Suicide

[NaomiKatyr]

I have a question about suicide.


A lot of the discussion I hear about suicide is that the person who commits it is selfish, for the are robbing the people who love them of themselves.


I am asking whether it is more selfish for those who love person A to ask them to stay living in a world and life they feel has no meaning or reason for them to stay, or if it is more selfish for person A to take their life regardless of what those who love them say and want.

 

[Melix]

It's selfish both ways, but at least on the families end it's selfish for the right reasons. Think: one side is being selfish trying to end lives (and yes, I realize I'll prolly get yelled at by the your-life-your-choice people) and the other is being selfish trying to preserve and save lives. Are they both being selfish by trying to have their way? Yes. Is one a better alternative to the other? Oh, yes.

 

[Drifter]

So what you are asking is as humans is it selfish to keep a person alive who doesn't feel like being alive? The key word here is 'FEEL' as feeling you don't want to be alive is a selfish response to not have to face being alive; compare this attitude to others who are struggling to 'LIVE' in famine, diseaes riddled & war torn countries, but don't have the means to survive; that pales in contrast of feelings that you 'Don't feel' like living. If you have parents have you ever thought of what the cost was to sustain a standard of living & keep a person alive? Parents pay for shelter, food, clothes & if their good parents invest in their children's emotional well being. If they aren't that good, but they have at least sustained you, suicide is still a slap in the face. It's like saying "everything you've invested in me is meaningless, so I am going to take it all away just so you can feel bad & see what you've done to me." So in that sense giving up emotionally is selfish. Now I do empathise with physical pain, that is so debilitating the continuance of life is too much (that however is not a FEELING, it is an actual physical ailment.) That is the only time that I believe suicide is not selfish." 
In other words a person can always change feelings, but physical ailments & circumstances you can't always change. It is selfish to not try and change, when so much good can benefit from that change.

 

[vixe]

What stupid is that bullies or whatever Driving them to kill them selves, It's sick that people would wanna die then be themsleves

 

[Kokino Hu]

I concur with Melix on this one, mostly. She's right in that both sides can be selfish, but there may be an exception to any rule, and I see an exception here. Some people don't understand just how taxing suicidal urges are on your mentality, and/or do not grasp that you will typically see suicide as the one and only way out. For instance, say I have no idea that the red light means stop. I drive right through despite said red light, thus endangering myself and probably more than a few other drivers. If I don't know what the red light means, me disobeying it isn't selfish.


Naive, yes. But I haven't any clue that I could hurt other people by ignoring that light. (Also, I wouldn't be driving a car if I didn't know what a red light means, although that's not the point.) By naively driving past a red light, I'm only doing what I think is most beneficial; whether it's beneficial to me, or to a friend I am picking up from work. I have no idea that I am causing anyone any harm. In nearly the same fashion, loads of people don't understand that suicidal urges are many times seen as a last resort, and they innocently assume it's nothing more than a very tragic, but absolutely most likely temporary mindset. They don't know any differently, and they're not selfish for thinking that way. It's a misunderstanding.


On the other hand, you have your people who see suicide as the easy trail out, which, although it's true in a sliver of a sense, is not commonly the main reason why people commit suicide. These people can be astonishingly mean to extremely depressed individuals, and their insensitivity can be harmful. I see this as at least a little bit selfish, because you're technically showing some rather brazen apathy to suicidal people without walking a mile in their shoes-- as I personally don't believe there are a lot of people who have ever felt honest to god suicidal urges is going to condemn others who have as well.


Also, there are suicidal folks who are honestly under the impression that no one cares about them; that no one would miss them. Some even believe from the bottom of their hearts that everyone they know would be pleased to not have to "deal with them" anymore.


(At this point, I would like to clear up that all of this is just my opinion. There's a quote that goes like, "Just because you think it doesn't mean you should believe it," and I feel like that's very much applicable here! I'm aware that I'm coming on pretty strong right now, but every single part of this is from a person who's barely even experienced depression. It's only what I've gathered from people I've met, so I'm probably much less reliable than some who may wholeheartedly disagree with me.)


I'll say it again: most people don't see suicide as one option of many, or as the easy way out. They see it as the single escape route. My mom had a friend who committed suicide a few years ago, actually. This woman hadn't exactly lived world's best life. Her father left, I believe, her mother committed suicide herself, and she ended up living with her grandparents, who later broke off all contact with her if I'm not mistaken. She made lots of friends and accepted years of professional help, but eventually she overdosed on pills. In her eyes, I think, she'd exhausted all of her other options and her energy, and so she just ended up giving up. I can say with almost total certainty that she thought that, since nothing was convincing her to keep on going, she saw suicide as her one way ticket out of depression. I really believe she thought it was her last resort.


So, is suicide selfish? Yes, it can be in many, many circumstances. But it also can just a little bit selfish to ask these people to stick around when all they really want--and feel like they need--to do is leave. Suicide is very complicated, so every case is grimly unique.


So, is it selfish, then? It really depends. But honestly, I feel like selfishness, or anything relating or similar to selfishness, is one of the last things on most people's minds when it comes to suicide. It's not a major factor or component, selfishness.

 

[Mitheral]

Uhm ... if you don't know what that red light means, you have no business being behind the steering wheel.... Just sayin'. And if you don't know the danger you are placing yourself, that isn't suicidal urge. Self destructive? Sure. But it is just a case of a malfunctioning brain - neither selfish nor selfless.


So sticking with suicide by reason of depression - far more common - and what most people think of when entering this discussion, Suicide is NOT SELFISH - unless intended to cause others pain and grief - which is insanity. Suicide is SELFLESS. It stems from the inability to see value in oneself.


As to person A not wanting someone to go and end their lives. That is selfish and I applaud that notion. I am pretty damned selfish and proud of it. I'd stop a complete stranger from ending their lives and not give it a second thought. I just left them with a ray of hope and that leaves me feeling pretty darned good.


I have walked the mile in those shoes - nearly 40 years ago - as a teenager. But every time it got right down to it, I always reasoned things out. If it can't get any worse, it can only get better. Eventually I found a better way out and never looked back. Things got better.


If anyone reading this has those dark thoughts find someone to talk to. Anyone who has suggestions for alternatives to ones own death - that doesn't include doing something morally wrong. Start there and it gets better.

 

[Kokino Hu]

Uhm ... if you don't know what that red light means, you have no business being behind the steering wheel.... Just sayin'. And if you don't know the danger you are placing yourself, that isn't suicidal urge. Self destructive? Sure. But it is just a case of a malfunctioning brain - neither selfish nor selfless.
So sticking with suicide by reason of depression - far more common - and what most people think of when entering this discussion, Suicide is NOT SELFISH - unless intended to cause others pain and grief - which is insanity. Suicide is SELFLESS. It stems from the inability to see value in oneself.


As to person A not wanting someone to go and end their lives. That is selfish and I applaud that notion. I am pretty damned selfish and proud of it. I'd stop a complete stranger from ending their lives and not give it a second thought. I just left them with a ray of hope and that leaves me feeling pretty darned good.


I have walked the mile in those shoes - nearly 40 years ago - as a teenager. But every time it got right down to it, I always reasoned things out. If it can't get any worse, it can only get better. Eventually I found a better way out and never looked back. Things got better.


If anyone reading this has those dark thoughts find someone to talk to. Anyone who has suggestions for alternatives to ones own death - that doesn't include doing something morally wrong. Start there and it gets better.

I'm aware of that. I was using the red light bit as a comparison--a poor one, maybe, but not something to be taken literally as in, "This person should not be driving"--and I didn't use it for suicidal people. I used it for non-suicidal people who assume as benevolently as they can they suicide is not a serious issue. Sorry; that part was as badly written as any piece of trash, so I apologize for the misunderstanding. (If indeed I'm not the one misunderstanding you here, that is.)


And for clarity's sake, I don't blame or think badly f anyone who wants to commit suicide. Mental illnesses always get shorted, which is probably because people cannot physically see them, and so there are a lot of people who actually have trouble finding help because no one gets it. I do feel that it's selfish to commit suicide, as you're disregarding your loved ones (although really, you might not even be thinking about your worth to them due to a mental illness of yours), but suicidal people aren't to be blamed or judged. It's depression, I know, for an overwhelming percent of the time.


As for the rest of your argument, I'll just throw it out there that I can respect it completely, and also back out of this thread. I do have more to say, but I honestly don't have the motivation to digress, and anyways I'd rather not further risk starting any fights since I know this is a topic very near and dear to a lot of people. Agree to disagree. But I applaud you for being so understanding and empathetic towards the suicidal; those things ought to be the usual attitude for this.

 

[Drifter]

At Mitheral, I believe the correct definition of selfish is to take a stand, action, or belief that does not take into consideration of other peoples feelings, needs or desires. In that sense yes, suicide is selfish in the sense that it only takes into consideration the welfare of them-self at the moment it is occurring. Self-less is absolutely the opposite as it takes into consideration of the of needs, beliefs and desire of others without considering self-loss or gain. So at first glance it may seem that self-less may fit the definition of suicidal, except the portion of the definition that says no consideration of self (which means one is too busy acting upon the needs of others to evaluate ones own self). Usually though a self-less person has a perception of the dynamics of individual needs of others, thus stating my emotions are less significant then the need at hand.


Can a selfless person be selfless in some aspects and selfish in another sure. Sure as a matter of fact being selfless can be destructive without self value, *(ever meet those people who do something for everybody else but forget to take care of themselves) < There is a huge difference between that and suicidal.


first off I agree with Mitheral that smeone who feels suicidal should definitely seek counciling, and that requires the self-awareness of the thought of what you are about to do is selfish. To break that momentarily self-centered emotion, one has to have courage to admit to them-self "Yes I need help".


Now to what you have replied Kokinu Hu, I must first say that I am the last person that anybody should ask counseling from. I have taken psych and anthro but the knowledge from it is tempered with the school of hard-knocks. I want you to consider this, in our ancestral past when human beings had to work together to survive, they were too busy surviving raids, harsh winters and the farming seasons to have time to even think about killing themselves. While there was suicide it was not like an epidemic that it is today. After all the average age of survival did not exceed 30 (lack of inoculation) and still-born deaths guaranteed that every daughter and son was needed to survive.


So where does this epidemic of suicide come from? it comes from two sources. It is psychologically proven that the average child is assaulted with millions of ads on self-image even before the age of 7. At that the mass media is replicating nations of self-centered narcissistic people (with negative as well as positive self-esteem). Haven't you ever heard that old line, "She was soo beautiful and had everything she needed, why in the hell did she commit suicide?" The second source of suicide is linked to the law of conformity. We are social creatures good or bad so we try to fit the groups ideals. With a generation of people raised on mass media, society tends to create shallow and selfish people who think things are entitled to them. The Young generation of 90's babies see what the 80's had brought without the consequences of what we are doing to others and the environment.


So yeah while the source maybe unconscious, the underlying theme is that mass media and conformity has undermined the survival instinct.

 

[Mitheral]

Selfish -


1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others


2 : arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>


3 : being an actively replicating repetitive sequence of nucleic acid that serves no known function <selfish DNA>; also :being genetic material solely concerned with its own replication <selfish genes>


Selfless


having no concern for self

 

[Drifter]

Pay particular attention to definition 1 in the Merriam dictionary there is an "OR" where you have ":"


1: concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself OR seeking or concentrating on ones own advantage.


Definition of selfless is incomplete.


http://www.wikihow.com/Be-Selfless

 

[Mitheral]

I used Webster's. It was complete. Another "or" is just bad grammar - following the same rules as multiple "and's". Just ask any English teacher.

 

[Drifter]

I partially copied yours there's only one or in the Merriam Websters definition. Oh well we each have our viewpoints, disagree agreeably I guess.


In the Wiki how it makes a couple good points


1. it says that one who is willing to be self-less is more of a genuine selflessness, and two it is most effective when you have concern for yourself. in psych-terms unless you have the ability to care about yourself and use that as a measurement to help others acting selfless is not in sincerety (more of an indentured servant).


2. in psych terms- self loathing, pity, and poor self-evaluation is a self-esteem assessment, not selflessness, because the assessment itself is full of self. now these assessments aren't always us as sometimes the way we are treated by others can push the self button (bullying, verbal abuse etc), but the choice is always ours. Some individuals come out of horrendous things in life and never think of suicide.


^ majority of suicidal tendencies come from the media and group pressure model. there is a percentage of chemical and psychosis induced suicides, BUT the media/group pressure model is usually the trigger. (Most people don't know this but there is a 50% chance most of us can carry a gene such as schizophrenia and never even trigger that gene, except in cases of environmental and group induced triggers).

 

[Mitheral]

Perhaps you should listen to the folks of Suicide.org. Their website addresses this specific subject.


http://www.suicide.org/suicide-is-not-a-selfish-act.html

 

[Quill]

I think it can be selfishness either way, but I think it's really, really rare for selfishness to play more than a very minor role.


Most suicidal people, as far as I understand them, consider themselves worthless. Life is pointless because they are depressed and can't find a way out. They consider themselves useless. As such, taking their life is perhaps in hope of relief, or just to prove to the world that they have options, or to finally make it feel like people care about them. These are not selfish motives because the person isn't valuing themselves. These are motives spurred by their inability or difficulty to love themselves. Some people hurt themselves in part to get attention, but this sort of selfishness is rarely intended to be inconsiderate towards others. They're so alone they need pain to make them feel something. It's a self-defense / coping mechanism, flawed as it may be, but the average depressed person is unlikely to even be aware that others care about them or wouldn't want them to die.


As for the family … is it really selfishness to want to preserve something that isn't yours to save? If your friend owns a lovely pet and decides to abandon it even though you would have taken loving care of it and never neglected it, is it selfish of you to be upset with your friend for mistreating a living thing and to wish you'd have had control over it so you may have offered it a happier life? Most people who value their own life have difficulty understanding why someone else would treat their own life callously, and may yearn to stop the other person from harming themselves because they want all life to be respected and loved. Is that selfish? It seems more like sympathy and misunderstanding to me. We cannot make choices for other people, we cannot force other people to change. They have to do these things of their own volition. In most healthy and decent people, failing to understand that tenet of psychology is due to empathy and wanting to make things better for the other person, rather than selfishly wanting to manipulate them.

 

[Mitheral]

Yes, it is selfish to want something. The problem that people attach negative connotations to the word selfish. Selfish is wanting something that makes you feel better - or wanting things not to change (as happens when someone close dies) to avoid pain. Nothing wrong with it.


Greed is another matter.

 

[Quill]

Actually, the dictionary defines selfish (adj) as "(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure" and greed as "intense and selfish desire for something, esp. wealth, power, or food". I think you may be confusing selfishness and greed. I'm not being selfish if I want a glass of water. But I'd be selfish if I wanted my friend's birthday cake all for myself. What I'm saying is that a suicidal person may not have enough self-worth to be selfish, to prioritize themselves in front of others' wants and needs, or to realize harming themselves may bother or harm others.

 

[Mitheral]

I literally copied Websters on the last page here. I did not define Greed; just said it was another matter.


From Webster's


Greed: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed


Now about that friend's birthday cake example, if you are going to honestly tell me that you need to eat the whole thing ...:wink:


Maybe it was just one of those cupcakes with a single candle in it?

 

[Quill]

Sure, I just disagree that it's inherently selfish to want something. Selfishness requires a certain amount of egotism or inconsiderate behavior. It's not egotistical or inconsiderate if you see yourself as worthless or undeserving.

 

[Mitheral]

This is getting off topic. Go back and re-read the definition, specifically number 1, of Selfish.


1 : concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others


Others do not enter the equation when you want something. If they do, then that becomes a degree of selflessness ... or feelings of guilt. If I want something, then I simply want it. A is A. Nothing wrong with the fact. It is egoism, not egotism. (Note the differences in spelling.)

 

[Quill]

I was using the word egotism because I wasn't talking about an ethical theory about moral conduct, but rather a sense of self-importance or arrogance. I was not using the term incorrectly. I disagree that we are going off topic simply because we interpret definitions differently. We both know each other to have quoted the definition of selfishness, so I see no reason to order me to consider again a definition that we both deem equally true and accurate. I still think you're confusing wanting something as being inherently selfish. I disagree. The dictionary definition of want is "to have a desire to possess (or do) something". You say here that:

"Others do not enter the equation when you want something. If they do, then that becomes a degree of selflessness ... or feelings of guilt. If I want something, then I simply want it. A is A. Nothing wrong with the fact. It is egoism"

However, I disagree that wanting inherently means not considering others. That would be selfish. I could want world peace. I could want to make my sister happy. I could want to sleep. I could want the best for my love, even if it means supporting their love for someone else. These things are not self-serving, they consider other's wants and needs. If I go to sleep in the middle of a seminar, yes, then that would be inconsiderate. I can't see why going to sleep at night in my own room would be concering myself excessively or exclusively with myself, or seeking or concentrating on my own advantage, pleasure, or well-being, without regard for others.


Others can enter the equation when you want something. Sometimes you want things for others, even if they're bad for you. I think that avoiding selfish behavior is typically due to selflessness or guilt, but again, I disagree that every want you could possibly have is innately selfish. And I do no think the want to die is selfish, either.