Viewpoint The Evolution of Roleplay

[White Masquerade]

Just a random thought while browsing the site and reading a few topics after a hiatus. The poll question is pretty simple: do you think how roleplays are (or role playing in general) is fine or do you think it needs to change/evolve in some way.

A few thoughts I want to put out there while you vote or post your own comments about this. And if someone put something changes your mind, you are free to change your vote in the poll at any time.

1. Immersive video games like Fortnite and interactive social media like TikTok. People could already spend a long time online before games and social media like this came around, but I know people who can play an MMO like Fortnite or scroll in social media like TikTok for a whole day straight.

I get it, it’s fun. Which is exactly why I mention it. Can role playing right now compete with that? My personal opinion is no. Unless you are a hardcore writer/reader, RP will lose out every single time.

2. The levels of work involved. I’m not sure if It’s just me, but at least in the U.S. where I live, people seem to…not like putting in too much effort. It’s a strange shift I’ve noticed recently. They’d rather prefer getting served, than to do the serving.

I mention this to ask if posting and contributing to a cohesive story might be tiring for a lot of people with this mindset. So maybe Roleplays need to move from stories where a lot of people participate, to quests where there is 1 writer and people just sit back and vote? Which is connected to a third point.

3. We just like to be entertained. There are so many movies and TV shows on Netflix, YouTube, Disney+, Hulu, etc, what’s the reason to create anything ourselves? There is sooooo much entertainment out there right now to consume, we find no reason make something else like RPs.

So considering these few things I mentioned and what you might already be thinking, does roleplay need to change to keep up with current times? And if so, how? And if not, why? (I’d really like to know!)

Since I’m on the side of roleplay needing to evolve, a few ideas might be to include custom art of characters participating in the RP. Maybe music for certain posts to set the atmosphere or setting? Possible audio files that narrate a post for readers instead of them just reading it? I’ve also thought dice was a good way to get participants interested in an RP because when it works, the game element is very fun- the only problem is how to make it simple and easy.

I believe writing is still extremely fun, I just feel it needs to change in some ways to be more engaging. Let me know your thoughts.

Edit: Added in part about dice in roleplays.

 

[Idea]

I don't think roleplaying - not even roleplaying in a writing format specifically - is dying any time soon. For one thing in a sense roleplaying is as old as humanity itself, as when children play pretend and various other games that involve assuming a role they are roleplaying. I don't think roleplaying as adults is quite as old, but neither is having a large amount of free time that one can afford to spend on entertainment.

I know that may sound like a cop-out, but I think it speaks to a fundamental truth about roleplaying, that whatever the reasons people do them they aren't specific to the particular circumstances of our time. The medium might change - forums may eventually disappear altogether - but I think you will always have people who enjoy roleplaying. Similar things go for writing. There are people who enjoy writing, and even people like myself who enjoy writing in formats and ways that just aren't facilitated by the approach or form of things like chat platforms, nor in-game. I've tried both, and more. There are differences, and so long as tastes lead to the particular preference that is currently satisfied by roleplaying in forums, roleplaying by writing will not disappear. It may take effort - but many people like effort. They like the feeling that they are producing something with their own hands or brains or whatever else that may be.

In my opinion, there is a fundamental mistake in your proposition. You assert various kinds of people to whom roleplay (in this format) won't appeal, some of which it maybe appealed once upon time (although I doubt that's the case for some 80% or more or them). However, even if the assertion that the number of people to whom written format RP may appeal to will reduce is absolutely 100% correct this does not imply such a reduction would be so drastic as to seriously impact roleplay as a hobby, much less to the point of extinction. To put it in a slight exaggerated sense, but one I feel makes my point: Roleplay does not need to capture people who don't like roleplaying (as in written roleplaying).

Do you like games more? Go play your games. Do you like scrolling through TikTok all day? Have fun. I myself enjoy plenty of other things besides roleplaying. But how many group roleplays have you seen die while people take off for two weeks because they're playing some game that came out recently (or they found out about recently)? How many roleplays of either kind have you seen die or things go sour because some players couldn't be bothered to read each other's posts or persistently didn't want to write ever? Short of an extremely insular community with very particular characteristics some amount of that is inevitable, but to try to catch an audience whose reason for not roleplaying is "I'd rather scroll on TikTok all day" or "writing takes effort and I'd rather sit back and just watch something" is merely inviting an increase in that kind of incident. In an effort to help roleplaying it'd make both the experience of those who want to roleplay and those merely captured by the extra bells and whistles worse, because the latter group would prefer to not be roleplaying and the former would prefer a roleplay that lives and moves.

As a small caveat, I don't think the above are the main reasons roleplay tend to die, with IRL complications and problems such as anxiety or depression taking the top spot in creating ghosting (or so I believe), but I do believe that is the effect of trying to capture an audience that isn't even half-heartedly invested: You fail and you might even lose some of that which is actually invested.

I think roleplay may grow smaller, but it CAN compete with video games, social media, video, etc... But it competes with them when it comes to an audience who wants roleplay for what it is. Those who like roleplaying in the written format, and I mean who those like it specifically because it is in a written format and specifically because it is roleplaying, will continue to adhere to it. Just by virtue of being entertainment does not mean those other things provide what roleplay does and therefore people seek in it, and so long as that's true some number of people will stay in roleplay. And I don't think that's going to stop being true any time soon.

I mention this to ask if posting and contributing to a cohesive story might be tiring for a lot of people with this mindset. So maybe Roleplays need to move from stories where a lot of people participate, to quests where there is 1 writer and people just sit back and vote? Which is connected to a third point.

That already exists, quest RPs, and I also thoughts lots of people would like for the exact reason that it let readers have to use minimal effort, just read, vote and maybe comment a bit. There are some amazingly written ones too, and at least one I know of with all the extra stuff like custom art, music and voice in certain posts. In practice few people stuck around, and even those (myself included) would sometimes just not respond for a while due to one reason or another. I think this, much like the cases of people just dropping the RP entirely before, is another case of an audience mismatch: A lot of people who came to write just couldn't get invested enough to keep reading with so little input. And others who were writing may have been discouraged by the lack of input/feedback or the greater than usual amount of writing. Don't get me wrong, I do think quest RPs have potential, but I do think they are widely known enough yet to catch the right audience. At the same time, I do think they NEED the right people for them to work, especially on the voters side.

So considering these few things I mentioned and what you might already be thinking, does roleplay need to change to keep up with current times? And if so, how? And if not, why? (I’d really like to know!)

So I do I think roleplaying needs to "evolve"? No. Do I think it should "evolve"? Also no.

I do think it can and it will. Not drastically mind you - at least not while freely available tools improve considerably. Right now even though a lot of AI models are free they can involve models that need further training or work or downloads that would kill my PC from the volume unless I purged half the stuff in it, plus they often still can't compete with the innovation and quality of proper art. But perhaps if such technology improves and becomes as available as grabbing images off the internet is now (the morality of either one being something I'm not intending to discuss here, I'm merely talking about ease and availability) then you will see more roleplays with more custom image work. Things entering public domain could give you more music, new programs could appear that would make programming language more intuitive for your average roleplayer and maybe give you tips on how to design the look of those codes. But the use of those things then as opposed to now is not a question of keeping up with the times, just one of economics, cost and benefit. Right now the effort, cost and/or risk of incorporating such things as custom art, music etc... Is higher than what most roleplays are willing to spend. But if they become much easier, then the benefit may more frequently outweight those costs. It's not necessity, just convenience, and it's not trying to appeal to an external audience that wouldn't already be invested in RP, at least not actively so.

In conclusion: I don't believe RP needs to "evolve" in the interest of capturing an audience not interested in it. So long as RP in this format remains worthwhile it will remain around. If such a time comes when it isn't - which barring a possible change of the medium of forums, I don't think will happen any time soon - then it wouldn't be worth keeping anyway.

 

[Daisie]

I'm not totally sure I'm following, here, but I'll do my best to respond, nonetheless.

The thing is that RP isn't just one set... thing, really. All that seems to constitute RP is collaborative storytelling that is (most of the time) turn-based. RpN, itself, has a LOT of types of RP, and that's the tip of the iceberg, really. A lot of the "changes" you mentioned are things that are for, a lot of people, totally normal.

1. Immersive video games like Fortnite and interactive social media like TikTok. People could already spend a long time online before games and social media like this came around, but I know people who can play an MMO like Fortnite or scroll in social media like TikTok for a whole day straight.

I get it, it’s fun. Which is exactly why I mention it. Can role playing right now compete with that? My personal opinion is no. Unless you are a hardcore writer/reader, RP will lose out every single time.

The thing is, many people USE social media and/or video games to get into RP. Gobs and gobs of people start out RPing in places that aren't meant for it. Old video games on game consoles, Facebook comments, AOL, Kik, Skype, Discord, you name it.

RP is something people like to do regardless of the platform, so naturally you're going to be able to find it just about anywhere. I think you'll find that social media actually assists quite a lot in RP.

2. The levels of work involved. I’m not sure if It’s just me, but at least in the U.S. where I live, people seem to…not like putting in too much effort. It’s a strange shift I’ve noticed recently. They’d rather prefer getting served, than to do the serving.

I mention this to ask if posting and contributing to a cohesive story might be tiring for a lot of people with this mindset. So maybe Roleplays need to move from stories where a lot of people participate, to quests where there is 1 writer and people just sit back and vote? Which is connected to a third point.

Also a hard disagree. Because the audience of RP is so friggin' diverse, there have always been people who are willing to put in more work, and people who are willing to put in less. When I started out on RpN, 90% of my RPs wound up being low-effort, one-liner replies in the statuses. RP has never solely been something that's high-effort. Like most hobbies, you put in just as much effort as you want to.

We also already have that voting system here on RpN! They're called quest RPs! They're fun. The quest RP section is also one of the lesser active sections of the site, so no it's not really in high demand. If people were naturally leaning towards that kind of content, it would have a boost in popularity.

3. We just like to be entertained. There are so many movies and TV shows on Netflix, YouTube, Disney+, Hulu, etc, what’s the reason to create anything ourselves? There is sooooo much entertainment out there right now to consume, we find no reason make something else like RPs.

The thing is, there has NEVER been a reason to create. Movies and TV shows are not involved with this process at all. Humanity has never had, nor needed, a reason to use our imagination, we just do. You could say the same thing about nature vs art - why create art for ourselves when nature is already so beautiful? The answer is just that we create because we want to create. RpN just happens to be one of many platforms to do it on.

In fact, the internet just happens to be one of the many platforms to do it on. RP is still very much alive and kicking outside of text-based RP. Table-top RPing is still very much popular, and so is LARP. Heck, you could qualify little kids running around with cardboard swords on valiant quests as roleplay.

Roleplay and storytelling as a whole isn't something that really ever dies. There are an innumerable amount of facets to RP, and while THOSE may change naturally over time, RP itself isn't something that needs to change. It's just something we do.

 

[White Masquerade]

Idea
Great answer and interesting perspective you’ve got there. I see what you mean with only those who are interested in the format would stay. That it’d be a waste to attract those who’ll probably end up flaky because they want to be doing something else anyway.

Good point with the cost of more innovative tools too.

Then I pose a follow-up question to you! Do you believe peoples’ minds can be changed? If you are a math teacher in a class full of students that hate it (they’d rather be in Physical Education or Art Class), would you simply not teach them? Because they’d rather be in another class anyway? Would it not be worth it to see if even some of the kids might end up liking math if you tried to make it fun?

Daisie
Good points. Like Idea says too, quests should be super popular by they are not.

As to roleplaying as a whole, I can’t speak to what you say. I’m not sure personally how many people roleplay in its different formats, but the people I’ve seen over different ages, don’t seem to do it.

Kids are on their devices playing games. Teens are on their devices playing games and on social media. Young adults are on their devices on social media. Adults are the only ones I’ve seen not on devices, but they’re doing things in the real world like traveling, etc.

I won’t say it doesn’t exist, but I just don’t see the imagination/creation you suggest even on these devices. There could be a strong LARP and tabletop community but it doesn’t sound widespread?

 

[Idea]

If you are a math teacher in a class full of students that hate it (they’d rather be in Physical Education or Art Class), would you simply not teach them? Because they’d rather be in another class anyway? Would it not be worth it to see if even some of the kids might end up liking math if you tried to make it fun?

There's several things to point out there that make this comparison a little misaligned:

One the kids are not in class to enjoy themselves, they are there because there is important information for them to learn. Roleplay is a hobby and like everything created for enjoyment it should exist to the extent and in the form that is fit for that purpose. Classes, on the other hand, should be in such a format as to best impart that knowledge. To some extent this will include changing things to be able to retain the attention of students, but the point isn't the attention it's the learning, and as such you shouldn't sacrifice learning for attention. Naturally, both of these will have certain reasonable boundaries, all of which no doubt would be individually debatable and quite extensive debates at that, but as a rule of thumb things should be made to best serve their function.

Second, I think it's wrong to treat an audience largely composed of adults (some percentage of teenagers mixed in as well, admittedly) the same way you'd treat an audience of children. There's a reason why children are not allowed to do things like drive, smoke and drink, and physical development is only a part of it. But I fundamentally disagree with the notion that someone should dictate "what's good for them" the way we do to children, disregarding or trying to manipulate their decisions away from where they would clearly point. The boundaries and specifics here would be a whole other rabbit whole again, and to be clear I'm not accusing you or anyone else who shares your opinion about roleplay of having this kind of perspective. However, I do think there is an implication if one agrees that we shouldn't generally be trying to dictate to people what they should or shouldn't like - that if they should choose to enjoy something, we let them, and if don't enjoy it we don't try to pressure them into it. We let them be the arbiters of what's good for them. And although we may make younger children attend classes irrespective of their wishes, highschool (at least where I'm from) does start giving people some choice in what subjects they'd like to pursue, and (though it depends from teacher to teacher) in college you are at least supposed to be able to not only pick what you'd like to learn but to judge for yourself whether to come to class at all (other than during tests of course).

To answer your hypothetical: Yes, I would teach them, and maybe try to encourage them to like it. Because they are kids and because I think that's a good way to try to teach them. I would try to meet their interests and show them the utility of what they are learning. I would try to simplify the problems and adjust them to their way of thinking so as to make it easier for them to process what I already know, so they may know as well. Because they are children. Because I would be their teacher - not their fellow student, nor the guy standing at the gate who gave them directions and is mostly there to make sure people are behaving and not entering or leaving the premises.

Then I pose a follow-up question to you! Do you believe peoples’ minds can be changed?

So, with that whole preamble, I am ready to answer your actual question. I do believe people's minds can be changed, indeed such a belief is one of the reasons why I can be so argumentative at times. That being said, I don't think they always should, nor should the effort always be spent to make it so. Sure, maybe the person would enjoy roleplaying, but they are enjoying themselves already. Those who have a special reason to try roleplaying will do so, whether invited by friends because those friends wanted to do it with them, or because they felt they weren't enjoying those other things they were doing and decided to try something new. I can say that I myself didn't even know what roleplaying was when I found my first roleplay site, I was just looking for somewhere to write about a certain fandom and when I found the site I was awed by the rules and structure of it. To those who do come from those other places to experiment with roleplaying they should be welcomed with open arms, helped onto their feet and to take a chance on this great hobby. If they leave because it's not for them, it's a shame, but I hope they will enjoy themselves wherever they go. And if they didn't come because they just liked those other things more I also hope they are having fun. Let everyone have their space, try things out, and things be enjoyed the best way those who do can. But to try to dress up roleplay as what it isn't to try to appeal to a group that doesn't want to come while hassling people already here enjoying the hobby? What good would do that actually do?

 

[White Masquerade]

There's several things to point out there that make this comparison a little misaligned:

One the kids are not in class to enjoy themselves, they are there because there is important information for them to learn. Roleplay is a hobby and like everything created for enjoyment it should exist to the extent and in the form that is fit for that purpose. Classes, on the other hand, should be in such a format as to best impart that knowledge. To some extent this will include changing things to be able to retain the attention of students, but the point isn't the attention it's the learning, and as such you shouldn't sacrifice learning for attention. Naturally, both of these will have certain reasonable boundaries, all of which no doubt would be individually debatable and quite extensive debates at that, but as a rule of thumb things should be made to best serve their function.

Second, I think it's wrong to treat an audience largely composed of adults (some percentage of teenagers mixed in as well, admittedly) the same way you'd treat an audience of children. There's a reason why children are not allowed to do things like drive, smoke and drink, and physical development is only a part of it. But I fundamentally disagree with the notion that someone should dictate "what's good for them" the way we do to children, disregarding or trying to manipulate their decisions away from where they would clearly point. The boundaries and specifics here would be a whole other rabbit whole again, and to be clear I'm not accusing you or anyone else who shares your opinion about roleplay of having this kind of perspective. However, I do think there is an implication if one agrees that we shouldn't generally be trying to dictate to people what they should or shouldn't like - that if they should choose to enjoy something, we let them, and if don't enjoy it we don't try to pressure them into it. We let them be the arbiters of what's good for them. And although we may make younger children attend classes irrespective of their wishes, highschool (at least where I'm from) does start giving people some choice in what subjects they'd like to pursue, and (though it depends from teacher to teacher) in college you are at least supposed to be able to not only pick what you'd like to learn but to judge for yourself whether to come to class at all (other than during tests of course).

To answer your hypothetical: Yes, I would teach them, and maybe try to encourage them to like it. Because they are kids and because I think that's a good way to try to teach them. I would try to meet their interests and show them the utility of what they are learning. I would try to simplify the problems and adjust them to their way of thinking so as to make it easier for them to process what I already know, so they may know as well. Because they are children. Because I would be their teacher - not their fellow student, nor the guy standing at the gate who gave them directions and is mostly there to make sure people are behaving and not entering or leaving the premises.




So, with that whole preamble, I am ready to answer your actual question. I do believe people's minds can be changed, indeed such a belief is one of the reasons why I can be so argumentative at times. That being said, I don't think they always should, nor should the effort always be spent to make it so. Sure, maybe the person would enjoy roleplaying, but they are enjoying themselves already. Those who have a special reason to try roleplaying will do so, whether invited by friends because those friends wanted to do it with them, or because they felt they weren't enjoying those other things they were doing and decided to try something new. I can say that I myself didn't even know what roleplaying was when I found my first roleplay site, I was just looking for somewhere to write about a certain fandom and when I found the site I was awed by the rules and structure of it. To those who do come from those other places to experiment with roleplaying they should be welcomed with open arms, helped onto their feet and to take a chance on this great hobby. If they leave because it's not for them, it's a shame, but I hope they will enjoy themselves wherever they go. And if they didn't come because they just liked those other things more I also hope they are having fun. Let everyone have their space, try things out, and things be enjoyed the best way those who do can. But to try to dress up roleplay as what it isn't to try to appeal to a group that doesn't want to come while hassling people already here enjoying the hobby? What good would do that actually do?

Good comments. I see where you're coming from completely, as well as where we divide. It seems you're on the side of letting roleplay, in this case, take its natural course. If it needs or can evolve into something else, it will. If it can't or shouldn't, then it won't. It will react according to what the people in it want. I understand and respect that perspective 100%.

I'm on the side of interventions and taking active approaches to change what people want. This makes me think of a quote from the Apple guy Steve Jobs that's always stuck with me. I'll share it with you.

“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.”​

And I believe it. There was nothing like the iPhone before it and frankly, nobody asked for something like it. When Apple made it, people laughed at it but look now, it's everywhere. All the really revolutionary things that people love and use without a second thought, weren't asked for and didn't come about until someone just tried it. Then people realized it was great and adopted it.

That's what I'm trying to see if the format needs. That re-invention or improvement almost everybody isn't expecting, imagining, or even asking for. So with that said, do you still feel that the state of things is perfectly fine or even preferred? That's my final question to you I promise.

 

[Idea]

Good comments. I see where you're coming from completely, as well as where we divide. It seems you're on the side of letting roleplay, in this case, take its natural course. If it needs or can evolve into something else, it will. If it can't or shouldn't, then it won't. It will react according to what the people in it want. I understand and respect that perspective 100%.

I'm on the side of interventions and taking active approaches to change what people want. This makes me think of a quote from the Apple guy Steve Jobs that's always stuck with me. I'll share it with you.


And I believe it. There was nothing like the iPhone before it and frankly, nobody asked for something like it. When Apple made it, people laughed at it but look now, it's everywhere. All the really revolutionary things that people love and use without a second thought, weren't asked for and didn't come about until someone just tried it. Then people realized it was great and adopted it.

I will say this: I think that quote fits well in what I am saying. See, apple and other great inventions didn't come because someone tried to change the behavior of others to fit in with what they thought best. It came because someone decided to try something they thought others might like, and those people saw it, liked, and decided to adopt it.

If we bring this idea to our case, what you have isn't the community as a whole trying to "evolve" RP. It's a handful of RPs trying this new model you're proposing (maybe when the tools I mentioned become a thing) and it becoming popular. You know how some things just go big and start generating copy-cats? The apple scenario of "iphones everywhere" I think in this case would translate into something like that, other people seeing this really popular and successful RP because it gets to enjoy being one of the few with these nice features, and then others starting to try to do the same to capture that.

This approach is still very much in line with what I'm saying - it's still people seeking out to try things on their own and what they like on their own. Like I said, if people want to come give RP a try, even if they ultimately don't end up liking it, I say welcome them with open arms. But trying to change RPs as a whole is different from individual RPs trying something new and it succeeding, thus the rest of the community changing.

Further you didn't need Iphones when they were invented. They are everywhere now, but that wasn't out of a need but out of a benefit they provided greater than the tradeoffs. Likewise my claim is that roleplaying doesn't need to change, not that it doesn't stand to gain anything from changing.

That's what I'm trying to see if the format needs. That re-invention or improvement almost everybody isn't expecting, imagining, or even asking for. So with that said, do you still feel that the state of things is perfectly fine or even preferred? That's my final question to you I promise.

Which I suppose also answers this question. I think the current state of things is fine - not perfectly fine, but fine. There are things that could be improved, but I don't think those would be in the interest of attracting people who aren't interested in what RP is, but rather towards improving RP for the existing community.

Edit: Also, feel free to ask as many questions as you like. I appreciate a good, civil discussion / debate.

 

[Triangles]

Roleplaying has already evolved significantly over the years and is continuously evolving, reflecting changes in technology, platforms, and the preferences of its players.

Originally, my text-based roleplay was limited to forums, chat rooms, and instant messaging services like MSN. These platforms allowed people like me, 15 years ago to create and portray characters through written interactions. The appeal of text-based roleplay was its accessibility, enabling people from around the world to engage in collaborative storytelling. This was groundbreaking to me.

Over time, the popularity of text-based roleplay led to the creation of dedicated websites and forums catering specifically to roleplaying communities. Such as ProBoards, and RPN. These platforms offered structured environments with rules and guidelines to facilitate storytelling and character development.

Simultaneously, tabletop roleplaying games like D&D remained a staple of the roleplaying world. They provided a more structured and interactive experience, with players gathering around a table to use dice, character sheets, and the guidance of a game master to tell immersive stories.

As technology advanced, digital roleplay began to include more than just text. Virtual tabletop platforms like Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds allowed for the integration of maps, character sheets, and visuals into TTRPG sessions, bridging the gap between text-based and in-person experiences.

More recently, the concept of in-person roleplay has evolved significantly. This can be seen in various forms such as LARPing, VR Roleplay, and games like Red Dead Redemption & GTA having thriving communities within them.

 

[White Masquerade]

I will say this: I think that quote fits well in what I am saying. See, apple and other great inventions didn't come because someone tried to change the behavior of others to fit in with what they thought best. It came because someone decided to try something they thought others might like, and those people saw it, liked, and decided to adopt it.

If we bring this idea to our case, what you have isn't the community as a whole trying to "evolve" RP. It's a handful of RPs trying this new model you're proposing (maybe when the tools I mentioned become a thing) and it becoming popular. You know how some things just go big and start generating copy-cats? The apple scenario of "iphones everywhere" I think in this case would translate into something like that, other people seeing this really popular and successful RP because it gets to enjoy being one of the few with these nice features, and then others starting to try to do the same to capture that.

This approach is still very much in line with what I'm saying - it's still people seeking out to try things on their own and what they like on their own. Like I said, if people want to come give RP a try, even if they ultimately don't end up liking it, I say welcome them with open arms. But trying to change RPs as a whole is different from individual RPs trying something new and it succeeding, thus the rest of the community changing.

Further you didn't need Iphones when they were invented. They are everywhere now, but that wasn't out of a need but out of a benefit they provided greater than the tradeoffs. Likewise my claim is that roleplaying doesn't need to change, not that it doesn't stand to gain anything from changing.






Which I suppose also answers this question. I think the current state of things is fine - not perfectly fine, but fine. There are things that could be improved, but I don't think those would be in the interest of attracting people who aren't interested in what RP is, but rather towards improving RP for the existing community.

Edit: Also, feel free to ask as many questions as you like. I appreciate a good, civil discussion / debate.

That's alright, no more questions are needed. You've made many good points to consider on the topic. The poll says opinions are pretty much split on this though, lol. It'd be nice if some people explained their view, but so it goes (it's okay shy people, we're not mad).

I still feel changes to include a broader audience would be worth a shot, but I am certainly content with letting the chips fall where they may and see what comes about on its own.

Triangles
Thank you for taking the time to answer. You are right about RP already evolving through the years. My second question to you is if you see interest in RP dropping or if has it been steady. My opinion isn't that RP hasn't evolved, it's that interest is dropping due to other activities like scrolling TikTok. And because of that drop in interest, more can be done to draw some people back to it.

I believe Idea is saying things will change for RP naturally when it needs to- no need to force anything. Is that pretty much where you lean?

 

[Triangles]

That's alright, no more questions are needed. You've made many good points to consider on the topic. The poll says opinions are pretty much split on this though, lol. It'd be nice if some people explained their view, but so it goes (it's okay shy people, we're not mad).

I still feel changes to include a broader audience would be worth a shot, but I am certainly content with letting the chips fall where they may and see what comes about on its own.

Triangles
Thank you for taking the time to answer. You are right about RP already evolving through the years. My second question to you is if you see interest in RP dropping or if has it been steady. My opinion isn't that RP hasn't evolved, it's that interest is dropping due to other activities like scrolling TikTok. And because of that drop in interest, more can be done to draw some people back to it.

I believe Idea is saying things will change for RP naturally when it needs to- no need to force anything. Is that pretty much where you lean?

I wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the decline of written roleplay, and I believe you've made a compelling argument for the underlying reasons. However, I don't necessarily attribute this shift solely to the availability of other activities.

As someone mentioned earlier in this discussion, the desire to engage in imaginative and pretend play is a personal choice. It's not merely a matter of being on TikTok or not. Many people opt not to participate in roleplay for various reasons, including the preference for other forms of entertainment or their interests lying in different types of games.

Regarding your second question about the trajectory of RP interest, I believe it's a complex blend of both decline and stability. While written roleplay may be experiencing a decline due to the allure of activities like TikTok or other forms of entertainment / roleplay avenues, there remains a dedicated community (Such as RPN) that cherishes the depth and creativity inherent in written roleplay. Thus, it's a nuanced situation.

I concur with Idea's perspective – that RP will naturally evolve when necessary, without the need for forced changes. & I believe we are seeing that with communities like GMOD, ARMA RP, DayZ, FiveM, & RedM.

 

[Shawdios]

Here’s the thing.

I’m on the side of letting the chips fall, but I would enjoy more people trying out Quest RPs.

I tried out being the writer for a quest rp, but people just don’t check out that section of RP nation often and over time you get discouraged.

I RP to write WITH someone, to make and craft a story together that we could chatter away about. I will cling to the written paragraph style roleplaying till I die. If the community moves on and evolves away from it, I’ll still be here for anyone who clings like I do.

I’m an artist, I draw all of my own faceclaims, and sometimes. Sometimes, I draw my RP partner’s characters. But art takes too much time. A photo may be worth a thousand words, but I can write a thousand words faster than I can make an illustration.

Rping is a hobby. Always has been. I put in work to move through the rough patches of RPs, but in the end it is a hobby. I like telling stories, but energy dictates my creativity.

I’m not sure what I meant to convey, my apologies if I’ve gone completely off topic.

I don’t think RPing needs to evolve. The medium will change and shift, but Roleplaying is such a vast spectrum for a descriptor. It’s Playing the Role of a character. I’ve had people think I was talking about BDSM just by saying the word and then I had to scramble to clarify.

 

[White Masquerade]

I wholeheartedly agree with your perspective on the decline of written roleplay, and I believe you've made a compelling argument for the underlying reasons. However, I don't necessarily attribute this shift solely to the availability of other activities.

As someone mentioned earlier in this discussion, the desire to engage in imaginative and pretend play is a personal choice. It's not merely a matter of being on TikTok or not. Many people opt not to participate in roleplay for various reasons, including the preference for other forms of entertainment or their interests lying in different types of games.

Regarding your second question about the trajectory of RP interest, I believe it's a complex blend of both decline and stability. While written roleplay may be experiencing a decline due to the allure of activities like TikTok or other forms of entertainment / roleplay avenues, there remains a dedicated community (Such as RPN) that cherishes the depth and creativity inherent in written roleplay. Thus, it's a nuanced situation.

I concur with Idea's perspective – that RP will naturally evolve when necessary, without the need for forced changes. & I believe we are seeing that with communities like GMOD, ARMA RP, DayZ, FiveM, & RedM.

We’ve got some big brain philosophers hiding in this site, ha. Nice answer. I don’t have a rebuttal to any of that. It leaves me with the feeling that soon there will be “RP bite” videos that people start posting to each other on social media. Eek.

Here’s the thing.

I’m on the side of letting the chips fall, but I would enjoy more people trying out Quest RPs.

I tried out being the writer for a quest rp, but people just don’t check out that section of RP nation often and over time you get discouraged.

I RP to write WITH someone, to make and craft a story together that we could chatter away about. I will cling to the written paragraph style roleplaying till I die. If the community moves on and evolves away from it, I’ll still be here for anyone who clings like I do.

I’m an artist, I draw all of my own faceclaims, and sometimes. Sometimes, I draw my RP partner’s characters. But art takes too much time. A photo may be worth a thousand words, but I can write a thousand words faster than I can make an illustration.

Rping is a hobby. Always has been. I put in work to move through the rough patches of RPs, but in the end it is a hobby. I like telling stories, but energy dictates my creativity.

I’m not sure what I meant to convey, my apologies if I’ve gone completely off topic.

I don’t think RPing needs to evolve. The medium will change and shift, but Roleplaying is such a vast spectrum for a descriptor. It’s Playing the Role of a character. I’ve had people think I was talking about BDSM just by saying the word and then I had to scramble to clarify.

Your answer was good and clear. I do also prefer the written format and will stick to it for a while also. At least until virtual reality starts getting really good lol.

As for quests, I agree 100%. They seem like a really cool way to conduct a written RP with room for cool additions, but I’ve noticed the writing just stops abruptly even though people are still voting. Why that happens? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

 

[Shawdios]

As for quests, I agree 100%. They seem like a really cool way to conduct a written RP with room for cool additions, but I’ve noticed the writing just stops abruptly even though people are still voting. Why that happens? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

Motivation of the writer. Writing solo is difficult, and I think that’s partly why Quest Rp isn’t really popular. Because the writer is putting in all of the work and getting little back (for the ones that stick to just voting)

Hopefully though, the In character Interview thread sparks a bunch of new types of Quest RPs in here where you are asking questions

 

[Daisie]

As for quests, I agree 100%. They seem like a really cool way to conduct a written RP with room for cool additions, but I’ve noticed the writing just stops abruptly even though people are still voting. Why that happens? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

Yeahhh it's a lot to keep up with. The dynamic is uneven in that the GM has to write SO MUCH MORE than the participants.

I mean, that's usually the case to some degree anyways, but in quest RP it's basically pushed to the extreme. I tried to do a quest RP a while ago and though it was a blast, it also really cranked the pressure up.

 

[Idea]

It leaves me with the feeling that soon there will be “RP bite” videos that people start posting to each other on social media. Eek.

Though there might be, I would point out that a lot of RP is done by people who remain anonymous. I guess maybe with VR and voice changers it might be possible, but even then I think simple social awkwardness alone would be enough to stop this from happening to a large extent.

As for quests, I agree 100%. They seem like a really cool way to conduct a written RP with room for cool additions, but I’ve noticed the writing just stops abruptly even though people are still voting. Why that happens? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

To be honest, I’ve seen it mostly backwards myself - voting stopping before the writer did and the writer losing motivation as a result. Admittedly though I haven’t been in that many myself, and when I tried running one it was me who stopped (largely due to the time of the year + the greater writing requirements at the time that I didn’t feel O was being able to deliver on time).

 

[Kveykva]

i'm not certain i can provide anything more to the discussion than what's already been discussed by other users, but i'd like to try tossing in my two cents regardless.

3. We just like to be entertained. There are so many movies and TV shows on Netflix, YouTube, Disney+, Hulu, etc, what’s the reason to create anything ourselves? There is sooooo much entertainment out there right now to consume, we find no reason make something else like RPs.

i want to touch on this point a little bit - some people just don't like sitting down to watch movies or tv shows. i certainly don't speak for everybody here, but spending hours binge-watching a series or a movie feels so boring to me. i've had it described as "preferring to interact with your entertainment," and i tend to gravitate towards gaming, drawing writing, or (surprise surprise) roleplaying in some medium. there's tons of series out there for people to enjoy, but there are plenty who would prefer to write fanfiction, create ocs, or draw fanart of said series rather than watch it over and over again.

since i've seen the discussion of quest rps in here as well, i'd like to say the concept of it seems very fun for those of us who enjoy writing too long of posts and worldbuilding for an audience. i would like to take a crack at it some time, but i haven't had the time for any ambitious writing projects lately.

 

[White Masquerade]

Motivation of the writer. Writing solo is difficult, and I think that’s partly why Quest Rp isn’t really popular. Because the writer is putting in all of the work and getting little back (for the ones that stick to just voting)

Hopefully though, the In character Interview thread sparks a bunch of new types of Quest RPs in here where you are asking questions

Ah, I've seen some users write a book as a response in a group RP, haha. I'm surprised they haven't gotten into quests. It seems like a good creative exercise for people who like to write fan fiction and/or full books. I can see how a group player would not find it fun writing by themselves though. It's a shame.

I will check out the in-character questions section. Thanks for the heads up!

Yeahhh it's a lot to keep up with. The dynamic is uneven in that the GM has to write SO MUCH MORE than the participants.

I mean, that's usually the case to some degree anyways, but in quest RP it's basically pushed to the extreme. I tried to do a quest RP a while ago and though it was a blast, it also really cranked the pressure up.

One follow-up question for you. When you weren't stressed, did you enjoy writing up that quest more than participating in a group RP?

To be honest, I’ve seen it mostly backwards myself - voting stopping before the writer did and the writer losing motivation as a result. Admittedly though I haven’t been in that many myself, and when I tried running one it was me who stopped (largely due to the time of the year + the greater writing requirements at the time that I didn’t feel O was being able to deliver on time).

That's interesting. From my quick check, it looks like voters are wondering where the story went for a lot of them lol. Understandable on stopping because of what it'd require. Did you get any feedback though? While you were doing it, did people love the format?

i'm not certain i can provide anything more to the discussion than what's already been discussed by other users, but i'd like to try tossing in my two cents regardless.

i want to touch on this point a little bit - some people just don't like sitting down to watch movies or tv shows. i certainly don't speak for everybody here, but spending hours binge-watching a series or a movie feels so boring to me. i've had it described as "preferring to interact with your entertainment," and i tend to gravitate towards gaming, drawing writing, or (surprise surprise) roleplaying in some medium. there's tons of series out there for people to enjoy, but there are plenty who would prefer to write fanfiction, create ocs, or draw fanart of said series rather than watch it over and over again.

since i've seen the discussion of quest rps in here as well, i'd like to say the concept of it seems very fun for those of us who enjoy writing too long of posts and worldbuilding for an audience. i would like to take a crack at it some time, but i haven't had the time for any ambitious writing projects lately.

It's all good. Thank you for answering. The person I was talking about in my reply to Shawdios was you . I am the same way. I have to be active in my activity, not just sit back and be entertained =/. I dunno if you're active on social media, but I am just curious. Are you a major user of TikTok?

As for quests, definitely give it a try. I may do so in the future. I'm not sure if there are any active ones from this year, so it wouldn't hurt to fill the void.

 

[Daisie]

One follow-up question for you. When you weren't stressed, did you enjoy writing up that quest more than participating in a group RP?

Idk that I enjoyed it MORE...? It's difficult to compare, actually, because it was very different than normal quest RP. And to be honest, I categorize quest RPs and group RPs as totally differently things in my mind. But I did have a blast, even if for different reasons. Hard to say.

Realistic or Modern - Project Anarchy [CLOSED]

WELCOME TO PROJECT ANARCHY (The RP with 3 rules) An amnesiac waking up in the middle of a field or on a beach is a trope used quite often in stories. Many speculate that it's a cop-out move used so that the writer doesn't have to be bothered making a backstory until later, or even at all. It's...

www.rpnation.com

 

[StrixDesmodus]

I feel like there are some changes that need to be made in roleplaying etiquette and attitudes, but not so much in modality.
I feel like too many people are making their rps more exclusive than they need to be whether they mean to or not, and I've had to pass up some ideas that I loved because of these exclusions.

Things I'd like to see become "obsolete"

• Hard minimums for post length. I understand wanting substance to work with, but you can get that without insisting on excess verbosity that people can't always deliver on. "Just don't join my rp" is not a sentence that will help anyone because the fact is that it's can be hard to find ideas that appeal, and it's hard to host an rp at all let alone host one that's original enough or generic enough not to even resemble plagiarism. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, and then getting jabbed by said needle.
• Offsite OOC. Hazards aside, it's an inconvenience to have to log in to two separate sites in order to keep yourself in the loop. I don't understand the appeal whatsoever, and yes, I've tried it.
• Misunderstanding of intellectual property ownership. Nothing like when people try to "copyright" generic things that they obviously did not invent, such as characters who are Irish and terms like "werecreature." I've had people on other sites even ask me if it was ok to make an rp like one I've made despite the rp in question being very generic and very obviously not an original idea of mine. These debacles were mainly on another site, but are worth mentioning.
• Rude intolerance for common beginner mistakes. Whether it's grammar or etiquette, I feel like many people in and out of the roleplaying community have always jumped at the opportunity to berate someone even when things could be worked out more politely.
• The word "roleplay" being treated as synonymous with sexual roleplay. I'm always leery of sites other than this one because most people in the world don't seem to get that roleplay isn't inherently sexual.

 

[Kveykva]

It's all good. Thank you for answering. The person I was talking about in my reply to Shawdios was you . I am the same way. I have to be active in my activity, not just sit back and be entertained =/. I dunno if you're active on social media, but I am just curious. Are you a major user of TikTok?

As for quests, definitely give it a try. I may do so in the future. I'm not sure if there are any active ones from this year, so it wouldn't hurt to fill the void.

watching movies, tv, or youtube is something i generally only do while working on something menial, like washing dishes or doing laundry. that's mostly because if i'm watching something, i want to watch it, and i don't divide my attention well (read: i can't watch something if i'm playing a game or writing). i like to watch things, sure, but i'm not much of a re-watcher. as for social media, i have both twitter and tumblr, but neither see any use. twitter is... twitter (even before it became "x") and tumblr is very gatekeepy and elitist, especially with their roleplay community.

i don't really like tiktok either, but i've pretty much accepted most people use it. my friend and i have conversations about it decently often because she's a big reader and has issues with a lot of the booktok culture. mainly, it seems like people are more interested in pretty books to put on a shelf and pretend to read, rather than just admitting they don't read. influencer culture as a whole just feels very fake to me.

i might look into quests once i start my new job (or if i get more free time before that). the main reason i stick to writing short stories if i'm not roleplaying is because i tend to lose track of where i should go next if i don't have a partner (or several) to ping ideas off of.

I feel like there are some changes that need to be made in roleplaying etiquette and attitudes, but not so much in modality.
I feel like too many people are making their rps more exclusive than they need to be whether they mean to or not, and I've had to pass up some ideas that I loved because of these exclusions.

Things I'd like to see become "obsolete"

• Hard minimums for post length. I understand wanting substance to work with, but you can get that without insisting on excess verbosity that people can't always deliver on. "Just don't join my rp" is not a sentence that will help anyone because the fact is that it's can be hard to find ideas that appeal, and it's hard to host an rp at all let alone host one that's original enough or generic enough not to even resemble plagiarism. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, and then getting jabbed by said needle.
• Offsite OOC. Hazards aside, it's an inconvenience to have to log in to two separate sites in order to keep yourself in the loop. I don't understand the appeal whatsoever, and yes, I've tried it.
• Misunderstanding of intellectual property ownership. Nothing like when people try to "copyright" generic things that they obviously did not invent, such as characters who are Irish and terms like "werecreature." I've had people on other sites even ask me if it was ok to make an rp like one I've made despite the rp in question being very generic and very obviously not an original idea of mine. These debacles were mainly on another site, but are worth mentioning.
• Rude intolerance for common beginner mistakes. Whether it's grammar or etiquette, I feel like many people in and out of the roleplaying community have always jumped at the opportunity to berate someone even when things could be worked out more politely.
• The word "roleplay" being treated as synonymous with sexual roleplay. I'm always leery of sites other than this one because most people in the world don't seem to get that roleplay isn't inherently sexual.

a lot of these points you've brought up i wasn't aware were problems people still ran into, though maybe i just haven't noticed them at all from my little corner of the internet. the first point i agree with to a degree - there shouldn't be a tangible minimum that dipping below means expulsion, but i'd say (and this is more for 1x1 roleplay than groups) mirroring posts should be common courtesy. i say this because i know what it feels like to put a few hours into writing a sizeable post and getting nothing in return. you don't need to match length, but you should at least address everything presented in the previous post, or if there's nothing left to say, transition the scene with content for your partner to react to. a lot of partners i've had in the past struggled with the "transition" part of this, and as a result, i've pretty much always been the person to write starting posts or time skips. it doesn't bother me because i love to do scene setting, but it does get tiring after a while.

offsite ooc is nonsense for a group rp. while i don't mind chatting with 1x1 partners over discord and memeing in dms (because discord is easier to check and respond to quickly), there's no reason for groups to be the same way, unless the rp is already on discord or a similar platform.

for your last point, i wouldn't necessarily say the synonymous nature is the reason why a lot of people opt to writing erotic content. people like writing romance, and when people are adults in places where nsfw content is allowed, they make a beeline for it. it sucks for people who write explicit gore, mental health, or heavy drug use to be lumped in with that crowd, but it is what it is, and i don't think that stigma will ever change.

 

[StrixDesmodus]

watching movies, tv, or youtube is something i generally only do while working on something menial, like washing dishes or doing laundry. that's mostly because if i'm watching something, i want to watch it, and i don't divide my attention well (read: i can't watch something if i'm playing a game or writing). i like to watch things, sure, but i'm not much of a re-watcher. as for social media, i have both twitter and tumblr, but neither see any use. twitter is... twitter (even before it became "x") and tumblr is very gatekeepy and elitist, especially with their roleplay community.

i don't really like tiktok either, but i've pretty much accepted most people use it. my friend and i have conversations about it decently often because she's a big reader and has issues with a lot of the booktok culture. mainly, it seems like people are more interested in pretty books to put on a shelf and pretend to read, rather than just admitting they don't read. influencer culture as a whole just feels very fake to me.

i might look into quests once i start my new job (or if i get more free time before that). the main reason i stick to writing short stories if i'm not roleplaying is because i tend to lose track of where i should go next if i don't have a partner (or several) to ping ideas off of.

a lot of these points you've brought up i wasn't aware were problems people still ran into, though maybe i just haven't noticed them at all from my little corner of the internet. the first point i agree with to a degree - there shouldn't be a tangible minimum that dipping below means expulsion, but i'd say (and this is more for 1x1 roleplay than groups) mirroring posts should be common courtesy. i say this because i know what it feels like to put a few hours into writing a sizeable post and getting nothing in return. you don't need to match length, but you should at least address everything presented in the previous post, or if there's nothing left to say, transition the scene with content for your partner to react to. a lot of partners i've had in the past struggled with the "transition" part of this, and as a result, i've pretty much always been the person to write starting posts or time skips. it doesn't bother me because i love to do scene setting, but it does get tiring after a while.

offsite ooc is nonsense for a group rp. while i don't mind chatting with 1x1 partners over discord and memeing in dms (because discord is easier to check and respond to quickly), there's no reason for groups to be the same way, unless the rp is already on discord or a similar platform.

for your last point, i wouldn't necessarily say the synonymous nature is the reason why a lot of people opt to writing erotic content. people like writing romance, and when people are adults in places where nsfw content is allowed, they make a beeline for it. it sucks for people who write explicit gore, mental health, or heavy drug use to be lumped in with that crowd, but it is what it is, and i don't think that stigma will ever change.

Most of the problems are what I come across when I venture to other sites. I don't have much else to say about my other points, but I think I should clarify the last one: There are people I've "met" that, per their own statement, believe all roleplay is sexual. I take the time clear this misconception when I come across someone who believes it, because these people also tend to use this idea to either condemn all roleplay or sexualize characters and situations that weren't meant for that against their author's will. Most of this has taken place on a site I've used that is supposed to be segmented with sexual roleplay in one section and nonsexual roleplay in it's own section too. Inevitably, people looking for sexual rp have spilled into the nonsexual section and cited the idea that roleplay is inherently sexual as justification for metaphorically harassing a restaurant worker for not selling them a pair of shoes.
Now I don't think that sexual roleplay is wrong or anything, but it's not really my cup of tea and I've had my boundaries regarding it crossed a lot. Usually, the reasoning that those who have crossed those boundaries use is the aforementioned one.

 

[Idea]

That's interesting. From my quick check, it looks like voters are wondering where the story went for a lot of them lol. Understandable on stopping because of what it'd require. Did you get any feedback though? While you were doing it, did people love the format?

There was mixed feedback, some people forgetting or dropping out and some understanding of my own problem after a vacation. Looking back, I think my issue of overcomplicating or maybe I got a little too ambitious with Rewind and the other quest RP I tried that I'm not being able to find, Rewind probably needing more planning for the characters and time travel plot and the other one for me stretching a bit too far with the mechanical side. I think some of the things I tried back then wouldn't even work with the site's current capabilities coding-wise.

Hard minimums for post length. I understand wanting substance to work with, but you can get that without insisting on excess verbosity that people can't always deliver on. "Just don't join my rp" is not a sentence that will help anyone because the fact is that it's can be hard to find ideas that appeal, and it's hard to host an rp at all let alone host one that's original enough or generic enough not to even resemble plagiarism. It's like finding a needle in a haystack, and then getting jabbed by said needle

In my experience in trying various methods, hard minimums have worked best in finding partners I actually want to work with. This isn't to say I give my partners no flexibility at all (provided this is not abused) and there have been some hidden gems that have surprised me, but how you think, what you value and what you're comfortable with writing will influence what you actually write and how much. People wanting similar things, not only in how much detail but also what kind of detail, will often end up naturally writing posts of similar length at least by some very broad brackets, I find. The minimums are not a good in of itself, but they are practical by their simplicity and effectiveness. There are some people who throw minimums just because, and I think those people should probably drop it, they are only hurting themselves. But then there's people like me using these as filters. Hard minimums are a means to an end - and so far, I have yet to find or be shown a better means. Usually when people propose an alternative it is not based on the effectiveness of it compared to hard minimums, but based on disregarding what I want in a roleplay in favor of that person's own standards, which really just goes to reinforce that point of a mentality/values difference.

 

[StrixDesmodus]

In my experience in trying various methods, hard minimums have worked best in finding partners I actually want to work with. This isn't to say I give my partners no flexibility at all (provided this is not abused) and there have been some hidden gems that have surprised me, but how you think, what you value and what you're comfortable with writing will influence what you actually write and how much. People wanting similar things, not only in how much detail but also what kind of detail, will often end up naturally writing posts of similar length at least by some very broad brackets, I find. The minimums are not a good in of itself, but they are practical by their simplicity and effectiveness. There are some people who throw minimums just because, and I think those people should probably drop it, they are only hurting themselves. But then there's people like me using these as filters. Hard minimums are a means to an end - and so far, I have yet to find or be shown a better means. Usually when people propose an alternative it is not based on the effectiveness of it compared to hard minimums, but based on disregarding what I want in a roleplay in favor of that person's own standards, which really just goes to reinforce that point of a mentality/values difference.

What gets me is that I've interacted with people who forget that roleplay is in its heart a collaborative activity, and it's put me off of so much as engaging with people who either try to impose a hard minimum or asking someone what they mean by "semi literate" or any similar situation. And when I wasn't informed of such a rule before expressing interest but it gets made anyway, it's embarrassing to have to either negotiate or say that I have to drop out. Especially for group rp, I find it disheartening to be left out time and time again all because the host doesn't think that anything worth reading can be put succinctly, or that there are ever times when there isn't much to say.
Sometimes I feel like people don't care about substance or style, and they just want someone who can provide bulky posts. They probably aren't even aware that they're gatekeeping, either, or that they're mimicking the people who cyber-bullied me on another site. But it still hurts.
It's like going to a movie theater without wheelchair ramps. Even if I can walk just fine, it's not fair to the people who can't. And remembering what I've been through, it's not fair to people like me either.

 

[Idea]

What gets me is that I've interacted with people who forget that roleplay is in its heart a collaborative activity, and it's put me off of so much as engaging with people who either try to impose a hard minimum or asking someone what they mean by "semi literate" or any similar situation

Sure, if you don't want to engage with it, I think that's fair. I just wanted to present a different perspective and bring up why someone would still have good reason to adhere to something you say should be "obsolete".

And when I wasn't informed of such a rule before expressing interest but it gets made anyway, it's embarrassing to have to either negotiate or say that I have to drop out. Especially for group rp

I will say, this part I think you have every right to be upset about. To impose a rule - regardless of this or any other such kind of rule that is clearly not in response to an unforeseen need of the roleplay - after the roleplay has already been agreed to as opposed to in the initial interest check is something I don't think should be done. It's not fair to just throw rules at people that weren't stated, nor is there even the usefulness that I spoke of earlier. That being said, I will say that the exact situation you're describing, that of suddenly being told that actually you should be posting this or that, is precisely why people might ask you what you mean by "semi literate". After all if it doesn't mean anything then why say it, and if it does mean something then it is in effect expressing a minimum, just without actually telling people what it is. A flexible minimum perhaps, but a minimum nonetheless.

I find it disheartening to be left out time and time again all because the host doesn't think that anything worth reading can be put succinctly, or that there are ever times when there isn't much to say.

That same thought process could be put to anything where people don't share interests, values or preferences. I might prefer to write female characters and have characters that otherwise fit wonderfully into their plots and wants, or I might not like low fantasy stories precisely in their disdain of the magical aspect of fantasy, or historical as a genre because the people most passionate for it will also be the most nitpicky and inflexible about certain details I have no means of knowing, and I may not like when RPs are too flexible with posting length but I saw them time and time again degenerate into a number of short posts whose pacing was too fast for me to keep up, barely moved the story and yet read (to me) about as immersive as a shopping list. Those posts might be very fun to those who write them, and there might even be quality to them, but I just couldn't get into something that to me felt that lifeless. Does this mean that all or even any of these RPs in being made are excluding me? No, of course not. I suppose one could argue there would be exclusion if those were the only types of roleplays being made, but otherwise it's just different strokes for different folks.

One could go even further: By the logic that being told you are not the right match for a roleplay on account of you wanting something different than what the roleplay proposes or requires then every single roleplay that doesn't offer you something you'd want is "excluding" you in that sense. So the mere absence of an idea you like in it would, by this logic, be exclusionary. If this isn't the case then something must dictate that you do not in fact have a right to participate in every single roleplay you please, and therefore a mismatch - be it because of length requirements or any other - is not exclusion unless you are forbidden from making or participating in similar roleplays without those conditions. Which you are not.

The alternative is to say that length requirements are different from genre tastes, rules regarding what characters are played and other forms of preference. And while length requirements are indeed slightly different in that they are used as proxy for other things, those other things are themselves preferences. I have yet to see anyone being able to make this distinction. I have seen a lot of claims that it exists, but all of them disregarding other people's preferences or making assumptions about people who like/make longer posts based on notions that I've only seen apply to low-skill / inexperienced writers or those who don't like long length and are just pushing it for some alternative reason (in which case they shouldn't be in that kind of roleplay, let alone demanding it).

Long story short:
1.Length requirements are expressions of preference, which I believe in most cases represent preferences that are linked to length rather than length itself, though this is secondary to this particular induction.
2.Length requirements are not sufficiently distinct from other preferences by any non-arbitrary standards such as to claim them to be in a separate category.
3.Because of this, the claim that length requirements that don't match your preference excludes you directly by its own logic means that any roleplay that does not match your preferences in every way - to a greater or lesser extent - is excluding you.
4.Since the notion that 99% of all roleplays are excluding you simply by not being what you want is categorically absurd so is the notion that something not matching your preferences is excluding you, unless it forbids you from engaging in or creating something similar that does match your preferences OR the initial premise being wrong and length requirements being somehow a different category of preference to others.
5.You are in fact not forbidden from making roleplays that are similar to those or participating in ones who are.
6.I have yet to see a legitimate dispute of that initial premise.

Sometimes I feel like people don't care about substance or style, and they just want someone who can provide bulky posts.

But have you considered that maybe they do, and just prefer a different form of it than you? That perhaps there is substance you don't recognize as substance but others do and don't want to lose in the pursuit succinctness that disregards it?

It's like going to a movie theater without wheelchair ramps. Even if I can walk just fine, it's not fair to the people who can't. And remembering what I've been through, it's not fair to people like me either.

There's a substantial difference there: In the movie theater, if the people in wheelchairs can get up the ramps and buy a ticket, everyone wins. The theater, movie makers, everyone employed by them is benefitting (to a lesser or greater extent) by the extra money and viewership, and the person in the wheelchair gets to enjoy the movie.

A more honest comparison would be forcing a theater that airs only horror movies to make a ramp exclusively so a group of people in wheelchairs who don't like horror movies (perhaps big fans of movies in general, but not horror) can watch it. In this scenario you've done the opposite. You've wasted money to the theater, you've given the people in the wheelchairs a bad movie experience and you may even have taken seats away from horror movie fans. And even in this example the wheelchair horror-hating group would probably just not go to the theater in the first place. But the elimination of filters like hard minimums makes roleplays made by people who dislike the kind of writing in them more attractive to precisely the kind of people whom they don't want to partner with.

Trying to find the right match for people is what benefits everyone, but it does require that sometimes people get told no or find that something isn't working out. Otherwise everyone's time and effort are wasted and everyone ends up unhappy. And if someone's standards are too high or too difficult to meet then they will have to either give up searching or lower those standards - as indeed many people with obscure fandoms or pairings find out. Sure, there might be an exception here or there. I have found one myself. But this one exception was someone willing to show to me they were capable of meeting my standards and the kind of writing style I was looking for.

There is one more difference to mention: While a ramp make it physically an extreme hurdle - if not impossible in some cases - for the person in the wheelchair to have access to the movie theater, without assistance at least, nothing is physically stopping you from trying to meet length requirements. Let's say you're not someone with a lot of inspiration and you don't have a lot of time, so some of the worst conditions for meeting length. You're still able to regurgitate some low-quality thing that technically meets the standard. You might not like it, in fact probably nobody will if they you do that - but neither will they be happy if you keep putting up posts they don't like and the only reason they're working with you is out of a sense of obligation to not say this isn't working out and ending the roleplay. In the wheelchair example, the people in wheelchairs can't get to the theater, but in your case you don't want to. If you don't feel appreciated, then it's not like the other person will start magically appreciating your output the moment they feel forced to give you a spot. Why would you want to roleplay with them? As you've stated yourself, I don't think you do. So why insist on it? Why not just let people state those preferences and meet with other people who alos have them, and you and other people with your preferences can meet up and share a roleplay you enjoy as well? Plus, it'll be a heck of a lot harder for people in wheelchairs to just get another theater, than it will be for you to find another roleplay.

 

[StrixDesmodus]

Sure, if you don't want to engage with it, I think that's fair. I just wanted to present a different perspective and bring up why someone would still have good reason to adhere to something you say should be "obsolete".



I will say, this part I think you have every right to be upset about. To impose a rule - regardless of this or any other such kind of rule that is clearly not in response to an unforeseen need of the roleplay - after the roleplay has already been agreed to as opposed to in the initial interest check is something I don't think should be done. It's not fair to just throw rules at people that weren't stated, nor is there even the usefulness that I spoke of earlier. That being said, I will say that the exact situation you're describing, that of suddenly being told that actually you should be posting this or that, is precisely why people might ask you what you mean by "semi literate". After all if it doesn't mean anything then why say it, and if it does mean something then it is in effect expressing a minimum, just without actually telling people what it is. A flexible minimum perhaps, but a minimum nonetheless.



That same thought process could be put to anything where people don't share interests, values or preferences. I might prefer to write female characters and have characters that otherwise fit wonderfully into their plots and wants, or I might not like low fantasy stories precisely in their disdain of the magical aspect of fantasy, or historical as a genre because the people most passionate for it will also be the most nitpicky and inflexible about certain details I have no means of knowing, and I may not like when RPs are too flexible with posting length but I saw them time and time again degenerate into a number of short posts whose pacing was too fast for me to keep up, barely moved the story and yet read (to me) about as immersive as a shopping list. Those posts might be very fun to those who write them, and there might even be quality to them, but I just couldn't get into something that to me felt that lifeless. Does this mean that all or even any of these RPs in being made are excluding me? No, of course not. I suppose one could argue there would be exclusion if those were the only types of roleplays being made, but otherwise it's just different strokes for different folks.

One could go even further: By the logic that being told you are not the right match for a roleplay on account of you wanting something different than what the roleplay proposes or requires then every single roleplay that doesn't offer you something you'd want is "excluding" you in that sense. So the mere absence of an idea you like in it would, by this logic, be exclusionary. If this isn't the case then something must dictate that you do not in fact have a right to participate in every single roleplay you please, and therefore a mismatch - be it because of length requirements or any other - is not exclusion unless you are forbidden from making or participating in similar roleplays without those conditions. Which you are not.

The alternative is to say that length requirements are different from genre tastes, rules regarding what characters are played and other forms of preference. And while length requirements are indeed slightly different in that they are used as proxy for other things, those other things are themselves preferences. I have yet to see anyone being able to make this distinction. I have seen a lot of claims that it exists, but all of them disregarding other people's preferences or making assumptions about people who like/make longer posts based on notions that I've only seen apply to low-skill / inexperienced writers or those who don't like long length and are just pushing it for some alternative reason (in which case they shouldn't be in that kind of roleplay, let alone demanding it).

Long story short:
1.Length requirements are expressions of preference, which I believe in most cases represent preferences that are linked to length rather than length itself, though this is secondary to this particular induction.
2.Length requirements are not sufficiently distinct from other preferences by any non-arbitrary standards such as to claim them to be in a separate category.
3.Because of this, the claim that length requirements that don't match your preference excludes you directly by its own logic means that any roleplay that does not match your preferences in every way - to a greater or lesser extent - is excluding you.
4.Since the notion that 99% of all roleplays are excluding you simply by not being what you want is categorically absurd so is the notion that something not matching your preferences is excluding you, unless it forbids you from engaging in or creating something similar that does match your preferences OR the initial premise being wrong and length requirements being somehow a different category of preference to others.
5.You are in fact not forbidden from making roleplays that are similar to those or participating in ones who are.
6.I have yet to see a legitimate dispute of that initial premise.



But have you considered that maybe they do, and just prefer a different form of it than you? That perhaps there is substance you don't recognize as substance but others do and don't want to lose in the pursuit succinctness that disregards it?



There's a substantial difference there: In the movie theater, if the people in wheelchairs can get up the ramps and buy a ticket, everyone wins. The theater, movie makers, everyone employed by them is benefitting (to a lesser or greater extent) by the extra money and viewership, and the person in the wheelchair gets to enjoy the movie.

A more honest comparison would be forcing a theater that airs only horror movies to make a ramp exclusively so a group of people in wheelchairs who don't like horror movies (perhaps big fans of movies in general, but not horror) can watch it. In this scenario you've done the opposite. You've wasted money to the theater, you've given the people in the wheelchairs a bad movie experience and you may even have taken seats away from horror movie fans. And even in this example the wheelchair horror-hating group would probably just not go to the theater in the first place. But the elimination of filters like hard minimums makes roleplays made by people who dislike the kind of writing in them more attractive to precisely the kind of people whom they don't want to partner with.

Trying to find the right match for people is what benefits everyone, but it does require that sometimes people get told no or find that something isn't working out. Otherwise everyone's time and effort are wasted and everyone ends up unhappy. And if someone's standards are too high or too difficult to meet then they will have to either give up searching or lower those standards - as indeed many people with obscure fandoms or pairings find out. Sure, there might be an exception here or there. I have found one myself. But this one exception was someone willing to show to me they were capable of meeting my standards and the kind of writing style I was looking for.

There is one more difference to mention: While a ramp make it physically an extreme hurdle - if not impossible in some cases - for the person in the wheelchair to have access to the movie theater, without assistance at least, nothing is physically stopping you from trying to meet length requirements. Let's say you're not someone with a lot of inspiration and you don't have a lot of time, so some of the worst conditions for meeting length. You're still able to regurgitate some low-quality thing that technically meets the standard. You might not like it, in fact probably nobody will if they you do that - but neither will they be happy if you keep putting up posts they don't like and the only reason they're working with you is out of a sense of obligation to not say this isn't working out and ending the roleplay. In the wheelchair example, the people in wheelchairs can't get to the theater, but in your case you don't want to. If you don't feel appreciated, then it's not like the other person will start magically appreciating your output the moment they feel forced to give you a spot. Why would you want to roleplay with them? As you've stated yourself, I don't think you do. So why insist on it? Why not just let people state those preferences and meet with other people who alos have them, and you and other people with your preferences can meet up and share a roleplay you enjoy as well? Plus, it'll be a heck of a lot harder for people in wheelchairs to just get another theater, than it will be for you to find another roleplay.

I just realized a flaw in my metaphor, and that there's some stuff I should disclose. Imagine every movie theater in an entire tri-state area is confirmed not wheelchair accessible, and outside of the tri-state area, the only wheelchair accessible theaters don't show any movies that interest you AND that it's considered a hallmark of good character to be able to walk all day every day. Whether you use a wheelchair full time or not, it's unfair to you and people like you because not only is the accessibility to the activity impeded, but it's socially acceptable for this to happen.

I have multiple disabilities, and while none of them usually require me to use a wheelchair, a lot of them do affect how I process information and how I turn the information into output. Away from the screen, would you explicitly and without prompt tell someone that you don't want to hang out with them because they have ADHD or autism? And yet on and off the internet, people all the time compile DSM-5-esque lists of what they think makes a person rude or inferior. Even walking too slowly makes people into "acceptable" targets.
There are some ways in which I am more skilled than I could have dreamed of in the past, but the fact is that there is still a lot that I can't do the way people want me to, may never be able to, and shouldn't have to. And no, I'm not going to plagiarize someone's rp in order to participate in a semblance of it.
Roleplaying is, at least in theory, a low-pressure way for me to write. When I'm hosting a roleplay or have joined one within my ability range, I have less stress than I would with solo work where I'm alone with my anxieties. The problem is that hosting requires effort and inspiration that I don't always have in levels beyond what I could do as a non-hosting player and searching can be like pulling teeth even when the searcher, as a player, can appeal to the common taste, which I often cannot.