Video Games Reflecting on Waifu Emblem's Good and Bad for Lulz (FE 13 & 14 discussion)

[Count Gensokyo]

@SirBlazeALot

I was stalking you to try and find the RP which has...disappeared off the face of the planet? D:
But I found a huge ass FE rant instead so let me -flexes knuckles-

In all honesty I'm one of those people on the Fates salt train so I was curious to hear your opinions on it since I know you love it and you're not coming from the 3DS gen. I think for me it came down to the fact that I overhyped the game (and let's be fair it's flipping ambitious as fkk so how can you not overhype?) so when I play it all I can think about is "hot damn if only they had done x, y, z" this game would blow minds.

In the end I'm divided because I like the godlike powers of the Waifu Emblem being able to ship characters (though I want even more godlike powers because you can't dangle hella lesbians and hella gays in front of me and expect them to suddenly turn straight for someone over pies no pies in Fates but still). At the same time I honestly think the quality of the Supports suffers from it. I understand that writing 700 flippity fracking Support conversations is crazy and hard and ridiculous buuuut if you can't write 700 interesting conversations chop it down to 300 and make them count? Awakening had this problem too but even they were more selective, while Fates it felt like they were being overly ambitious like with the whole game. For me seeing the same exact sequence of events in every Support makes the characters actually feel flatter, because I get the sneaking suspicion that there is literally nothing more to them than the 2D surface of -insert 1 trope here-. Awakening's Supports tended to have more surprises for me, while Fates even when I paired up people who couldn't be more different or should have some kind of tension or interest it rarely delivered. Like I feel as if some of these characters are dropped to have interesting sides to them, such as Ryoma's dark side and Xander's insecurities, which should be developed through Supports, but rarely is. Another thing that my friend pointed out is that the kids in Fates are all more or less copies / derivatives of their parents (or copies from another game!). Like Dwyer is lazy Jacob, Percy is smoll Arthur, Shigure is Rule 63 Azura. Especially because they grew up never knowing their child parents the kids shouldn't be influenced by them so strongly. In Awakening the kids were allowed to be their own people and felt more realized that way, like actual individuals that would result in growing up with this type of family, but Fates it's like...they got......lazy Also don't get me started on Heirs of Fate

Though I'm of the same mind where, like, I'm a first genner and the child characters always kind of squicked me out because seeing kids with kids just made me think of myself suddenly have a grown ass child and that was freaky. But in Awakening it was done in a really touching way and ngl I teared up at a good portion of those parent/child Supports. While in Fates....well, I think we can all agree alternate dimension daycare was the biggest bullsht to ever be bulled and led to all kinds of cringey plot holes and things I never wanted to ever think about like having a kid with a 10 year old in the middle of a god damn war....

And I know FE doesn't need a perfect story. I'm perfectly fine with the stories in all the other games I've played. Even though I love FE4/5 to pieces and the Game of Thrones level political shenanigans and the middle age level darkness those stories are at their heart simple, just executed really well. And Awakening's story was a hot god damn mess but I still love that game. In my heart I can't honestly understand why I'm so much more fond of Awakening than Fates wait JK I totally understand I just don't want to admit it to myself. But when you hire on a writer specifically to improve the story and then leave us with so much lackluster dialogue and gaping plot holes and unanswered questions and moments every level where I'm going "what the actual f***?" to my DS, it kind of ruins the immersive experience which is at the heart of an RPG. >,>>''

Also never forget how they advertised Fates as this big "what if" game where decisions mattered and bla bla...I think the only real "decisions" in the game is which one to buy and whether or not to let Kaze and Shura die which, spoiler alert, you shouldn't >,>. Again I'm divided because Awakening the choices didn't matter jack diddle which is kind of...strange, considering it is a game literally centered around the theme of ~destiny~ but there were some really hard ass choices you're faced with. Would have liked to see hard ass choices + follow through....maybe one day...

The Avatar thing doesn't bother me as much because I actually....like...Robin.....and I think both Robin and Corn have their flavors which makes them individuals. I would, however, much prefer, like you said, either dropping the pretense of self-insert when you don't really control the character in favor of sharpening those individual flavors or delving deeper into Visual Novel Emblem which a lot of old fans would spear me for but fkk I like Visual Novels and think they can be incorporated into RPGs quite excellently. So I'm cool with Robin, I think he had his own personality, and personally I'm not a huge projector to begin with so the distance didn't phase me, and they struck a good balance between Robin's story and Chrom's. Corn on the other hand....what gets my goose about Corn is how fkkn obsessed with him every single fkkn character in the game is for seemingly no reason. At his core I like that he's a stupid idealistic sunshine child raised in a dungeon but what would have sold it for me was actually seeing retribution for his dumb sunshine child actions so that he could actually grow as a character rather than passively angsting and becoming the Mofo Right Hand of Darkness (in Conquest at least). I think it would have upped the impact of the (honestly tragic) final scenes of the two unhappy games, like the final inevitable sacrifice of a long and hard struggle rather than just one easily avoided price. Retribution either as more scripted deaths or betrayals...idk. Just not, "Wow! Corn! You just killed my entire family, but you're so perfect let's wrestle in oil!" There were too many Cornsexuals not just with the Support limitations (which yeah wtf couldn't Reina Support with Yukimura or Orochi and why not Scarlet x Ryouma? It would have been so cool!!), but with characters who "hated" everyone else and existed only to please Corn. Though I think 90% of Fates characters had that exact same problem with not just Corn but all the other siblings because of the endless retainers which, unfortunately, had very little variation in their motivations / origins unless they were stealing from another game.

Also I hate what they did to magic in Fates and the shitty shit shit hit rates. I've had to restart more levels due to a character not hitting when they had over 80% accuracy than any man should ever have to....
However I am digging the loss of weapon fatigue and how they attempted to balance that out with buffs instead, though it certainly isn't perfect and I'm hoping?? the mechanic will continue to be defined in Valencia rather than just exp whatever the original had (though it definitely looks like they are building on the original and fkk I'm so excited holy sushi I--).

I will say that I'm one of maybe 2 people on this entire planet that prefers Conquest to Birthright (for more than purely gameplay). I understand why people hate it and think it's a hot mess, but at least it's interesting. I was happy to see them doing new stuff while Hoshido bored me half the time because they were just TOO GOOD staring at that game blinds me Hoshido is so light I'm also biased because I like the entire cast of Nohr better sorry Japan. Though I also think Hoshido had the better ending and I'll never forgive Azura for her dumbass stupid spoiler plan in Conquest I'll never forgive Azura for a lot of things but that's not important now.
Fate is also the most gorgeous game I've ever seen on the 3DS, the cutscene, overworld, and battle animations are all friggin amazing, and also it has a beautiful interface which I'm hoping carries into future games, especially with FE Console coming back. I also hella dig the music though I wish it had been a little more flavored between the games.

So I don't hate Fates and I had fun playing all three flipping games but it was a huge letdown for me in many respects. It baffles the mind that people can come in with Fates as their first FE and love it, but you know, if it gets us nice goods like Valencia I'm not complaining. Not at all.

Also



Actually if you marry Niles you don't get ether Eponine or Kanna because gay units don't deserve kids. I hacked my game to up the power level on the Waifu Emblem and like, the gays = don't get kids mechanic is literally hardwired into the game wtf. I mean baby steps but it still annoyed me, especially with their ending I think it's implied they set up an orphanage Lucius style so like major missed opportunity there lmao.

I loved both Reina and Scarlet so I never noticed the imbalance but......that is kind of sad.

Holy shit this got so long.
I have a problem with fan boy flapping when it comes to FE.

tl;dr

Fates did nothing wrong

 

[IG42]

And this is what happens when you go up against the top waifu.

 

[Count Gensokyo]

And this is what happens when you go up against the top waifu.

I was on a losing team in every round.
Elise will always be a winner to me.

 

[IG42]

I was on a losing team in every round.
Elise will always be a winner to me.

Got to steamroll Leo and Chrom before getting buried in the final, still only got around 2k hero feathers, now if I could do it another ten times and savaged the training tower for another four hours I'd have enough to rank up a 4 star.

 

[Reinhardt]

still only got around 2k hero feathers, now if I could do it another ten times and savaged the training tower for another four hours I'd have enough to rank up a 4 star.

20k feather requirement lul

 

[Khadame]

This is what is known as an alternative fact.


Fair enough but on the opposite end, Elise is nice to you all throughout Birthright too, you totally should feel guilty for attacking Sakura and really any of the siblings in any path. But especially Conquest because guilt is one of Conquest's themes. Leo's super reasonable in Birthright even though you gotta fight him a bit, but ya gotta fight all the siblings a bit. And Takumi is a dick in both pathways. He's the only royal sibling who is and he's Hoshidan. And in Conquest, Ryoma pulled a super dick move when Elise was sick. No spoils but seriously, his actions in that Chapter showed he's no angel.

But aside from each side being portrayed as fairly even in terms of morality, I think the best thing about Conquest is that they aren't presented overtly as the heroes. That's what makes them interesting. Once you know and understand their motives, it's very easy to see them as the good guys. Having that overt contrast and the subtle hints that there's more under the surface is what makes Nohr great imo.

I would say it's a bit less the siblings; more everything else that surrounds them. The entire atmosphere of Nohr is dark and murky, like the difference between the Nohrian Hain and the Hoshidan Hain you can set up in MyCastle. The Nohrian one is just dead trees, Hoshido in full bloom. Other Nohr accessiores feature, for example, a grave. The Nohr soldiers were portrayed as being heartless bastards apparently, seeing as they were killing and slaughtering an entire village without a peep. Especially because some of the more important figures - Hans and Garon's shitty sidekick I can't remember the name of - are portrayed as irredeemably evil. Though the writers attempted making it more of a grey somewhere, they probably miserably failed and took a really, really dark shade of grey instead. This is likely bad writing and Hoshido-bias both.

why not Scarlet x Ryouma?

Yes god please why. There's a hack that adds this conversation into the game, but what a goddamn shame they didn't think of it.

 

[Pretzel Heart]

Yes god please why. There's a hack that adds this conversation into the game, but what a goddamn shame they didn't think of it.

They probably did think of it but with 700+ other convos to write thought eeeeeh we can't just have her Support with 2 people just make it the 1.
Project was waay too ambitious and they couldn't deliver on every platform.

I'm happily surprised Ephraim got as far as he did but we all knew Lucina was going to win in the end.
Though lolz at
-Whoever thought the Heroes siblings would win anything
-Lucina winning by 9 billion points

Also Elibe filler heroes drop in 1 hour and I'm not ready.
The new heroes have been evading my undying love--
Eldigan and Rachesis come home 2017

 

[Pretzel Heart]

tl;dr

Fates did nothing wrong

Fates did a lot of stuff wrong but no game is perfect. :p

Also from an earlier comment because lor forgive me I can't stop when it comes to FE-- pure evil isn't necessarily terrible but I think it's become sub-standard in our modern identity-obsessed society. Not to get too theoretical but social trends in narrative tend to favor stories centered on complex individual motivations and an interior struggle that can be symbolized by an external force. This is partially Corn's problem too is that he barely suffers any consequences and cannot grow from his internal struggle which is handled terribly (that he inevitably has to betray his family to stand up for hi ideals). Especially with the kind of story that Fates is trying to tell, about betrayal, about family bonds, about the ripple effects of every decision...it would enhance the overall experience of the game and the catharsis for beating it if we felt more of that emotional impact that could only come from better understanding Garon. Even if we were to make an argument that the big bad can just be...a big bad. Well, it's not the fact that he's pure evil...some of FE's other best villains were pure evil Arvis, but they still had their own motivations for producing those "evil" thought patterns. If Garon's motivation is that he was SPOILER, then it's even worse. It feels like the game is setting up a tragedy with his demise. We should have seen more of his connection with his children, or with his country, or with flipping anything, otherwise the transition from man to SPOILER is completely meaningless. But I think he fails as a "pure evil" type character, too. For one his actions are all over the place; it's hard for me to feel threatened by a man who screams about how Corn is betraying him every 5 seconds. The fact that Corn takes it so lightly too like "Oh golly if I don't do this then popop will have me killed!" doesn't really help. :/

I mean I'll be first to admit that I'm hella finicky about things, and I love Awakening for completely subjective reasons. But objectively the writing in Fates can be so god damn terrible it would have me yelling at my DS regardless if I had played 10 billion FE games before it or 0. Admittedly there are a few excellently written scenes but the plot construction and the writing it other scenes is just....hhhhhhrrrrmmmmnYYYYYYnnn

If they hadn't crammed so much soulless pandering into the game I probably would have been more forgiving of its trespasses because of the sheer ambition and scope of the project alone, since I'd rather have new surprising things that push the series even if they don't turn out the best (which is why I like Conquest over Birthright). But with the child characters + Awakening clones + skinship (not that I really have anything against it but it's pandering af) all I hear is Ryouma whispering in my ear "If ooooonly there had been another way......19.99 in the Nintendo EShop, Coooooooorn."

And if anything is cringey about Fates it's the fact that you can have a 10 year old kid with a 10 year old kid in the middle of a war which is a huge plothole in and of itself but also just no....... :c

 

[Reinhardt]

Whoever thought the Heroes siblings would win anything

Sharena was pretty popular, she had a huge chance to get to the upper rounds but she got faced with Lucina, who should not even be on the tournament since the rest of the participants were siblings not father and daughter. Lissa would have fit the role better, and give a chance to the others instead of having a boring faceroll instawin.

Also Elibe filler heroes drop in 1 hour and I'm not ready.

If only Eliwood was not a fucking owl.

 

[Khadame]

The only thing I wanted from that was Ninian and I got her in 1 pull. God bless RNG. Grey units suck.

And if anything is cringey about Fates it's the fact that you can have a 10 year old kid with a 10 year old kid in the middle of a war which is a huge plothole in and of itself but also just no....... :c

Especially because Rhajat is older than her father. And they never mentioned it. It gets even more awkward when you're her mother and remember she was supposed to be the shitty Tharja lesbian option. Worst family ever.

 

[SpookySableye]

The only thing I wanted from that was Ninian and I got her in 1 pull. God bless RNG. Grey units suck.


Especially because Rhajat is older than her father. And they never mentioned it. It gets even more awkward when you're her mother and remember she was supposed to be the shitty Tharja lesbian option. Worst family ever.

Scarlet would have been a better option in my opinion. Well, really anyone because I dislike Rhajat. Honestly though, there's some stuff I'd consider arguably more awkward. Corrin x Gunter S support anyone?

(But seriously, the Rhajat Hayato thing was pretty weird...)

 

[Reinhardt]

Holy hell. Ninian is a dragon with dance. Goodbye azura lul.

 

[Khadame]

Holy hell. Ninian is a dragon with dance. Goodbye azura lul.

Dragon, dance and warp at =< 50% HP. RIP.

Scarlet would have been a better option in my opinion. Well, really anyone because I dislike Rhajat. Honestly though, there's some stuff I'd consider arguably more awkward. Gunter S support anyone?

(But seriously, the Rhajat Hayato thing was pretty weird...)

The best option would've been Azura. They apparently don't really care she's your cousin, anyway, so lol whatever. Or Soleil, which for some reason can't support with girls even though she's a raging lesbian.

Speaking of Soleil, her entire support with her Mother consists of hitting on her. Which I would say is arguably worse than you telling Gunter he's like a dad and then hitching up. Ew.

 

[SpookySableye]

Dragon, dance and warp at =< 50% HP. RIP.


The best option would've been Azura. They apparently don't really care she's your cousin, anyway, so lol whatever. Or Soleil, which for some reason can't support with girls even though she's a raging lesbian.

Speaking of Soleil, her entire support with her Mother consists of hitting on her. Which I would say is arguably worse than you telling Gunter he's like a dad and then hitching up. Ew.

Yeah, Soliel would have been a decent option. However, you can't get her in Birthright, so that's why i didn't mention her then (although they could have added a gay and lesbian option in both games). Also... yeah, her supports with her mother sound pretty bad. I didn't use Soliel much though, so I didn't get far with her. At least Gunter's C to A supports were rather heartwarming.

 

[Count Gensokyo]

Grey units suck.

*Heals my best attacker to full*
You were saying?


I'm actually fine that FE has held off on gay supports for the most part. Of course, that's just me talking.

 

[Khadame]

*Heals my best attacker to full*
You were saying?

Can't heal them if I kill them in one hit. :J

Yeah, Soliel would have been a decent option. However, you can't get her in Birthright, so that's why i didn't mention her then (although they could have added a gay and lesbian option in both games). Also... yeah, her supports with her mother sound pretty bad. I didn't use Soliel much though, so I didn't get far with her. At least Gunter's C to A supports were rather heartwarming.

If only, only Soleil's supports were written better. Her Ophelia one was just sexual harrassment and the other ones weird and really kind of creepy. The one with the male Avatar was the worst of all. She can only love him when she thinks hes a girl lmao.

 

[Count Gensokyo]

Can't heal them if I kill them in one hit. :J

Implying survival against a 60+ ATCK raging Effie

Why is her Defense so average though

 

[Reinhardt]

Implying survival against a 60+ ATCK raging Effie

Why is her Defense so average though

You probably got a +atk -def effie. Which sucks lul.

 

[Count Gensokyo]

You probably got a +atk -def effie. Which sucks lul.

I think I offset it by backing her up with Olivia dances and waiting until the enemy attacks first.