Fandom Raildex OOC

[Silvana]

the point on the x,y axis chart. Duh. XD (Joke)

 

[Xel]

While in the works of finishing up one of my two characters, I've hit a bit of a wall. While coming up with the abilities for my gravity user I have a bit of a conundrum. His abilities allow him control of gravity around him. Now, this ability does have some distinct weaknesses, but if you aren't accelerator or one of those weaknesses, he is a powerful and daunting opponent due to the nature of his power. This is because gravity effects anything with mass.

Now, to weaken him a bit I came with this. He can influence the gravity in a 50-meter field around himself set as the focal point. The closer you're to him the stronger these effects and the more distance the weaker the effects are. However, it isn't that he is creating gravity and setting himself to be the focal point (much like a planet), but instead, he controls the gravity of earth. As such he wouldn't have these weaknesses. So my other idea would be to have a smaller field about 25 meters in which he has complete control of gravity, but once again I encounter the issue of his powers being almost overpowered in that sense.

I would like to know what do most of you think about this? I guess Celtic will have the most influence on this decision as well, but I would like to know what you all think on this as well. Part of me prefers the latter, but then I feel like that is borderline overpower which isn't what I am aiming for. I am aiming for balance.

Gravity control and balance are mutually exclusive. It's not possible to control gravity and still be balanced with everyone else, so you really shouldn't even try. Basically what Idea said, the only way to be balanced is to be like lvl 1 or 2, essentially so weak you can't use your power. A lvl 4 wouldn't be able to be beaten without a similarly broken power. In the discussion you guys focus a lot on offense, however gravity control's real power comes from it's absolute defense. It's a lot like accelerator in that regard. It's simply not possible to hurt or defeat someone who can control gravity, meaning they can attack you at their leisure.

To put this in perspective, at present no esper in the RP would be able to beat your guy. None of them could land any attacks on him, and even if you had limitations like concentration and whatnot that would, at best case scenario, make it so you can't beat them either bringing it to a draw. Any NPC brought in capable of beating you would, similarly, be unbeatable by everyone else.

Now, I don't care about power levels. I don't care if you're super strong and stronger than everyone else. If that's what you wanna do then go for it. Just be aware that unless you nerf your dude into the ground and make him a lvl 1-2 there can be no balance with gravity control lol.

 

[simj26]

just a constant reminder that most esper abilities are still grounded by physics, despite being a *unique reality*.

 

[Razgriz]

Gravity control and balance are mutually exclusive. It's not possible to control gravity and still be balanced with everyone else, so you really shouldn't even try. Basically what Idea said, the only way to be balanced is to be like lvl 1 or 2, essentially so weak you can't use your power. A lvl 4 wouldn't be able to be beaten without a similarly broken power. In the discussion you guys focus a lot on offense, however gravity control's real power comes from it's absolute defense. It's a lot like accelerator in that regard. It's simply not possible to hurt or defeat someone who can control gravity, meaning they can attack you at their leisure.

To put this in perspective, at present no esper in the RP would be able to beat your guy. None of them could land any attacks on him, and even if you had limitations like concentration and whatnot that would, at best case scenario, make it so you can't beat them either bringing it to a draw. Any NPC brought in capable of beating you would, similarly, be unbeatable by everyone else.

Now, I don't care about power levels. I don't care if you're super strong and stronger than everyone else. If that's what you wanna do then go for it. Just be aware that unless you nerf your dude into the ground and make him a lvl 1-2 there can be no balance with gravity control lol.

That is mainly the problem I have here. However, I would like to add that there is at least one character that is a challenging opponent for him. That would be your character in a matter of fact.The reason gravity control is so powerful is that it effects anything with mass, yet things without mass can and will get past his defense. One such thing is heat ( other examples would be sound, pressure, etc). Fire, explosions, the heat from the fire and explosion, and the pressure from the explosions are all things that gravity can't effect. The only thing she wouldn't be able to use against him would be her plasma lance.

 

[Razgriz]

Just to add a little more to what I just stated. While gravity control is very powerful against anything with mass; its weaknesses are quite distinct. There isn't much he can do about that either. In other words, he has most looks like a powerful spear and impenetrable shield against the right opponent, yet on the other hand that shield means nothing to one of those weaknesses. However, thank you for your opinion I appreciate the feedback. Xel

 

[Xel]

That is mainly the problem I have here. However, I would like to add that there is at least one character that is a challenging opponent for him. That would be your character in a matter of fact.The reason gravity control is so powerful is that it effects anything with mass, yet things without mass can and will get past his defense. One such thing is heat ( other examples would be sound, pressure, etc). Fire, explosions, the heat from the fire and explosion, and the pressure from the explosions are all things that gravity can't effect. The only thing she wouldn't be able to use against him would be her plasma lance.

Eh, only weak gravitational fields. Even a level 4 should be able to put up a gravitational field capable of protecting against sound, or explosions. Probably even heat itself if he focused on defense. Because you have to remember, EVERYTHING has mass. The Molecules being excited in order to generate that heat still have mass, they are still affected by gravity. There's a reason gravity is the strongest force in the universe, literally nothing can escape it. Even time itself is at the whim of gravity. So Vita would be as helpless against a gravity controller same as everyone else.

Like I said, gravity control and balance are mutually exclusive rofl.

 

[simj26]

Sound and shockwaves travels through particles.

Particles can be affected by gravity.

Ergo...

 

[Razgriz]

I am giving up at this point.

 

[simj26]

Also, i'd like to point out, as there are actual fields of study based on different esper abilities, this would mean that there is theoretical limit to the applications of any existing esper ability. We haven't seen a practical limit, seeing as Misaka once ascended to Level 6, but still...

Nonetheless, it has been all but said that Sogiita's explanations for his powers are impossible, scientifically, hence there is a strong link, albeit implied, between espers and science.

 

[simj26]

Tl;dr, esper abilities are not magic. They only perform certain alterations on the scientific world based on a person's unique reality, i.e. removing the effects of air resistance, gravity, and friction on an object. It is still bound to its natural state, and needs a primary force acting on it first to actually do anything.

Say I have two balls, A and B. My power is the above. I throw either balls at the same velocity, but exert my power on A. All it means is that A will hit something at the initial velocity, and will fly straight. If a body is harder than the ball I'm throwing, it would still naturally stop.

The pure scientific nature of esper abilities is what makes them interesting. It's not magic. It's not exactly a miracle. It's simply changing the laws of the world, albeit just a small little part.

 

[Xel]

I am giving up at this point.

Gravity control was one of the powers I thought of while trying to make my character. It being so overpowered is the reason I opted not to use it.

 

[Hanarei]

Really any type of power can be overpowered particularly when taken to the extreme. Like with heat, you could literally just emit so much heat you just melt someone in an instant, or with cold you just flash freeze them. Heck, it probably would be hard to find any power that can't be broken when applied in some way, its just a matter of what it would take to make them overpowered. The most important part is being able to put on strict limitations in order to help balance the power out.

Obviously... that's not really the easiest thing to do. >.<

 

[cojemo]

I haven't read everything, but I'll say that the best way of balancing a power, in my opinion, is making it highly specialized. Like Hanarei said, they should have strict limits. That's why I love how esper powers work in To Aru; it's very rarely something as broad as just controlling gravity. It's always super specific which in turn can be used for a variety of purposes, which is why it always bugs me when I see broad powers like molecular control or something. It's like everyone wants to be the next Accelerator, and while that stuff can be tolerated when dealing with level 5's, it's trickier when dealing with anything else.

I briefly considered something similar to gravity control, and what I was thinking was being able to increase or decrease the users personal gravity within like 1 meter or something like that.

 

[simj26]

Really any type of power can be overpowered particularly when taken to the extreme. Like with heat, you could literally just emit so much heat you just melt someone in an instant, or with cold you just flash freeze them. Heck, it probably would be hard to find any power that can't be broken when applied in some way, its just a matter of what it would take to make them overpowered. The most important part is being able to put on strict limitations in order to help balance the power out.

Obviously... that's not really the easiest thing to do. >.<

It isn't just limitations. There are rules espers have to follow. The rules of nature itself. It would take a lot of energy to superheat or supercool air around a person. You cant just will it to happen.

 

[Hanarei]

It isn't just limitations. There are rules espers have to follow. The rules of nature itself. It would take a lot of energy to superheat or supercool air around a person. You cant just will it to happen.

I mean... if your just suddenly altering temperature or creating lightning or something... you are already breaking the rules of nature so to speak, so you kinda got to take that into consideration. That said it does that but it puts a system in place, much like other series you have powers based around a certain concept with rules it follows, in this case the rules generally try and stick with a scientific angle.

Though... if I recall... there is also limitations that the series has as far as how people use their abilities which don't really factor in at all to how it would work. Like how someone uses their power doesn't change the fact if you tried to do that act in RL, it obviously wouldn't cause lightning to fly out or anything.

 

[simj26]

I mean... if your just suddenly altering temperature or creating lightning or something... you are already breaking the rules of nature so to speak, so you kinda got to take that into consideration. That said it does that but it puts a system in place, much like other series you have powers based around a certain concept with rules it follows, in this case the rules generally try and stick with a scientific angle.

Though... if I recall... there is also limitations that the series has as far as how people use their abilities which don't really factor in at all to how it would work. Like how someone uses their power doesn't change the fact if you tried to do that act in RL, it obviously wouldn't cause lightning to fly out or anything.

The 'unique reality' espers utilise can only do so much, bending reality to allow them to manifest lightning or change the temperature. It is the esper's own addition to the rules of nature, so to speak, or an application of a strikeout to one (or few) rule of nature.

 

[Razgriz]

I haven't read everything, but I'll say that the best way of balancing a power, in my opinion, is making it highly specialized. Like Hanarei said, they should have strict limits. That's why I love how esper powers work in To Aru; it's very rarely something as broad as just controlling gravity. It's always super specific which in turn can be used for a variety of purposes, which is why it always bugs me when I see broad powers like molecular control or something. It's like everyone wants to be the next Accelerator, and while that stuff can be tolerated when dealing with level 5's, it's trickier when dealing with anything else.

I briefly considered something similar to gravity control, and what I was thinking was being able to increase or decrease the users personal gravity within like 1 meter or something like that.

I would have to argue that. A lot of the powers mentioned were, of course, specific to define them from others, and yes there were variations of the more board powers. Yet there are many esper in Academy City all with many different power.They may deviate with some having more specific abilities than others, but there are those with board powers. As well, the more specific an ability is the more limited it is depending on what the power is. It has more restrictions.

The thing about gravity control is unlike some of the other abilities like Electromaster which can and does have many different variations; gravity control is in my opinion more restricted with variations.

 

[cojemo]

I would have to argue that. A lot of the powers mentioned were, of course, specific to define them from others, and yes there were variations of the more board powers. Yet there are many esper in Academy City all with many different power.They may deviate with some having more specific abilities than others, but there are those with board powers. As well, the more specific an ability is the more limited it is depending on what the power is. It has more restrictions.

The thing about gravity control is unlike some of the other abilities like Electromaster which can and does have many different variations; gravity control is in my opinion more restricted with variations.

Yeah, but those are mostly the level 5 powers that are left broad. There are plenty of electromasters with more specific limitations. I do get what you are saying, but I'd argue just controlling 'gravity' is super broad. For example, friction is a much more specific concept that, as shown in the Accelerator manga, can still have a lot of different applications. Gravity is like the most common power I always see in these, and I guess my main point is cleverness. Like Vector control is super super broad, but it's clever.

 

[Razgriz]

Yeah, but those are mostly the level 5 powers that are left broad. There are plenty of electromasters with more specific limitations. I do get what you are saying, but I'd argue just controlling 'gravity' is super broad. For example, friction is a much more specific concept that, as shown in the Accelerator manga, can still have a lot of different applications. Gravity is like the most common power I always see in these, and I guess my main point is cleverness. Like Vector control is super super broad, but it's clever.

I see your point and completely understand. On a quick side note, every raildex rp or similar I have seen, not one gravity user.

 

[Xel]

Broad powers that require creativity to do things are the best powers. That's why I settled on being a pyromancer. It's broad, but it's also simple and specific. But despite being simple and specific it can achieve such a wide variety of things. It isn't that you just shut down your opponent, like reducing their level to 0 or creating an impenetrable gravity well that absorbs/deflects all attacks. You overcome your opponents with clever tricks and usages of your power. At it's base the ability to control heat or shoot fire isn't actually that strong, there's so many countless ways for other espers to counter that. So you have to get smart in how you apply it to get what you want.

That's what makes espers better than magicians in my mind. They have very strict rules, and you have to work within those rules. You can't break them, you can't ignore them, you can't go "close enough". You can either do it or you can't, and if you can't you have to think of something else to get through the situation. With magic you have so much more flexibility that it removes the cleverness of it all.

The thing with gravity control is it doesn't require any cleverness, as Cojemo said. EVERYTHING in the universe is subject to gravity. Hell even things like telepathy or Mental Out could be negated with gravity. So things like gravity control go beyond simply being broad to basically being magic since it has no limitations. There are no walls blocking you. Any and every situation can be overcome through various applications of gravity control.

I mean, to reiterate since my post may imply otherwise. I don't actually mind gravity control. I don't mind OP characters. It's just you gotta acknowledge and be aware that your power makes you basically unbeatable by most everyone. If that's fine then go for it, OP chars can be fun. I mean shit, look at Raildex itself. Plenty of super OP level 5s hanging out with equally important level 0s.

 

[Razgriz]

Since I don't know when to give up when I should. I will have this final thing to say about gravity control. As mentioned before in the ooc by simj26 esper's abilities are based on science (which is also why I like this series). They alter the nature of the world based on their reality. A gravity control user more and less would alter the effects of gravity (ie the strength of pull of gravity on something). Now as stated by Xel this is one of the stronger esper abilities in the universe. I have stated already there are things gravity doesn't effect strongly to the point it's negligible. The best example I have here is this. Electrons have a mass of 1/1836, now, of course, this has mass and gravity effects it, but the effect is so little that it is negligible. Now if a gravity user increased the pull of gravity, of course, the effect on said electron would increase. However, unless the force is increased to extreme measures the effect would still be negligible.

However, as stated I have given up on this and will need a new power for my male esper. But may drop out of the rp though as I have to now come up with a new ability that generally interests me; since rping something that doesn't will bore me. And doing so will be difficult. This will also delay my cses again.

 

[Razgriz]

Also, I know it seems like I am trying to be defensive. I am to a certain degree, but I am not taking any offense in any form. In fact, I enjoy debates like this. I just wanted to say that since I feel like it can seem like that. I just wanted to make that clear.

 

[Razgriz]

Broad powers that require creativity to do things are the best powers. That's why I settled on being a pyromancer. It's broad, but it's also simple and specific. But despite being simple and specific it can achieve such a wide variety of things. It isn't that you just shut down your opponent, like reducing their level to 0 or creating an impenetrable gravity well that absorbs/deflects all attacks. You overcome your opponents with clever tricks and usages of your power. At it's base the ability to control heat or shoot fire isn't actually that strong, there's so many countless ways for other espers to counter that. So you have to get smart in how you apply it to get what you want.

That's what makes espers better than magicians in my mind. They have very strict rules, and you have to work within those rules. You can't break them, you can't ignore them, you can't go "close enough". You can either do it or you can't, and if you can't you have to think of something else to get through the situation. With magic you have so much more flexibility that it removes the cleverness of it all.

The thing with gravity control is it doesn't require any cleverness, as Cojemo said. EVERYTHING in the universe is subject to gravity. Hell even things like telepathy or Mental Out could be negated with gravity. So things like gravity control go beyond simply being broad to basically being magic since it has no limitations. There are no walls blocking you. Any and every situation can be overcome through various applications of gravity control.

I mean, to reiterate since my post may imply otherwise. I don't actually mind gravity control. I don't mind OP characters. It's just you gotta acknowledge and be aware that your power makes you basically unbeatable by most everyone. If that's fine then go for it, OP chars can be fun. I mean shit, look at Raildex itself. Plenty of super OP level 5s hanging out with equally important level 0s.

I acknowledge the fact said ability is borderline overpowered, and it would take certain characters with certain abilities to deal with him.

 

[Xel]

Since I don't know when to give up when I should. I will have this final thing to say about gravity control. As mentioned before in the ooc by simj26 esper's abilities are based on science (which is also why I like this series). They alter the nature of the world based on their reality. A gravity control user more and less would alter the effects of gravity (ie the strength of pull of gravity on something). Now as stated by Xel this is one of the stronger esper abilities in the universe. I have stated already there are things gravity doesn't effect strongly to the point it's negligible. The best example I have here is this. Electrons have a mass of 1/1836, now, of course, this has mass and gravity effects it, but the effect is so little that it is negligible. Now if a gravity user increased the pull of gravity, of course, the effect on said electron would increase. However, unless the force is increased to extreme measures the effect would still be negligible.

However, as stated I have given up on this and will need a new power for my male esper. But may drop out of the rp though as I have to now come up with a new ability that generally interests me; since rping something that doesn't will bore me. And doing so will be difficult. This will also delay my cses again.

You don't have to give up the power or drop out of the RP. I haven't seen the GM say gravity control isn't allowed or anything.

 

[Razgriz]

You don't have to give up the power or drop out of the RP. I haven't seen the GM say gravity control isn't allowed or anything.

Well at least for now I am going to give up on it. I just wanted to state there is a chance I might drop though. At this moment, I'm not dropping out. I might change my mind on the gravity control. I am just going to sleep on it.