"Super Solar" Charm in Cult of the Illuminated

[Joseph]

ASCENDANT BATTLE VISAGE
Cost: 10 motes, 1 Willpower


Duration: One turn


Type: Simple


Minimum Brawl: 5


Minimum Endurance: 5


Minimum Essence: 4


Prerequisite Charms: Supremacy of War Method,


Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit


By combining his pure, instinctive awareness of


combat mastered through Supremacy of War Method


with the raging fury mastered through Bloodthirsty Sword-


Dancer Spirit, the Solar unlocks a deadly secret of his


anima. In a fantastic display of power, the Solar’s anima


flares to full totemic glory, and within that pillar of divine


light, the Solar is reshaped, his body marked by his totem


and the colors of his anima. A Night Caste with the


totem of the wolf might gain a long, thick mane of grey


hair, sharpened teeth and violet or golden eyes, and a


Dawn Caste with the totem of the snake might gain a


long, sinuous tattoo of a serpent upon his body and eyes


of violent crimson. In this temporary state of power, the


Solar’s player adds his character’s Essence in automatic


successes to any combat rolls made, excluding damage


rolls, though the number of successes he adds may not


exceed the number of dice rolled, excluding bonus dice


gained from Charms. This Charm lasts only a short time


and threatens to enrage the character if sustained for too


long. Once Ascendant Battle Visage has expired, the


character may reflexively renew it. Doing so costs him no


Essence or Willpower. Instead, for each turn he extends


Ascendant Battle Visage, roll his highest Virtue. Each


success increases his Limit by 1. Should the Solar suffer


Limit Break during the use of this Charm, he frenzies as


per Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit, and Ascendant


Battle Visage’s bonuses remain for the rest of the scene.


The actual effects of the Limit Break itself, including the


bonus to Willpower, begin after the scene ends.

I can't say I like the whole idea of Charms that add to Limit.  I know they've been around since the Caste Books, but they always seemed ridiculous to me.  


Further, why would the Sidereals teach Solars a Charm that was essentially proven to drive them into Limit Break?  Maintaining this for 10 turns GUARANTEES a break, and sometimes as little as two turns (including the turn of activation) can do it.  I just can't imagine Sidereals doing anything less than DISCOURAGING learning this Charm, because it very quickly turns their champions into big problems.

 

[MOK]

I thought they didn't know about it.  They'd only be able to figure it out after saying, "Whoa that was sweet, but that guy went fucking nuts.  Connection?  Ehh...  Nah." a bunch of times.


I don't imagine they've seen the charm in action terribly often, nor discussed it as a forum, so I doubt the pattern will have emerged.  Hell, I'll bet they think it's the greatest damn thing ever.

 

[Joseph]

I thought they didn't know about it.  

I thought the core book said the Sidereal Exalted were aware of the Great Curse, but only insofar as it affected the Solar Exalted.


Even if they were not aware of it, however, I'm pretty sure they'd quickly notice this Charm is a recipie for out of control lunacy.

I don't imagine they've seen the charm in action terribly often, nor discussed it as a forum, so I doubt the pattern will have emerged.  Hell, I'll bet they think it's the greatest damn thing ever.

Presumably they know about it from the First Age, given they really haven't had all that much time to sit around and come up with whole new Charms for other Exalts on their own.  I can't imagine that during that time period, its effects went unnoticed, regardless of whether you accept the Sidereals know about the Solar Great Curse.

 

[Andrew02]

Most of the Limit charms are tied to Virtues in some way, aren't they? It made a little bit of sense, to my mind, that charms tied up with Virtues could have Limits effects. Never liked them, but it was easily believed.


But, in the three years of training, if the Solars get this charm, they'll be breaking a lot. It seems like it'd come up a lot. Kind of like the handful of Lunars the Sidereals have, since they set up that silly mechanic that causes Lunars to gain Limit really fast for obeying Solars.

 

[memesis]

The Charm makes it pretty clear that it turns you into a berzerker.  If my students turned into a raving killing machine for 10-15 minutes, and then had some sort of breakdown after snapping out of it, I wouldn't immediately think "Great Curse" or even "Supernatural curse that the Charm triggers".  I'd think "shell shock".


Why would I think otherwise?  I have no basis for comparison - only Solars can learn the Charm anyway, so it's not like I can say "THAT guy didn't flip out, but THIS Solar did".  The guy just channeled supernatural amounts of energy into becoming a raging killing machine, and some psychological backlash seems inevitable and logical.

 

[Joseph]

I don't see why Lunars should gain Limit for supressing their Virtues in the command of Solar, honestly, much less TWO Limit points.  The book says it's because their inner beasts find the situation unnatural, but quite a few fucking animals live their lives in what essentially amounts to obediance to another creature.  Why would, say, a Wolf Lunar's inner beast find it unnatural to defer to the equivalent of their alpha?


It's retarded, not to mention poorly thought out.

 

[Joseph]

The Charm makes it pretty clear that it turns you into a berzerker.  

I agree.  Being a berzerker has nothing to do with your Limit though.  If this Charm made you go into a violent frenzy if you held it too long, great.  But Solars are just as likely to break down and start crying uncontrollably, letting their followers die in combat while they weep as they are to go nuts and murder people after using this Charm.  

If my students turned into a raving killing machine for 10-15 minutes, and then had some sort of breakdown after snapping out of it, I wouldn't immediately think "Great Curse" or even "Supernatural curse that the Charm triggers".  I'd think "shell shock".

1) Replace "10-15" minutes with "5-10 SECONDS."  Every time you renew the Charm reflexively, you roll for Limit points, and each renewal only has a one turn duration.  Given you are going to be rolling at least three dice each time, and sometimes as many as five, you're not going to last long before the Limit goes off.


2) I'm not even arguing they would HAVE to think "Great Curse" to have a problem with the Charm.  MOST Limit Breaks ruin a Solar's effectiveness for a long duration.  Whether the break drives you to cry uncontrollably, become an acetic for a few days and refuse to involve yourself with anything (including your Sidereal mentors), or just causes you to start murdering people randomly, it'd quickly become clear that this Charm has a BAD psychological effect on beings with demigod level power.  That's not something a wise Sidereal would encourage, regardless of WHY it happened.  

Why would I think otherwise?  I have no basis for comparison - only Solars can learn the Charm anyway, so it's not like I can say "THAT guy didn't flip out, but THIS Solar did".  

Most Limit breaks are pretty obvious, and using this Charm with any frequency WILL result in Limit Breaks.  Add to that that they probably have hundreds of years of practical knowledge about this Charm from the First Age, and it becomes quickly evident that they SHOULD know it turns its users nutty very quickly, regardless of why.  In order to know enough about the theory behind the Charm to teach it in the first place, they de facto have enough experience with it to know its results.

The guy just channeled supernatural amounts of energy into becoming a raging killing machine, and some psychological backlash seems inevitable and logical.

And psychological backlash -- no matter how logical and inevitable -- is not something you want to induce in beings you're trying to manipulate, guide, and control.  Thus, it seems unlikely they'd teach it, and would probably even warn Solars off of learning or using it.

 

[memesis]

1) Replace "10-15" minutes with "5-10 SECONDS."

Read what I said.  "FOR 10-15 MINUTES".  In other words, one Scene.  Yes, onset is almost immediate if you maintain the Charm - I never disputed that.  However, the Limit Break only activates on the scene after this one.  So you will be that mad-eyed killing machine for several minutes.  Then the scene ends, you Break (and get your Willpower back), and that then lasts for however long.

The guy just channeled supernatural amounts of energy into becoming a raging killing machine, and some psychological backlash seems inevitable and logical.

And psychological backlash -- no matter how logical and inevitable -- is not something you want to induce in beings you're trying to manipulate, guide, and control.  Thus, it seems unlikely they'd teach it, and would probably even warn Solars off of learning or using it.

If you have a Charm that lets a brawler defeat armies (and it really does - at 150 XP, a properly-built Solar can wade through legions led by heroic mortals with this Charm's help), sooner or later you are going to have a use for it.  Provided you can safely swing in during the aftermath and scoop up your guy, the side-effects aren't too bad.  Put the poor sap to bed (or tranquilize him) and let him wake up to the news that he made himself the new King of Corneria yesterday.


You may not see it as useful or necessary, but I do.  That's how it goes.

 

[Andrew02]

I'm not exactly sure a Solar would like what this charm does to them, either. I mean, even if the Sidereals don't put two and two together, you'd figure the Solar would realize that charm always makes him go berserk and then spend five days crying a river.

 

[Joseph]

If you have a Charm that lets a brawler defeat armies (and it really does - at 150 XP, a properly-built Solar can wade through legions led by heroic mortals with this Charm's help)

A 150 XP properly-built Solar can wade through legions led by heroic mortals without this Charms help also.  Extras are so easy to kill that the bonus successes would almost invariably go to waste.  I'm not debating how potent the effect is, however.

Put the poor sap to bed (or tranquilize him) and let him wake up to the news that he made himself the new King of Corneria yesterday.

You seem to think it is easier than it is to just casually "put in bed or tranquilize" a Limit Breaking Solar.  Viral agents for use in warfare are useful also, but we don't use them because the results are more problematic than the benefits allow for.  The same is true here, from a properly Sidereal perspective.  


For the Gold Faction to succeed, they MUST remain in control.  Thus, anything that shatters that control, or even encourages it to shatter overly, should not be something the Sidereals would encourage.  This Charm does just that.  You can bullshit about how you can just put a limit breaking Solar in bed for a few days or "tranqilize him," but anyone intelligent recognizes it just isn't that easy.  The LEAST damaging Limit Breaks will make your Solar puppets actively useless for days.  The WORST will ensure they become destructive nightmares for a few days, and you'll almost assuredly either suffer some casualties detaining them, or have to put them down.  Either way, when your Saints start going nuts like that, your control factor diminishes, and that's something the Gold Faction can't work with.

You may not see it as useful or necessary, but I do.  That's how it goes.

I'm not saying it's not useful, I'm saying it's use would not, in the eyes of the Solar's TEACHERS, outweigh the fact that it diminishes their control over the Solar.

 

[Joseph]

I'm not exactly sure a Solar would like what this charm does to them, either. I mean, even if the Sidereals don't put two and two together, you'd figure the Solar would realize that charm always makes him go berserk and then spend five days crying a river.

I agree, but Memesis seems to assert that so long as something has a useful function ANY downside is acceptable.  Evidently Sidereal's wouldn't mind their demigod puppets -- who they are all ready having trouble controlling in certain situations -- completely losing control of themselves for days at a time, so long as they can kill extras slightly more efficiently.  Evidently, they'd even encourage it.


He's clearly wrong, but that's that.

 

[greasy golem gunk]

ASCENDANT BATTLE VISAGE
Cost: 10 motes, 1 Willpower


Duration: One turn


Type: Simple


Minimum Brawl: 5


Minimum Endurance: 5


Minimum Essence: 4


Prerequisite Charms: Supremacy of War Method,


Bloodthirsty Sword-Dancer Spirit

Further, why would the Sidereals teach Solars a Charm that was essentially proven to drive them into Limit Break?  Maintaining this for 10 turns GUARANTEES a break, and sometimes as little as two turns (including the turn of activation) can do it.  I just can't imagine Sidereals doing anything less than DISCOURAGING learning this Charm, because it very quickly turns their champions into big problems.

I imagine only a few Solars develop 5 in Brawl AND Endurance, learn the 4 pre-requisite Endurance charms and the 6 pre-requisite Brawl Charms, as well as the 4th dot of essence needed to start learning this charm.  Even with the new character gen system in the book, you'd have to dedicate the majority of your charms to learn this one, and I think the siderials encourage a spread of charms (one or two methods of combat, one or two methods of social interaction, and umm...  travel?).


I imagine there are maybe 4 solars in the cult (who sports 60 or solars) that know this charm yet, and they were probably very violent before this charm.  


-g3


but that's just my impression.

 

[Andrew02]

I'd imagine 5 Endurance would be common for Kether Rock Solars.


Even if you're right (and I think there's a good chance of it) g3, a Limit Break that causes violence should, as I understand it, be more gruesomely violent than any individual could consistently match on a day to day basis. Red Rage of Compassion or Berserk Anger Breaks are going to stand out unless the character Breaks constantly.

 

[memesis]

I'm not exactly sure a Solar would like what this charm does to them, either. I mean, even if the Sidereals don't put two and two together, you'd figure the Solar would realize that charm always makes him go berserk and then spend five days crying a river.

I agree, but Memesis seems to assert that so long as something has a useful function ANY downside is acceptable.  Evidently Sidereal's wouldn't mind their demigod puppets -- who they are all ready having trouble controlling in certain situations -- completely losing control of themselves for days at a time, so long as they can kill extras slightly more efficiently.  Evidently, they'd even encourage it.


He's clearly wrong, but that's that.

I assert that the downsides of the Charm are less destructive than you seem to think.  Evidently Sidereals wouldn't mind their demigod puppets - who ALREADY WENT INSANE EN MASSE AND WERE PUT DOWN VIOLENTLY - completely losing control of themselves for days at a time.


You're clearly wrong, but that's that.

 

[Andrew02]

Evidently Sidereals wouldn't mind their demigod puppets - who ALREADY WENT INSANE EN MASSE AND WERE PUT DOWN VIOLENTLY - completely losing control of themselves for days at a time.

I never got that impression myself. Kether Rock's training (i.e. the Solar publicly getting his ass kicked on the first day) was formulated with the very fear that Solars would once more become the monsters of the First Age in mind. It's expressly mentioned as a fear.

 

[Joseph]

I assert that the downsides of the Charm are less destructive than you seem to think.  Evidently Sidereals wouldn't mind their demigod puppets - who ALREADY WENT INSANE EN MASSE AND WERE PUT DOWN VIOLENTLY - completely losing control of themselves for days at a time.

Well of course they clearly wouldn't in the canonical setting, given that's how it was written.


I'm obviously asserting they were written in a way here that is not consistent with the portrayal of them in other cases.  The Sidereal Gold Faction goal is to control the Solars sufficiently that they won't get out of control again.  To that extent, anything that significantly diminishes their control (and this Charm DOES do that, simply due to the fact that the side effects place them beyond ANYONE's control, even their own) SHOULD be viewed as dangerous by the Sidereals, not encouraged.


So far you've done nothing but say "nuh uh" in slightly more complicated ways to my arguments.  Until or unless you can somehow show it's in the Sidereal character to accept factors in a situation that they can't control when they COULD avoid those factors and still achieve their goals, you don't have an argument.  Either present a solid counterargument, or stop making a fool of yourself.

 

[Joseph]

Evidently Sidereals wouldn't mind their demigod puppets - who ALREADY WENT INSANE EN MASSE AND WERE PUT DOWN VIOLENTLY - completely losing control of themselves for days at a time.

I never got that impression myself. Kether Rock's training (i.e. the Solar publicly getting his ass kicked on the first day) was formulated with the very fear that Solars would once more become the monsters of the First Age in mind. It's expressly mentioned as a fear.

Valid, rational points don't really have an effect on someone who is making a counterintuitive assertion rather than an argument.  YOU know it's in the Sidereal character to fear factors that cause these problems, and *I* know that, but Memesis clearly does not, and I suspect nothing we can say will pierce his "nuh uh" barrier and cause him to understand why he's wrong.  Some people simply blindly defend ANYTHING White Wolf prints, and I suspect he is one of them based on his total lack of argumentation (other than, of course, claiming Sidereals clearly don't care if the Solars got out of control, because last time it happened it 'only' led to them being mass murdered).

 

[memesis]

YOU know it's in the Sidereal character to fear factors that cause these problems, and *I* know that, but Memesis clearly does not

Sidereals, p. 250:


"The Great Curse of the Sidereal Exalted is unlike that of any other type of Exalted.  It especially differs by not having firmly established mechanical and in-game effects."  ...  "The short form of its effects is that the Sidereal Exalts are blinded by a great hubris, rendering them completely incapable of adhering to their own wisdom at times when they should.  As a result, they often turn on the world, adhering anything else but their own firm opinions." ... "Always remember that while the Great Curse does not affect the Chosen individually, it is planted in all of them, but only surfaces when the Maidens' favored gather in larger groups."


Sound like any situation you know, blockhead?

I suspect he is one of them based on his total lack of argumentation (other than, of course, claiming Sidereals clearly don't care if the Solars got out of control, because last time it happened it 'only' led to them being mass murdered).

Clearly they don't, moron.  Their Great Curse LEADS THEM TO MONUMENTAL ACTS OF HUBRIS.  "Sure, we don't have to worry about a few going crazy!  We got it all under control!  This time."


This is totally in character for the Sidereals of the Gold Faction, if you consider the Great Curse (which I do).  If you don't, and your Sidereals act in rational fashions all the time without hindrance, I imagine we'd still be back in the First Age and everything would be hunky-dory.


Thanks for playing, try again.

 

[Andrew02]

Regardless of what the Sidereal fatsplat says, the Cult of the Illuminated is explicit in the fear of Solar recidivism.


Before I present some evidence directly from the book, consider merely the fact that the Sidereals have established a cult that idolizes the Solars as messiahs and saviours. Every mortal in the Cult an Illuminated Solar meets will treat said Solar with a kind of religious awe that I am very much convinced is only experienced by individuals the bulk of the population deems mentally unsound. These Solars have their divinity affirmed at every corner, in every experience.


But, because it is Sidereals who are behind this, we must know that it is all carefully managed and planned.


Anyway, book quotes!

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Lupo, however, feared Venerable Silk's approach would inevitably result in a return to the corruption that felled the First Age . . .."

[/QUOTE]
Golly, that looks like caring if the Solars got out of control!


Also, this is telling because is runs counter to the homogenous nature the Curse seems to enforce:

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Kai laughed quietly and denounced both Maduka Shin and Venerable Silk as unfit for leadership. He praised the efforts of a third less known member of the Gold Faction, suggesting a third option for a training method. The debate raged until Zhen Hue finally suggested a compromise. Rather than focus all of the Gold Faction resources into a single camp, they should construct three, each following a separate philosophy. [. . ..] to this day, tensions remain between the three schools [. . ..]"

[/QUOTE]
I guess the Gold Faction just isn't a big enough group for those monumental acts of hubris (i.e. one camp, because the Sidereals couldn't possibly fuck up training the Solars with the first method of training that popped into their heads)? I'm thinking if they felt the Great Curse as you assert they do, they would have just built the one camp and everything would be peachy. Like, Kether Rock Solars not thinking they're tougher and better than Tabernacle Solars.


Anyway, as I hope these quotes illustrate, both camps' philosophy has at is core PREVENTING Solars from getting out of control.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Venerable Silk, the founder of the Sequestered Tabernacle, understand the fundamental nature of Solars. Their power, he believes, stems from their towering sense of self. Any attempt to reform Solars by restraining their pride is doomed to failure, for it is as innate to their nature as heat is to flame. Rather than attempt to defeat their ego, Venerable Silk accepts it, encourages it, feeds it. [. . ..] By accepting their flaws as their strengths, he seeks to redirect their hubris from the decadence of the First Age to his personal vision of a glorious new era."

[/QUOTE]
I think that shows some small measure of concern over Solar recidivism . . . just a pinch . . . since the whole fucking training method is to keep them from going crazy again. Silk's worried, man. So worried that he believes hyper-indulgence is the only way to keep Solars from flying off the hook.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Maduka Shin knows that the decadence and corruption of the Solars brought the First Age to its final, bloody close. Any attempt to reinstate the old Realm that refuses to take this truth into account is doomed to failure. Intent on avoiding errors of the past, Maduka Shin has studied the history of the Solars, particularly their glorious heroism during the PRimordial War. Convinced that their decadence came from boredom, Maduka Shin is determined to constantly challenge the Solars of this Age, molding them through hardship and adversity.

[/QUOTE]
Speaks for itself, I would say. The reason Maduka Shin's school has the harshest training possible is because beating the shit out of the Solars is the only way to keep them from getting out of control. If they're focussed on overcoming obstacles, they will keep themselves in control because Solars always want to WIN.


Though, the elixir Lytek places in the purified water of the Solars mentioned on page MAY offer some evidence to your claim . . . but it seems very much like it is a very calculated risk. It is done in part because Sidereal instruction is simply not up to the task, and because its benefits in essence training must at least equal the heightening of the mood swings.

 

[memesis]

Regardless of what the Sidereal fatsplat says, the Cult of the Illuminated is explicit in the fear of Solar recidivism.

Be very careful here.  The Sidereal Curse does not outlaw clear thinking on the part of individuals, but does act when those individuals gather into groups and talk about their concerns.  Let's watch.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Lupo, however, feared Venerable Silk's approach would inevitably result in a return to the corruption that felled the First Age . . .."

[/QUOTE]
So far so good.  A single Sidereal is concerned.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Kai laughed quietly and denounced both Maduka Shin and Venerable Silk as unfit for leadership. He praised the efforts of a third less known member of the Gold Faction, suggesting a third option for a training method. The debate raged until Zhen Hue finally suggested a compromise. Rather than focus all of the Gold Faction resources into a single camp, they should construct three, each following a separate philosophy. [. . ..] to this day, tensions remain between the three schools [. . ..]"

[/QUOTE]
From Sidereals p. 250: "Also, this hubris often prompts them to divide at the worst probable time, causing huge rifts in Sidereal society."


The debate raged, tensions remain... still on the green as far as the Curse goes.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Venerable Silk, the founder of the Sequestered Tabernacle, understand the fundamental nature of Solars. Their power, he believes, stems from their towering sense of self. Any attempt to reform Solars by restraining their pride is doomed to failure, for it is as innate to their nature as heat is to flame. Rather than attempt to defeat their ego, Venerable Silk accepts it, encourages it, feeds it. [. . ..] By accepting their flaws as their strengths, he seeks to redirect their hubris from the decadence of the First Age to his personal vision of a glorious new era."

[/QUOTE]
By accepting their flaws as their strengths... like using berzerk anger and attendant brief periods of madness to fell armies?   Still looking good.

[QUOTE="Cult of the Illuminated]Maduka Shin knows that the decadence and corruption of the Solars brought the First Age to its final, bloody close. Any attempt to reinstate the old Realm that refuses to take this truth into account is doomed to failure. Intent on avoiding errors of the past, Maduka Shin has studied the history of the Solars, particularly their glorious heroism during the PRimordial War. Convinced that their decadence came from boredom, Maduka Shin is determined to constantly challenge the Solars of this Age, molding them through hardship and adversity.

[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it does speak for itself.


"Convinced that their decadence came from boredom" does not sound like a big concern about recurrences of madness. Does it sound that way to you?

 

[Andrew02]

If I was a jackass in my post before . . . sorry. It was uncalled for.

From Sidereals p. 250: "Also, this hubris often prompts them to divide at the worst probable time, causing huge rifts in Sidereal society."
The debate raged, tensions remain... still on the green as far as the Curse goes.

It seems so, though I do not believe the debate where the division occurred was at the worst probable time, nor did it cause huge rifts. Small rifts, but not huge ones. Maduka Shin isn't training her Solars to take over the other schools, and she's not plotting to kill Venerable Silk for the good of the cause.

By accepting their flaws as their strengths... like using berzerk anger and attendant brief periods of madness to fell armies?

Those flaws are not mentioned, and given that the pride and such like was . . . I'm thinking that's not what the book meant. The pride/hubris/arrogance, huge egos, the indulgence, the corruption, the disregard for mortal life, and so on seem more like what that passage refers to.

"Convinced that their decadence came from boredom" does not sound like a big concern about recurrences of madness. Does it sound that way to you?

When it motivated Maduka Shin to create her own school in a remote location deep in the Southern Desert that is three years of training that would kill mortal men and formulated around preventing the descent of the Solars into the decadence of the First Age, yes, it does sound like a big concern. All of the schools teach the way they do in an attempt to prevent the conditions that led to Solar corruption.


She's "intent on avoiding errors of the past." Errors like letting the Solars sit on their asses and delegate away all tasks while they did the Exalted equivalent of the rock'n'roll lifestyle in the Exalted over the top fashion.


How strong would the language have to be for you to believe the Sidereals care whether or not the Solars consistently suffer from Limit Breaks?

 

[memesis]

It seems so, though I do not believe the debate where the division occurred was at the worst probable time, nor did it cause huge rifts. Small rifts, but not huge ones. Maduka Shin isn't training her Solars to take over the other schools, and she's not plotting to kill Venerable Silk for the good of the cause.

SHE may not be.  Again, I'm looking at individual actions vs. collective actions, and the Curse really comes into play when groups act.


Further,

How strong would the language have to be for you to believe the Sidereals care whether or not the Solars consistently suffer from Limit Breaks?

I already believe that individual Sidereals can and do care about it.  What I am not convinced of (and what both Cult and Sidereals backs up quite nicely) is that they are capable of acting on those concerns in concert - in other words, while you might have all these individual guys saying "Solars going gonzo is bad", when they try to do something about it within the context of the Gold Faction, it WILL fall apart.


That is their Curse, and they will never, ever see it.  They will go into debates with arguments like "We need to prevent the Solars from going mad at all costs" and come out thinking "We can cure the Solars of their madness".  This is especially true if Lytek came by (in his quest to study and cure Limit Breaks, as described on p. 44) and hinted that letting them go berzerk was a useful way of 'restraining' them.

 

[Joseph]

blah blah blah over the course of several posts

Nothing you've said is even remotely related to anything I've argued, despite the fact that you've quoted incredibly selectively.


Fact: Sidereals want control.


Fact: If you want control, anything that is proven to take that control away will not be somethin you advise.


Fact: This Charm is proven to take control away from you.


Conclusion: No one interested in remaining in control would advise -- much less TEACH -- the use of this Charm.    There's no HUBRIS involved, there's no DISCUSSION involved; you can quote totally irrelevent passages all you care to, but no discussion on "Should we teach Solars this Charm," has EVER seen the light of day.


It's simple, easy logic -- no Gold Factioner would teach Solars this Charm, not with the history it SURELY has.  No amount of irrelevent quotation from an idiot such as yourself will change that simple logic.


Obviously, the books DO have them teaching it, however.  That's exactly what I've got a problem with, and another example of the shit that gets in the books now a days.  Teaching this Charm goes FUNDAMENTALLY AGAINST EVERYTHING THE SIDEREALS WORK FOR.  It's IN PRINCIPLE just plain stupid for them to do.  It's not something even hubris would justify, because it's just so damn simple.  


Argue otherwise all you like, but it just shows you're clearly as dumb as the author who added the Charm to that section to be honest.  No amount of irrelevent quotation about hubris will change that, because hubris doesn't equate to raw, illogical stupidity.  No amount of hubris will make you work DIRECTLY counter to your goals to no real benefit, period.

 

[memesis]

It's simple, easy logic -- no Gold Factioner would teach Solars this Charm, not with the history it SURELY has.  No amount of irrelevent quotation from an idiot such as yourself will change that simple logic.

Would you start paying attention, fuckwit?

Obviously, the books DO have them teaching it, however.   Teaching this Charm goes FUNDAMENTALLY AGAINST EVERYTHING THE SIDEREALS WORK FOR.

So clearly you are right, and all the developers are wrong.  Of course.  IT'S ALL CLEAR NOW.

because hubris doesn't equate to raw, illogical stupidity.  No amount of hubris will make you work DIRECTLY counter to your goals to no real benefit, period.

That's EXACTLY what hubris leads to, dimwit.  Hubris is "exaggerated pride or self-confidence".  You feel in control of the situation.  You see problems but don't think they apply to you.  Pretty much like your posting style, actually.  This whole conversation has been one big act of hubris on your part - "I'm right, the developers are smoking crack, the world is coming down except for the parts I hold up".  What next, you reveal that you're GUTB in disguise?


Please.  Grow up, reread the Sid book, and decide that maybe, just maybe, you're off base.  It really can happen, I promise.

 

[Andrew02]

What I am not convinced of (and what both Cult and Sidereals backs up quite nicely) is that they are capable of acting on those concerns in concert - in other words, while you might have all these individual guys saying "Solars going gonzo is bad", when they try to do something about it within the context of the Gold Faction, it WILL fall apart.

The Sidereals were capable of acting in concert in far larger numbers than the Gold Faction. That three-pronged prophecy that led to the Usurpation, for example, was all of the Sidereals acting together, as was the Usurpation (assuming I've got my facts straight). Establishing the Realm under the Scarlet Empress and imposing the Immaculate Philosophy was the Bronze Faction acting in concert. The Bronze Faction is larger in number than the Gold Faction, no?

all the developers are wrong.

It's so painfully possible I wish so dearly that you could see it.