, more like death than escape?

Interesting. What happens then, if you turn into a lesser version of yourself? If, oh I dunno, say you're made of different component souls and one or more of the major ones gets permanently destroyed. Does this qualify as "their old self would stop and something would take its place"?

 

[Flagg]

So' date=' since I'm not all that versed in the Sidereal Charm list, could anyone point into the direction of the Charm that was used so I can read it?[/quote']The cynical answer is that it was probably Fervent Night Phantasm (Scroll of the Monk, pg. 140), making it not a prophesy at all, but an implant.

The rain-on-wordman's-parade answer is that it was almost definitely Conclusive Wisdom (MoEP: Sidereals, p175), making it a real prophecy.

 

[wordman]

The rain-on-wordman's-parade answer

Aw. I never have any fun.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Unless they change canon from 1st ed to 2nd ed. The Ebon Dragon literally can't succeed is his appointed mission. The Yozi's don't know this however.


Hopefully, we'll get some more insight into this when MoEP:Infernals comes out.


That book is going to rock.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

The impression that I got was that the woman Roseblack was talking to was the Empress herself. It has been said in various books that the Ebon Dragon is busy wooing his new bride-to-be, with hints that the Empress possibly made some deals with him to gain access to the Sword of Creation, and now it's time to pay up. So, the deal is struck to get her in, extend her life, at the cost of becoming his bride and releasing him to Creation once more.
As for the rest, I don't know. 8)

Ok, bolded part, WTF? How did I miss that? Which book?!?!

 

[Kyeudo]

Ok, bolded part, WTF? How did I miss that? Which book?!?!

Its part of the metaplot, not actual canon. It's hidden in references and in the comics between chapters across several books.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Right. I should reread those comics.

 

[Mr. S]

Unless they change canon from 1st ed to 2nd ed. The Ebon Dragon literally can't succeed is his appointed mission. The Yozi's don't know this however.

How's that? I must have missed/forgotten something.

 

[wordman]

Which book?!?!

The gist of the idea came mostly from the 1E Dragon Blooded book, but it's all basically hints. Throughout canon, these include:

• When the Empress decides to mutiny in order to find the Sword of Creation, she does so after locating First Age knowledge. There are several versions of this story in canon that at slightly different. One of them, for example, says the key is in "several tattered books and an ancient map". Given a couple of the other hints, many suspect that one of these books is the Broken-Winged Crane.
  
• All of the versions of this story go out of their way to avoid naming "the officer" that becomes the Scarlet Empress. Similar to Abyssals, its considered that she had to sacrifice her name to become an Infernal, and thus it got erased from history.
  
• The story of Mnemon interrogating a demon towards the end of the 1E DB book is more clear than most about the involvement of the Ebon Dragon.

There are other bits around. Singly, they don't amount to much, but they start to add up.


There are, however, some other choices

 

[Quchu]

I always figured that Ebon Dragon's marriage to the Scarlet Empress was what redefined his name. He was once just Ebon Dragon, the Guy Responsible for a Lot of Naughty Things in Creation, but now he's Ebon Dragon, the Guy Responsible for a Lot of Naughty Things in Creation and the Scarlet Empress' Hubby. Furthermore, perhaps the Primordials defined the concept of marriage to include physical closeness or something like that. So, for Ebon Dragon to be married to the Scarlet Empress, who is in Creation, then he must be in Creation also.


This is the only explanation I could come up with for why a being as transcendent as the Ebon Dragon would marry something.

 

[Mempo]

I always figured that Ebon Dragon's marriage to the Scarlet Empress was what redefined his name. He was once just Ebon Dragon, the Guy Responsible for a Lot of Naughty Things in Creation, but now he's Ebon Dragon, the Guy Responsible for a Lot of Naughty Things in Creation and the Scarlet Empress' Hubby. Furthermore, perhaps the Primordials defined the concept of marriage to include physical closeness or something like that. So, for Ebon Dragon to be married to the Scarlet Empress, who is in Creation, then he must be in Creation also.
This is the only explanation I could come up with for why a being as transcendent as the Ebon Dragon would marry something.

..Somehow, I'm getting the mental image of the Ebon Dragon freeing himself from Malfeas by scribbling "Mrs. Scarlet Empress " 1000 times in his school notebooks.


*gigglefits*


This probably means I read too much Manga.

 

[strawberryleaves]

...Somehow, I'm getting the mental image of the Ebon Dragon freeing himself from Malfeas by scribbling "Mrs. Scarlet Empress " 1000 times in his school notebooks.
*gigglefits*


This probably means I read too much Manga.

Nah.


Now, if you imagined him having a nosebleed after thinking about the Scarlet Empress... :mrgreen: