Stacking artifacts and hearthstones

[Sherwood]

If you come across two different Manses with the same hearthstone, do the effects of the two stones add to each other? For example, a Earth Manse gives you a bonus of +2 to any Resistance rolls. So, if you had two of those stones, would you have a +2 or a +4? Plus, with a higher level Manse, you can take a level 3 Manse and have it make three level one stones. If you had it make three of the same stone, would they add to each other? The same with artifacts.


What say you?

 

[wordman]

Whatever the rules say, the result of letting them stack would be that trinkets and toys would become very important to the campaign, whereas using a rule like "only the highest bonus applies" would result in a campaign where toys are far less important than the person using them. What sounds like more fun to you? Run that way.

 

[Brickwall]

Manses normally can't split hearthstone levels. There are a couple special exceptions, but when it happens, they're not supposed to be held by the same person, and probably shouldn't stack.


Hearthstones from different manses should stack. Players should rarely, if ever, have enough hearthstone slots for this to be terribly unbalancing. If they try to go overboard with hearthstone slots and cheap manses with small, but useful bonuses, then you should alter this.

 

[Sherwood]

Hmmm. I believe that I have seen in Oadenol's Codex that a level 2 and higher manse can split their stones up into several smaller ones, but I don't remember seeing anything about it being restricted to only certain special occations/locations. Once I get back home (I'm posting from school at the moment) I'll have to check up on that.

 

[Brickwall]

The only example is the Gemstones of Synchronicity, which really give no benefit unless divided among multiple people. All it says is that "some manses are designed to divide their power between two or more hearthstones". I think it'd be entirely ridiculous for that to be indiscriminate.

 

[wordman]

First Edition had no issue with multiple hearthstones for a manse. See Savant & Sorcerer, pg. 66: "...a Manse either produces a single Hearthstone at the same level as the Manse or multiple Hearthstones that, combined, are equal in level to the Manse." A rating 4 manse could produce two rating 2 stones, or four rating 1 stones, or whatever. The manse in Forgotten Suns did this. Never caused me any problems.

 

[Brickwall]

Bah. That's like growing a tree that bears apples and oranges. Except more ridiculous.

 

[Kyeudo]

Bah. That's like growing a tree that bears apples and oranges. Except more ridiculous.

A Solar probably developed a tree that grows pineapples and pears during the First Age, so why complain about multi-hearthstone manses?

 

[Ker'ion]

Because this is an internet message board.


He has the right to disagree.


And we have the right to read in the rules that his disagreement is not canon. :twisted:

 

[Quchu]

The design of the manse could have been deliberately placed in order to cut up the geomantic flow of the demesne as to simulate the effects of two separate manses.

 

[Kyeudo]

Which would also help explain how the First Age could power so many different pieces of magitech without running out of hearthstones to go around.

 

[Ker'ion]

I thought Arcanobezoars and Essence Capacitors helped with that as well.

 

[Virjigorm]

The best way to go is to decide how you like it and run it that way.


however...


In my opinion, the 1 to 5 dot system used to rate everything makes each level of Manse, Artifact, Hearthstone, whatever orders of magnitude more powerful than the one before. As such, the power levels are set up to reflect constructs and flows of essence that grant bonuses scaled that way. If you have a stone that makes your skin hard as the eternal ice of the far north, would two of those make it as hard as two eternal ices? Probably not. However, if a higher level stone from a similar manse let you summon superheavy plate formed of eternal ice, you'd get a better soak bonus.


My way of thinking is that no two effects that do the same thing the same way can stack. The same action can get two bonuses in different ways, however(like a Solar stone that gives you holy awe-inspiring grace [+2 Presence, Performance, and Socialize] and a Lunar stone that lets you discern people's feelings [+2 to Charisma rolls]). Even the same Ability could benefit from two stones if they worked in different ways. A stone that gives a bonus to medicine by making the work area sterile to prevent infection(+1) would stack with one that can be used like a magnifying glass to peer inside the body(+3).


Another factor is the uniqueness of manses and demenses. I believe that no two manses should be exactly the same. They are each a unique expression of their Essence and should make unique stones. Low level (1-2 dot)elemental-aspect manses can have stones that are the same in function, but as the manse level goes up, so does the uniqueness, since so many more factors of geomancy become available.


As far as multiple hearthstones, I think it's fine to split the power up, since you give up some potency in the conversion. Five 1-dot hearthstones are nowhere near the power level of a single 5 dot stone. The more you split it up, the more you dilute the power. I think having a manse that makes a stone for each member of your circle is a cool idea, if you don't mind sharing...

 

[wordman]

I think having a manse that makes a stone for each member of your circle is a cool idea, if you don't mind sharing...

That was the reason I wrote Forgotten Suns that way: to share the spoils (particularly since it is an introductory adventure).

 

[Dracogryff]

Canonically, there is even a manse that makes multiple hearthstones...though they are all the same stone. Gemstones of Synchronocity. They're in Oadenol's Codex, p. 89.

 

[Sherwood]

When designing the abilities of a Manse from the ground up, if the builder opts to have a lower level stone made, he or she then can transfer that extra Essence to power something inside the Manse. So, you can take a level 4 Manse and have it make a level 2 stone, but have some extra goodies of stuff like magical defenses and automations.


I do like the idea of having a Manse with multiple stones for a Circle of Exalts to let them all tap into the effects of the Essence flow.


But, back to my earlier question. When looking at a level one stone like the Jewel of the Flying Heart, instead of getting two manses to pop out a stone that duplicate the effects to have two, what about making a level two version of a level one stone? Would you allow a player to write up a custom artifact/hearthstone that is a dot or two higher than the book version with a increase in power?

 

[Virjigorm]

Mainbook artifacts pretty much follow the Codex rules for artifact creation, so you can use those.


For stones, a good rule of thumb is to think of their power as a charm. If it were a charm, what would the minimum Essence be? There's your Manse level needed to produce it.

But, back to my earlier question. When looking at a level one stone like the Jewel of the Flying Heart, instead of getting two manses to pop out a stone that duplicate the effects to have two, what about making a level two version of a level one stone? Would you allow a player to write up a custom artifact/hearthstone that is a dot or two higher than the book version with a increase in power?

I don't really understand the first part of that. Are you trying to get 2 Jewels of the Flying Heart or just trying to get it's bonus twice?


If you are trying to get two stones, you need two manses of lvl 1 or one manse of lvl 2 and split into two hearthstones of lvl 1 each. If you want to get two so you can have the same bonus twice, check out my earlier post.


As far as custom items, absolutely I'd allow it. If they have a demense powerful enough and know how to cap it, let them build their manse as per the normal rules and design their stone. If they are putting it together at character creation, get a good explanation of the manse design and reasoning for the stone's powers. The only real limit is that you can't make a stone with a dot rating higher than the manse that generated it.


As far as artifacts go, I encourage players to design their own and they usually end up being more interesting than most published items. Like I said earlier, the published stuff mostly follows the rules, so expanding on mainbook artifacts is pretty simple if you have Odaenol's Codex.

 

[Sherwood]

Hmm. Perhaps I was not as clear as I thought. I like the effects of that particular stone, and I'm looking for more ways to increase the DV of a character instead of focusing on massive amounts of armor to survive. So, I was pondering the thought of, "What if I had two of these stones? Would the effects add to each other?" Then, as the discussion progressed, I wondered, what kind of write up would a level two version of that stone be? Or a level 3 stone?

 

[Kevin Warner]

Well in the artifact creation it gives you ideas on what a = level item could have as maximums on a stat / skill.


Depending on how your game is run can take diffrent items that give dv, we have it set to where u cannot stack the same item. But diffrent items that give you a benefit would work. So to the DV question, Raptor wings, hearthstone bracers, Thunderbolt shield, quicksilver aegis talismen, phoenix pinions, flying heart gem, *i think essence shield* to list a few.

 

[Lochar]

If you come across two different Manses with the same hearthstone, do the effects of the two stones add to each other? For example, a Earth Manse gives you a bonus of +2 to any Resistance rolls. So, if you had two of those stones, would you have a +2 or a +4? Plus, with a higher level Manse, you can take a level 3 Manse and have it make three level one stones. If you had it make three of the same stone, would they add to each other? The same with artifacts.
What say you?

The same manse stones will not stack. I'm going to make a very obvious point with less than 50 XP.


Wyld Shaping/Wyld Cauldron/Solar Sorcery.


I'll create a few dozen Solar demenses in the bordermarches and then drop Solar Sanctuary and cap them all at once, getting all their hearthstones.


What hearthstone you ask? Seven Leaping Dragons, of course. +4 to all MA rolls. If they stack, I'm going to be making hearthstone rhinestone pants.


If you want to stack effects, that's fine. Make them need to come from distinct different sources. You can have two or three different DV increasing hearthstones, but one needs to be air, one needs to be Sidereal, one needs to be Solar. And each needs to have it's own flavor of WHY.


Same thing with artifacts. Not letting you have three copies of hearthstone bracers, one at your wrists, one on your ankles, and one on your biceps.

 

[Incendius]

This is an praiseworthy act of necromancy .


The 2.5 errata explicitly addresses this. Bonuses from equipment do not stack. If you have a Seven Leaping Dragon stone, its accuracy bonus doesn't stack with the Orichalcum magical material bonus, and it certainly doesn't stack with another Seven Leaping Dragon stone

 

[Lochar]

lol. I didn't even pay attention to the original thread post date. It was just at the top of the most recently updated posts, and I knew the thread starter.

 

[gatherer818]

This is an praiseworthy act of necromancy .
The 2.5 errata explicitly addresses this. Bonuses from equipment do not stack. If you have a Seven Leaping Dragon stone, its accuracy bonus doesn't stack with the Orichalcum magical material bonus, and it certainly doesn't stack with another Seven Leaping Dragon stone

I'd be loath to include hearthstones in that, or at least I'd count them as a separate category. And if you need a reason why...


Orichalcum God-Kicking Boot is Accuracy +3. 7LDS would then give.. +1? What about exceptional tiger claws? They're not even Artifacts and are Accuracy +3! "I'm sorry, your super-martial-arts enchantment that draws magic from an entire magical valley doesn't apply because your weapon is too well-made." I'd treat the hearthstone as an entirely separate thing. There are many more interesting things the player could have done with the stone, but essentially obsolete'ing a stone that was previously considered one of the best in the game (so much so the errata had to call it out specifically as "we still feel this is ok") for any armed combatant is a bit much.


(That said, making a lower-level version of the 7LDS that ONLY applied when the user was actually unarmed would be fairly cool...)

 

[Incendius]

No, no. The accuracy of a weapon is its base accuracy, it does not count as an equipment bonus. (Otherwise you get ridiculous things like the Orichalcum bonus being useless for a whole swatch of weapons).


If you had a 7LDS, your God-Kicking boots would have +5 Accuracy (+1 for Baseline, +4 for 7LDS)


If you had artifact razor claws, you now have +7 accuracy (+3 baseline, +4 stone). That is a huge benefit over the Exceptional Tiger Claws. Check out this link. It'll show you how much 4 dice of accuracy actually matters. At 16/20 dice, you go from a 22% probability to hit DV 10, to a 55% probability to hit DV 10. That is the difference between being steamrolled by an opponent or by actually having an equal chance at hitting them.


You are really really underestimating how powerful even a single +1 accuracy bonus is. At the high end of Exalted combat, every single bonus matters tremendously. The 7LDS is still one of the best hearthstones in the game, it just doesn't stack with accuracy bonuses from other things, such as again, the Orichalcum Magical Material bonus. I would take the thing in a heartbeat, always, anytime.

 

[Ker'ion]

Hmm...


So according to the Bonus Stacking section of the errata, bonuses from equipment do not stack, such as a Jade Daiklave and Jade Hearthstone Bracers or armor and a magic girdle.


I see nothing saying Hearthstones don't stack with Artifacts and see no reason (in or out of the published material) why they shouldn't.


Hearthstones shouldn't stack with each other, unless there are different reasons why each Hearthstone gives you the bonus.


A Hearthstone that adds to your Alertness due to being able to see out of the eyes of any creature near you might stack with one that adds to your Awareness through the bonus of an extra sense that allows you to notice the flows of Essence around you.