Question on Powergamers

[Ker'ion]

From what I've heard, the following PC types are considered powergamer characters:


1) I have a dot or two in everything, so no matter what the task, I can pull off the basics.


2) Everything is bent toward one objective (arcane sorcerer, crafts-master, Martial Arts badass, General of the six hundred and sixty-sixth legion of Malfeas, master-of-weapons, social-fu master, I-can-sail-a-leaf-and-toothpick-to-the-Blessed-Isle, etc.).


3) An expert in two or three things (my favorite is the craftsman-martial artist-sorcerer).


So...


What ISN'T a powergamer?

 

[Flagg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergamin ... ying_games

 

[Brickwall]

A player who invests a little bit in everything is not a powergamer. He will be barely-even-a-little competent at everything. Not good at anything.


It's really based on the scale to which someone is good at something. A character who can regularly knock off attacks with 12 dice, if they are a Dawn or Full Moon, is not anything to worry about. A character who can knock off attacks with 30 dice every round without using up their Charm for the round, and is at close to starting power...that's something you should look out for. Note that powergaming can happen outside of combat, but people rarely do it. It's not impossible. It's not unlikely that some powergamer has gotten monstrous bureaucratic power and made themselves richer than the gods themselves.


Some powergamers manage to fineagle ridiculous results in multiple areas. A guy who has 20 attack dice and also 15 dice in Presence and Athletics is just as bad as the guy with 30 attack dice.

 

[NateDojo]

Brickwall's right, but I think that the furthest parameter is that a powergamer sucks at things outside of his or her (limited) scope AND expects the game to be primarily focused on his or her scope. It's okay to make characters that have interesting weaknesses, and for the character to sit back and watch the action sometimes.


I hope you see where I'm going with this, 'cause I could write for several paragraphs.

 

[Brickwall]

That's not quite true. A powergame character who sucks at craft, bureaucracy, and sailing isn't going to find himself in many situations, if any, that make his "weakness" an actual weakness. The distinction between a powergamer and a well-made character is "how often does this character outshine the others?" If the answer is "about 1/[# of players] of the time", you're probably safe. If the answer is a good deal more than that, there's probably something wrong.

 

[Jeppe]

To me, the concept of powergaming is, when a player cares more about the mechanics of his character, than the credibility of it. When the player doesn't care about any (interesting) explanation on how or why the character does what it does, or learns what it learns, but just goes straight for the number of dice - that's powergaming. And in my opion, everyone would be better off if those people instead played Diablo or World of Warcraft.

 

[cyl]

You know after having witnessed with my own two eyes a lesbian sex scene roleplayed in WoW between two human (priest and paladin get along that well apparently... and they politely asked me to clear the area) in a house lost in the alleys of Stormwind... I am quite confident that WoW isn't all about powergaming


But it sure felt nice when I hit the supreme PvP rank :twisted:

 

[Coyotekin]

Powergaming basically comes down to this: It is where you work a system to get the most benefit with the least effort, and as soon as you are able to.


And the powergamer tends to want to show off, look bad-ass, seem bad-ass, and be known as the supreme badass in the field they wish to be the foremost at.

 

[Ker'ion]

*ahem*


EM. :|

 

[Tikor]

To me, the concept of powergaming is, when a player cares more about the mechanics of his character, than the credibility of it. When the player doesn't care about any (interesting) explanation on how or why the character does what it does, or learns what it learns, but just goes straight for the number of dice - that's powergaming. And in my opion, everyone would be better off if those people instead played Diablo or World of Warcraft.

So roll playing vs. role playing, where roll players are powergamers.


Surely, though, we should invite these players to our games in hopes of redemption? Can't we play a part in teaching the combat monkey that a full night of unrolled social combat can be fun and interesting? Show the social-fu master that a well role-played truthful argument the NPC is truly convinced by and thereby doesn't defend against is worth more than 20 charisma+presence dice?

 

[Brickwall]

1. Some powergamers are perfectly fine roleplayers. They just don't share the mechanical field well with others.


2. The ones that aren't will never be if they keep playing games they can break. I suggest making them play WUSHU, where their power is pretty much solely fueled by roleplaying.

 

[cyl]

What ISN'T a powergamer?

Someone who isn't playing exalted ? :lol:

 

[Brickwall]

And the powergamer tends to want to show off, look bad-ass, seem bad-ass, and be known as the supreme badass in the field they wish to be the foremost at.

And what exactly are the qualifications to distinguish them from a normal Exalted player? There's a difference.

 

[strawberryleaves]

A common power-gamer tell in Exalted is the attempt to stunt everything for the mechanical effects.


If a player is happier about the three dice she got from a kickass stunt than about the incredible visual image she created, she's more likely to be a power-gamer.

 

[Jeppe]

Surely, though, we should invite these players to our games in hopes of redemption? Can't we play a part in teaching the combat monkey that a full night of unrolled social combat can be fun and interesting?

I don't think that 'redemption' is the issue. If someone enjoys feeling powerful with a fictional character, who excels at this or that, that's just fine with me. I don't think that 'true role-playing' is inherently better than roll-playing (thanks for that word by the way. We have it in Danish, but I didn't know it existed in English as well). My point was, that those people would have more fun playing a game that is centered around having as powerful a character as possible, like WoW or Diablo, and people who enjoy the storytelling elements of role-palying should gather around role-playing games. If everyone did that, everyone would be slightly happier.

 

[Malekith]

IMO, a power gamer is one who studies the rules, contimplates them, and then comes up with plans to exploit the various loop holes in both charactor creation and game play to maximize his charactors abilities to do the kind of things he wants to focus on. For example:


*Okay, I think one of the MA that has the most bang for the buck is Art of forceful declaration. It uses valor, so I will take the Paragon virtue flaw in order to get my valor to 6, and I can use that instead of conviction for WP rolls. Also, if I take the immaculate earth style entry level damage charms, and combo with...."


I have sometimes been accused of being a power gamer =P

 

[Flagg]

IMO, a power gamer is one who studies the rules, contimplates them, and then comes up with plans to exploit the various loop holes in both charactor creation and game play to maximize his charactors abilities to do the kind of things he wants to focus on.

Not that any of these terms are definite, but what you're describing is a hame hacker or a munchkin. While these types of people are generally also power gamers, not all power gamers are munchkins.

 

[Ker'ion]

The way I look at Exalted is that if you can't do at least one thing at an expert to master level (4 to 5 dots in the necessary abilities) then you aren't playing the game right unless you are nothing more than a regular Heroic mortal.


Sure, a Dragon-Blooded can have a three or less in all of his abilities, but I'm not betting on the character having much of a future without someone rewriting his destiny and his entire personality.


To be a Celestial Exalt, you should be required to have a grand goal, a heroic Motivation and be exceptional at what you are trying to do in life.


A thief with only a two or three in Investigation, Larceny, Lore, Occult and Stealth is going to be short-lived unless he's in a more rural area. And I can't see any decent Storyteller allowing someone with a sheet like that to become a Celestial Exalt.


I REQUIRE that every player at least put a decent effort into creating their character, having at least one five and a few fours in complimentary areas aimed at their character's motivation.


Example PC:


Archery 0_____Athletics 3_____Awareness 2 (Artifact +3)_____Bureaucracy 2 (+2)


Craft (Air) 2_____(Earth) 5_____(Fire) 3_____(Water) 2_____(Wood) 1_____(Genesis) 1_____(Magitech) 5 (Artifact +1)


Dodge 3_____Integrity 2_____Investigation 1_____Larceny 5_____Linguistics 3


Lore 5_____Martial Arts 5 (Artifact +1)_____Medicine 2_____Melee 0_____Occult 5


Performance (Seduction) 3_____Presence 4_____Resistance 4 (Artifacts +5 vs. Poisons and Toxins)_____Ride 0_____Sail 4


Socialize 2_____Survival 1 (Artifact +1)_____Stealth 2_____Thrown 0_____War 3


He is a First Age Solar and a major figure in his city as well as a master craftsman (bunch of Craft, Lore and Sorcery Charms with a few MA Charms in Tiger Style).


Is this a powergamer?

 

[The zombie cat]

To us a power gamer is just somebody that deliberately builds powerful characters, and we don't consider it to be a terribly bad thing, so long as it is logical for your character to do so. Dabbling in a secondary martial art that complements your primary style is a logical move for somebody that is driven to be the best, this is how myself and some of my friends run our real lives,


For example I am currently studying biomedical science at one university, planing to take genetic engenering units externally from another university and considering studying politics, marketing or sociology to be better able to get and keep a research position and grants because its at least as important to be seen as a good researcher as to actually know everything.


Now considering that I am at best a heroic mortal with a heroic motivation and heroic drive (i'm going to geneticly engenere bugs that will save the world from pollution), my exalted characters usually have the kind of drive and ambition I wish I had, so seeking out and learning complementary charm sets, combat buff sorcery, and seeking the location of artifatcs that provide armour that will work with my martial arts makes sense, not just for my character but for all the exalted, if you lack drive and ambition enough to seek out greatness by any and all means available you will never take the second breath, and I hate playing characters that are suckyer than me.


The problem players are the ones that do this ineffectively, constantly change characters and hog the spot light, we call those munchkins.


Edward

 

[StarHawk]

Okay, taking these descriptions presented, and reading the wikipedia page on it, power gamers are people who know their game, who use it to their best advantage, and will succeed in the areas of their interest.


What if this doesn't work? Do you credit the ST being masterful and stopping the power-gaming or do you credit the lack of "intelligence/ingenuity" of the player?


For example: a guy I play with often, I'll call him Mike, makes characters that are specialized for the most combat efficiency. He's made the martial artist sorcerer, the ultimate craftsman, etc. But each time he spends a week making the character, but it does not work out in game. He also just makes stats, (I.E. The Martial Artist Sorcerer, no background, only stats.) then if the ST requires it, he'll pull up some sort of background that loosely fits how he became "awesome"

 

[cyl]

Mike is a rollplayer sort of powergamer


But that doesn't mean he can't become a good roleplayer if he feels enough ease with his character.


I know the type: I had a player in my first solar game who came up with three concepts in 1e: Zenith warlord-priest-sorcerer, Full Moon wandering warrior, Twilight uber crafter. He just played the 2 first.


The guy, let's call him Greg, Greg is the kind of guy who likes to dominate a situation his character should master according to him. Greg is an excellent rollplayer !


He became so comfortable with both that they ended up excessively charismatic (in a positive way) and as the game went on for several years, they did incredible things (he switched from a character to another from season to season), and my group has vivid memories of them.


Redemption is always possible, you just need to give the neediest what they need and the right push to fulfill their destiny ! :roll:

 

[StarHawk]

Okay, I can see that. "Mike" perhaps could be a roleplayer like the rest of us someday. Most of the time he's a better paperweight... But that's merely my opinion.


Names have been changed to protect the ignorant

 

[Gylthinel]

There's a lot of finger-pointing, saying that power-gamers are "wrong." But, are they? Munchkins are great at 1 thing, but won't be great at everything. A well-rounded game embraces everything. So, let the munchkin do his thing, let the other players exeed him in other areas. I have a Kung-Fu guy who's nearly a munchkin, completely outshining my King player. But, King can totally stomp in social combat, wherein Kung-Fu can't even participate. The only issue would arise if if King got jealous of Kung-Fu's skills, but that's not Kung-Fu's problem, or Kung-Fu's fault, its entirely because King is jealous. If anything, it's rather selfish of King to think that he should excel in social combat, and also be on par with Kung-Fu in regular combat. Ergo, I would contend that the problem is not with power gamers, its with all of those sitting around the power gamers who are jealous; and with a GM who tailors a game too much to the Munchkin's abilities, and not enough to everybody else's.


Ultimately, the point of the game is to have fun. A powergamer has fun. If those around him don't... why should he have to change? Why don't they change?

 

[Brickwall]

Said munchkins tend to only be outshone in areas that are rather difficult to make integral to an adventure (crafting, for instance). When said difficult redirection does happen, they tend to either complain or simply do their best to throw the campaign off (and when it takes a Deathlord to stop them, you can be damn sure they'll manage it). I have played with these munchkins, and they are rarely stopped by social encounters. Their social stats are usually also quite impressive (I've also met social munchkins who also have impressive combat stats).


Why should these people change? For two reasons. One is that they tend to be the minority. If they can't cooperate with the majority to make the game more fun, they shouldn't be in the game. The second is that it's not even a little difficult for them to scale back, but quite a lot of people would find it incredibly difficult to keep up with them.


Powergamers are a problem. Not always a big one, but it can and does get nasty. If they could all play with each other and not make roleplayers' gaming experiences difficult (and, conversely, the roleplayers would not join powergaming groups and slow them down), then we'd be fine. But that sort of thing isn't exactly possible to organize. Better to fix the people who have the easy adjustment.

 

[The zombie cat]

There's a lot of finger-pointing, saying that power-gamers are "wrong." But, are they? Munchkins are great at 1 thing, but won't be great at everything. A well-rounded game embraces everything. So, let the munchkin do his thing, let the other players exeed him in other areas. I have a Kung-Fu guy who's nearly a munchkin, completely outshining my King player. But, King can totally stomp in social combat, wherein Kung-Fu can't even participate. The only issue would arise if if King got jealous of Kung-Fu's skills, but that's not Kung-Fu's problem, or Kung-Fu's fault, its entirely because King is jealous. If anything, it's rather selfish of King to think that he should excel in social combat, and also be on par with Kung-Fu in regular combat. Ergo, I would contend that the problem is not with power gamers, its with all of those sitting around the power gamers who are jealous; and with a GM who tailors a game too much to the Munchkin's abilities, and not enough to everybody else's.
Ultimately, the point of the game is to have fun. A powergamer has fun. If those around him don't... why should he have to change? Why don't they change?

There is a distinction between power gamers and munchkins.


All munchkins are bad, this statement lies in the definition of munchkin, if they where not being disruptive then they would not be munchkins, they would just be power gamers.


Taking the same character sheets as your example characters kung fu could be a munchkin if he disrupted scenes set up for social combat, for example beating up all the NPCs.


As long as he realizes that he is of minimal usefulness in a social situation and is happy to stay out of it then it is all good, and he there for is not a munchkin.


Edward