the dynast with 400 concubines, how to solve?
- Thread starter Persell
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Hanat-Osul
Elder Member
NOTHING.
Silly question.
Silly question.
Jukashi
Four Thousand Club
Where are you going to get 400 concubines without one of them turning out to be an Exalt, god-blood, fair folk or other shoddy imitation at this time of year?
G
Guest
Guest
He was a man whore.
lowguppy
Junior Member
And Eastern Europe was his Bitch.operations said:
Silence In Daylight
One Thousand Club
In the Realm, the preference is for quality Terrestrials or quantity. For Lookshy, such a thing would be ideal--why else would they have such a large number of DBs for their population size?
 A large part of what's stopping the above DB would be...
Stamina. And interest.
DeepFlowingRiver
Junior Member
solomon also said at the end of his lives to his boys regaurding his lush lifestyel "vanity, vanity, it is all vanity" the term vanity in the hebrew means soapbubble. It make look pretty but it is super fragile and hollow as well.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
Well, there is the whole idea of preserving and lining blood lines up to increase the chances--their Dynasts for a reason, because the houses were founded by folks with Dragon Blood, and even their children who don't express, still carry the blood, which may breed true later on. Â Getting two young folk who carry the blood, but haven't expressed still gives them a chance at bearing a Dragon Blooded child. Â The Dynasts breed to increase those chances.
The question is: do these 400 concubines, do they have the Blood as well, in their past? Â If so, how in the heck did they manage to get saddled with being concubines? Â You're looking at lowering the chances of a strong bloodline with this method, which is why the Dynasts don't just saddle up and get on with the huge breeding farm idea. Â It lowers the kids' Breeding.
And the Dynasts aren't just interested in producing a lot of heirs, but strong heirs, who will have increased chances of themselves breeding true, which means more advantageous marriages, which means more power acruing to the House, not just the single family.
Not that someone who just wants to rack up numbers, and to hell with rest of Realm, say in the Threshold, and looking to create his own family of Draong Blooded ninja-style operatives might not get into this sort of thing. Â A couple of good Charms, and a few choice bits of Sorcery, and perhaps an Artifact or two to help him keep...abreast of things would be di rigor. Â And a lot of free time to devote to schtupping his way to success--however he's judging success that is. Â Incredible numbers of Dragon Blooded kin, far and away from the Realm, loyal to him, and that might even mean using Sorcery and odd Artifacts on them to insure their loyalty, and you've got a good plot thread to play with.
Have at it.
The question is: do these 400 concubines, do they have the Blood as well, in their past? Â If so, how in the heck did they manage to get saddled with being concubines? Â You're looking at lowering the chances of a strong bloodline with this method, which is why the Dynasts don't just saddle up and get on with the huge breeding farm idea. Â It lowers the kids' Breeding.
And the Dynasts aren't just interested in producing a lot of heirs, but strong heirs, who will have increased chances of themselves breeding true, which means more advantageous marriages, which means more power acruing to the House, not just the single family.
Not that someone who just wants to rack up numbers, and to hell with rest of Realm, say in the Threshold, and looking to create his own family of Draong Blooded ninja-style operatives might not get into this sort of thing. Â A couple of good Charms, and a few choice bits of Sorcery, and perhaps an Artifact or two to help him keep...abreast of things would be di rigor. Â And a lot of free time to devote to schtupping his way to success--however he's judging success that is. Â Incredible numbers of Dragon Blooded kin, far and away from the Realm, loyal to him, and that might even mean using Sorcery and odd Artifacts on them to insure their loyalty, and you've got a good plot thread to play with.
Have at it.
Quchu
One Thousand Club
Certain Chinese emperors had concubines in number of thousands, or so I hear... And of course more than half of them never got to meet their husband. And what sucks even more is when the emperor, whom they have never even seen, dies and the concubines are to be buried with him.
Well anyway. I think DBs have too much ego to make a systematic DB factory. Sure, more DBs are always good, but why should be a demigod do it? For gods' sake, he's a demigod, not a machine...
...though, if I remember correctly, didn't some DB scientists of the Shogunate period mangle with DB genes? A fellow player of mine found something that could possibly mean that the Scarlet Empress is a result of a superDB project... or something. I'm not sure.
Well anyway. I think DBs have too much ego to make a systematic DB factory. Sure, more DBs are always good, but why should be a demigod do it? For gods' sake, he's a demigod, not a machine...
...though, if I remember correctly, didn't some DB scientists of the Shogunate period mangle with DB genes? A fellow player of mine found something that could possibly mean that the Scarlet Empress is a result of a superDB project... or something. I'm not sure.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
sssssz--If I recall right, the first water clock was designed to keep track of the concubine nooky schedule. Â I can see a rich Dynast commissioning all sorts of goodies to keep his personal mission to impregnate every single one of his concubines. Â
Of course, then they'd be mothers to a Dynast, and he'd lose them, as they would be mothers to a new Dynast, and he'd have to share his wealth with them, and there would probably be all sorts of infighting at the inheritance, so this sort of plan is probably not best in the Realm, but far and away from the Magistrates' prying eyes, or the court's ears...
Of course, then they'd be mothers to a Dynast, and he'd lose them, as they would be mothers to a new Dynast, and he'd have to share his wealth with them, and there would probably be all sorts of infighting at the inheritance, so this sort of plan is probably not best in the Realm, but far and away from the Magistrates' prying eyes, or the court's ears...
lowguppy
Junior Member
The Ming treasure fleets had entire ships devoted to concubines. They were often used as diplomatic leverage, entertaining foreign dignitaries or given as wives.
The problem a DB would have with a hoard of children, would be a hoard of children vieing for his wealth and power. Suleiman had to kill one of his own sons to guarantee which one would. It was a fairly common tradition in the Ottoman empire for the succeeding son to kill his brothers. Happened a lot in Feudal England too. Not to mention patricide, a la Alexander the Great, among others. So, the solution would be that, like all DBs, they would fix themselves pretty well through in fighting. Serioiusly, the #1 road block to sidereal plans for the DBs is keeping them from killing eachother, or rather making sure that they kill the right ones.
The problem a DB would have with a hoard of children, would be a hoard of children vieing for his wealth and power. Suleiman had to kill one of his own sons to guarantee which one would. It was a fairly common tradition in the Ottoman empire for the succeeding son to kill his brothers. Happened a lot in Feudal England too. Not to mention patricide, a la Alexander the Great, among others. So, the solution would be that, like all DBs, they would fix themselves pretty well through in fighting. Serioiusly, the #1 road block to sidereal plans for the DBs is keeping them from killing eachother, or rather making sure that they kill the right ones.
Kajata
Junior Member
If you're creating a lot of DB children you get the problem that comes up if you're a farmer in revolutionary france; your land, wealth, goods, and everything else you own, is getting split between your DB children (as I remember, the only inheritence laws are that DB children get first dibs on stuff, and it gets split equally between them? Â Or am I just silly? 
). Â This means that your land holdings are getting smaller and smaller with each generation, becoming more and more useless, especially if each and every DB child is following daddy's example and shacking up with 100+ concubines. Â By the 4th generation, your wealth could be down to a Jade talon and a square foot of land for each great great grandchild
). Â This means that your land holdings are getting smaller and smaller with each generation, becoming more and more useless, especially if each and every DB child is following daddy's example and shacking up with 100+ concubines. Â By the 4th generation, your wealth could be down to a Jade talon and a square foot of land for each great great grandchild 
Solfi
One Thousand Club
Solution: Communal Wealth.... All wealth belong to their respective houses, and excellence grants privilege (which is, on some level, the way it works now).
I think it would just be a great way to dilute a bloodline.
The way genetics work here are actually quite simple. When gaia created the dragonblooded they were per definition all inheritance 5, perhaps even 6 or 7, a state of pure breed which cannot be achieved in the second age due to the line getting diluted with mortals ages ago.
So, creating a large number of thin blooded terrestrials gets you two things:
1. A short term powerboost, through a shitload of children
2. A lot of dragon blooded of really poor breeding
This effect gets worse from generation to generation and I would think that after a few more generations you probably get terrestrials with negative inheritance/breeding due to the dilution of the bloodline.
I think lookshy was excempt from that because of the relatively small population and therefore more people with terrestrial and/or god blood in their veines already. Being in the scavenger lands and all. godbloods will be really rare on the isle due to the strict immaculate philosophy.
The way genetics work here are actually quite simple. When gaia created the dragonblooded they were per definition all inheritance 5, perhaps even 6 or 7, a state of pure breed which cannot be achieved in the second age due to the line getting diluted with mortals ages ago.
So, creating a large number of thin blooded terrestrials gets you two things:
1. A short term powerboost, through a shitload of children
2. A lot of dragon blooded of really poor breeding
This effect gets worse from generation to generation and I would think that after a few more generations you probably get terrestrials with negative inheritance/breeding due to the dilution of the bloodline.
I think lookshy was excempt from that because of the relatively small population and therefore more people with terrestrial and/or god blood in their veines already. Being in the scavenger lands and all. godbloods will be really rare on the isle due to the strict immaculate philosophy.
Bear in mind also that the Realm has laws about how unexalted family members can be treated. So you can't just send the rejects off to fend for themselves, or kill them, or whatever.
Given that you'll need to educate all your children as if they were going to exalt unless you want to be producing some fairly shitty exalts, this plan would get very expensive very quickly.
Given that you'll need to educate all your children as if they were going to exalt unless you want to be producing some fairly shitty exalts, this plan would get very expensive very quickly.
Solfi
One Thousand Club
Why is it that every "Power through the blood"-scheme in games I've seen *always* work on the premise of dilution? I'm getting pretty tired of it... What happened to strengthening the line through diversity, and evolution?
Solfi
One Thousand Club
... not really. Giving all your children a first-rate education means they will be useful to the family (and the Realm) even though they don't Exalt. After all, the DB:s aren't plentiful enough to be in *every* position of authority and certainly not enough to manage every aspect of the Realm. Hell, they're not even enough to fill all the officer's positions in the legions ...Fruan said:
The Realm *needs* well-trained, educated mortals. And so do the Houses. Hell, in the day-to-day trudge, the mortals are probably the ones who are *actually* bringing in the dough used to further the ambitions and machinations of the Houses.
Oh yes, I agree - Such a scheme could ultimately pay off. I'm just pointing out that the expense is *heavily* front loaded. If you're going to try to impregnate 400 concubines then you're going to need to afford 400 educations. That's a whole lot of jade to invest in what is honnestly not that great an idea.
Solfi
One Thousand Club
... the trick is not to go from zero to 400 concubines in one generation... You have to pace yourself.
Jakk Bey
One Thousand Club
Solfi--If you've got access to some prime concubines, from families with high Breeding, then it's not a dilution. Â But, that means getting a hold of daughters of Dynasts, or Outcastes, for your breeding stock. Â Which could bring some heat if those gals don't go willingly.
If I wanted to breed for blue eyes, and I thought to myself, Â "Self, I's going to just get me a crap load of gals, and we is gonna breed me some blue-eyed babies!" Â and then proceded to take a lot of brown eyed gals in, my chances of coming up with a blue eyed child ain't so great, as if I started with a bunch of gals with some blue. Â Just simple husbandry there. Â Breeding for traits means you want to start with folks with at least some of the traits you're looking to preserve or express.
Just taking a crap load of concubines isn't going to insure that you get some good DB children, just lots of kids who might through sheer numbers, but not with the chances with more careful selection for traits--which is what the Dynasts do, by arranging marriages through their families, not just for alliances, but to increase the chance of expressing DB children. Â
In real world terms...yes, if you reduce a family tree to a family bush, there are some problems. Â Sometimes a line improves with a little...hybrid vigor. Â But, if you were looking to preserve a mystical trait, and that was a requirement for noble marriages, then the dating pool gets a wee bit smaller. Â And the Dynasts are looking to not just get a lot of DBs, but a lot of strong DBs and that power, in game, is accreted by breeding. Â Two folks with Dragon Blood in their direct line have a better chance at producing a DB than two random folks. Â A DB has a better chance at producing a DB with someone with a little DB in their line than without.
Which brings us back the question of "will the concubines by Dynasts or Outcaste brides"? Â
This idea has some potential as a plot thread, but there are some inherent flaws with it--and those flaws make it an intereting proposition, because it runs against the usual Dynast grain.
But what if an Outcaste decides, "Fuck it, I'm going to have a bunch of Dragon Blooded Ninjas, and then my kids are going to fuck some shit up" then you've got some potential for some fun. Â Or better yet, an Outcaste figured this out three generations ago, and has had 100 years to gather up girls from across the Realm, kidnapping and stealing girl children from accross the Realm and the Threshold, importing them from the Scavenger Lands as well, and setting himself up in some mountain fortress, hidden from prying eyes, teaching his children all sorts of forbidden things, with some Sorcerous means to insure their loyalty, nip off any ambition, train them to be operatives, and setting himself up as a rival to the Lintha or the Guild in some areas, or as an intelligence gathering organization that has begun hiring itself out the Realm and others on the down low, working to get his children into positions where their eyes can do him the most good.
If I wanted to breed for blue eyes, and I thought to myself, Â "Self, I's going to just get me a crap load of gals, and we is gonna breed me some blue-eyed babies!" Â and then proceded to take a lot of brown eyed gals in, my chances of coming up with a blue eyed child ain't so great, as if I started with a bunch of gals with some blue. Â Just simple husbandry there. Â Breeding for traits means you want to start with folks with at least some of the traits you're looking to preserve or express.
Just taking a crap load of concubines isn't going to insure that you get some good DB children, just lots of kids who might through sheer numbers, but not with the chances with more careful selection for traits--which is what the Dynasts do, by arranging marriages through their families, not just for alliances, but to increase the chance of expressing DB children. Â
In real world terms...yes, if you reduce a family tree to a family bush, there are some problems. Â Sometimes a line improves with a little...hybrid vigor. Â But, if you were looking to preserve a mystical trait, and that was a requirement for noble marriages, then the dating pool gets a wee bit smaller. Â And the Dynasts are looking to not just get a lot of DBs, but a lot of strong DBs and that power, in game, is accreted by breeding. Â Two folks with Dragon Blood in their direct line have a better chance at producing a DB than two random folks. Â A DB has a better chance at producing a DB with someone with a little DB in their line than without.
Which brings us back the question of "will the concubines by Dynasts or Outcaste brides"? Â
This idea has some potential as a plot thread, but there are some inherent flaws with it--and those flaws make it an intereting proposition, because it runs against the usual Dynast grain.
But what if an Outcaste decides, "Fuck it, I'm going to have a bunch of Dragon Blooded Ninjas, and then my kids are going to fuck some shit up" then you've got some potential for some fun. Â Or better yet, an Outcaste figured this out three generations ago, and has had 100 years to gather up girls from across the Realm, kidnapping and stealing girl children from accross the Realm and the Threshold, importing them from the Scavenger Lands as well, and setting himself up in some mountain fortress, hidden from prying eyes, teaching his children all sorts of forbidden things, with some Sorcerous means to insure their loyalty, nip off any ambition, train them to be operatives, and setting himself up as a rival to the Lintha or the Guild in some areas, or as an intelligence gathering organization that has begun hiring itself out the Realm and others on the down low, working to get his children into positions where their eyes can do him the most good.
Silence In Daylight
One Thousand Club
 'Cause the people writing the mechanics either aren't geneticists, or want to avoid abuse by power-gamers.Solfi said:
 I've had fun in a generational DB game I ran by making available Craft: Animal Husbandry--that works on sentient beings as well. =)
Solfi
One Thousand Club
... There are other ways to keep game abuse in check.
I suppose it's because I like to have some sort of natural balance to these things that I get so jarred.
I suppose it's because I like to have some sort of natural balance to these things that I get so jarred.
lowguppy
Junior Member
There are cases in which pure/in breeding can have the desired results. You can breed for specific traits and a small percentage of the time get a subject with all or most of those traits. The problem is, the more you do it, the more utterly defective subjects you have. Then, if you're stuck in a rigid  bloodline determined governmental system, when that fine subject dies, you get a fucktard for a ruler, and the whole country goes to the shitter.
As for why games seem stuck on dilution being a bad thing, its because its fantasy, and really, that's what the European monarchs' view of reality was.
Sadly, one of the few sources I've seen where the awesome guys breeding with mortals doesn't make the kids weaker, is DBZ, the kids just get more and more badass. Then again, that's a show with a 'power creep'.
As for why games seem stuck on dilution being a bad thing, its because its fantasy, and really, that's what the European monarchs' view of reality was.
Sadly, one of the few sources I've seen where the awesome guys breeding with mortals doesn't make the kids weaker, is DBZ, the kids just get more and more badass. Then again, that's a show with a 'power creep'.
Silence In Daylight
One Thousand Club
So, design something, and specify its limitations. Say, only one dot of Breeding increase per generation.--and for simplicity's sake, assume that its only works for DBs of equal Breeding. Â For example:
 A Breeding 2 DB needs to find a another DB with Breeding 2, that has a specific genetic inheritance--found in X percent of all Breeding 2 DBs. Once she finds the appropriate male, their progeny will have a Y percent chance of producing a Breeding 3 DB. The ST would tweak X and Y to fit her setting.
 A note about this: this means that a decrease in Breeding is possible--the same DB couple from above could end up with Breeding 0 or 1 progeny.
 Alternatively, one could simply rule that those cases would result in lack of Exaltation.
 So, a decrease in Exaltation rate, in exchange for a potential increase in quality of Breeding...hmm, I rather like this, if I do say so myself.  :wink:
 A Breeding 2 DB needs to find a another DB with Breeding 2, that has a specific genetic inheritance--found in X percent of all Breeding 2 DBs. Once she finds the appropriate male, their progeny will have a Y percent chance of producing a Breeding 3 DB. The ST would tweak X and Y to fit her setting.
 A note about this: this means that a decrease in Breeding is possible--the same DB couple from above could end up with Breeding 0 or 1 progeny.
 Alternatively, one could simply rule that those cases would result in lack of Exaltation.
 So, a decrease in Exaltation rate, in exchange for a potential increase in quality of Breeding...hmm, I rather like this, if I do say so myself.  :wink: