Supplemental Charms in reflexive combos

[nonamemaddoxx]

While thinking for a cool combo to give to my abyssal character, I came across a little problem.  The combo consisted of the reflexive charms Elegant Flowing Deflection, Fluttering Moth Defense, Vengeful Riposte and Artful Maiming Onslaught (the effects of the charms are, respectively, to increase parry pool, give a normal reflexive parry, turn a sucessful parry into an attack with extra successes on the parry being the attack pool, and chop of limbs; all are reflexive except the last one, which is supplemental).  However, after reviewing the combat system and combo rules, I was left with the question: would I have declare the combo during initiave or could I just activate it as a reflexive combo, given that the last charm is supplemental but stems from a reflexive one?  or in the case I attack first, would I have to activate it upon my attack in order to use it for defense later? How exactly would it work? Any help you guys can give me regarding these rules will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Fruan]

The problem here is that Artful Maiming Onslaught really really shouldn't be a supplimental charm; it being so fucks up the combo rules in more or less the ways you just detailed.


(Minor rant: GOD I wish the writers took the time to understand the combo system. I swear that almost every single fucking charm in Aspect Book Water demonstrates new and interesting ways in which the authors fail to understand the combo rules. Here's a hint guys: to be comboable the charm has to be of instant duration)


Charms should only be supplimental if they modify a normal dice action. The problem here is that AMO modifiys a parry, which is *sometimes* a normal dice action, but frequently is a reflexive dice action. So, really, it should be a reflexive charm. Hell, the first charm you mention, Elegant Flowing Deflection, is a reflexive charm that modifies either a normal dice action parry or a reflexive dice action parry. The problem seems to be that authours get confused about reflexive charms granting reflexive actions - they *can*, but the don't have to. So AMO could easily be a reflexive charm without it granting a parry itself.


So, really, there are two options for dealing with this:


The first is for your ST to say "Tough. That's the way it's written, that's the way it works." In this case AMO can only benifit parrys taken as your dice action for the turn.


The second is to pretend that AMO is actually reflexive. This is the option I personally would take.


There are way way too many charms in print that require solutions like the second one. I don't even want to think about some of the scene long charms in AB:W that make explicit mention of being comboed.

 

[Fruan]

The problem here is that Artful Maiming Onslaught really really shouldn't be a supplimental charm

Actually, forget that - The real problem here is that I'm an idiot.


Artful Maiming Onslaught *should* be a supplimental charm. duh. The Abyssal Charms are all pefect - After writing this self corection I'll go serve some penance in the Labyrinth for doubting. In my defence, I hadn't noticed Vengeful Ripost in your combo, and had somehow managed to confuse myself into thinking AMO was a counter attack charm. This defence is no defence at all - as I mentioned, I'm an idiot.

 

[Fruan]

OK, here's how it actually works. If I get this wrong again I'm just going to go commit ritual sucide and deal only with arcanoi from then on.


As you have reflexive charms in the combo, you're allowed to activate it any time you like - At the start of a turn, on your initivive, next tuesday, whenever. The most useful time to activate it is just aftersome has attacked you, of course. When you activate Vengeful Riposte, you're allowed to activate Artful Maiming Onslaught to suppliment the attack granted because a) its in a combo you've activated, and b) it suppliments the apropriate type of action (in this case, an attack.)


That's all fun and games - With any luck, someone will lose an eye. What isn't so much fun and games is that you're still bound to the obligations of having activated a combo with a supplimental charm in it - ie, it has to benifit your dice action. So, assuming that you activated the combo before your inititive, when it comes your turn to act, you have to declare at least one attack, and each attack you do declare has to be modified by AMO.


Everything would be *so* much easier if every charm was written to the standards of The Abyssals (*cough*Aspect Book: Water*cough*) - I wouldn't have spent so much time massaging charms to work sanely with the combo rules that I imeadiately assume the problem is with the charm and not with my memory slash reading skills.

 

[Andrew02]

It might help if Combos were treated as the super mega awesome unique super moves they are made out to be in the Corebook. The only mention of combos I know of outside the Corebook is a Lunar in Blood and Salt who has a combo listed in his stat write up, and the specific combo rules Alchemicals have.


My personal take is comboes were ignored in favour other things, such as Sorcery, Necromancy, and Martial Arts.

 

[Fruan]

It might help if Combos were treated as the super mega awesome unique super moves they are made out to be in the Corebook. The only mention of combos I know of outside the Corebook is a Lunar in Blood and Salt who has a combo listed in his stat write up, and the specific combo rules Alchemicals have.
My personal take is comboes were ignored in favour other things, such as Sorcery, Necromancy, and Martial Arts.

Almost all of the characters given stats in Cult of the Illuminated have combos, which is a thankful change. While I haven't sat down and verified all of them, they seem to the legal combos and everything. Needless to say that after Aspect Book: Water, this was a huge surprise!


The problem with combos is that they are legitimately complex. They require more logical understanding than any other part of the rules system by quite a fair margin. As Whitewolf seems to create products to (if I may generalize a tad) market to less mathy-geeky types than its compeditors, I guess this means that most of the players don't bother with them. Hell, it seems that most of the *developers* don't bother with them. The Abyssals, the Mountain Folk Section of The Fairfolk, and The Alchemicals are the only places that I'd wager on having no charms that aren't properly written to work with the combo rules, and (unless I'm mistaken) as all of these charms are written by Neph, this is a rather poor reflection on White Wolf.

 

[Andrew02]

They're too busy typing up lectures on how you're supposed to play the game, I guess. I never would have known Aberrant was not 'Super Friends' if the good people at White Wolf hadn't taken a few pages of their supplement to talk down to me on the subject.

 

[Persell]

When you activate Vengeful Riposte, you're allowed to activate Artful Maiming Onslaught to suppliment the attack granted because a) its in a combo you've activated, and b) it suppliments the apropriate type of action (in this case, an attack.)

The core rulebook is extremely ambiguous on the subject of supplementing reflexive actions. The text for supplemental charms (Big White Book: 154) indicates that they may be used to supplement "normal dice actions" whatever "normal" means. The text on reflexive charms states that they do "not require a dice action" (BWB: 154), and in combos (BWB: 214) indicates that reflexive charms may "be used outside the character's dice action". However, "dice actions" are defined as actions you must roll dice to settle - surely including reflexive parries.


There was a big argument about this on the old Compendium, which I don't intend to replay. I think that, with the rules as written, there is no way to canonically settle the debate, and going either way creates problems (for example, using supplemental charms on reflexive Awareness rolls seems fine, even to someone like me who thinks supplemental charms shouldn't be allowed to supplement reflexive counterattacks). Ultimately each gaming table just has to pick a side and make sure the charms they use are house-ruled to be consistent with their chosen system (and of course make sure that everyone knows which system is being used).


That said, I think there are good reasons to disallow the use of supplemental charms on reflexive counterattacks. The main one is low-Essence power balance. Canny players can otherwise circumvent the usual caps on extra actions. Someone with Peony Blossom Attack, Fire and Stones Strike, and Solar Counterattack in a combo could buy up to Essence extra actions for 3 motes each, supplement them all, and then buy extra supplemented counterattacks at 3 motes each as well. While this sort of thing is fine, it's not the sort of thing an Essence 2 Solar should be able to do. I would create an Essence 4-5 charm that allows the use of supplementals on reflexive counterattacks (obviously, Maiden of the Mirthless Smile has this charm, and uses it to good effect in the Abyssals book).