Question about the Eclipse and the rules of hospitality

[Swallow]

maybe this is a dumb question but,


how does the eclipse free passage thing work?


what does "legitimate Business" mean?


what happen if a daemon accidentally attacks a Eclipse?


Does this help against the wild warping?


Help Please

 

[Flagg]

maybe this is a dumb question but,
how does the eclipse free passage thing work?


what does "legitimate Business" mean?


what happen if a daemon accidentally attacks a Eclipse?

These may be answered in Castebook: Eclipse, but they're certainly not laid out in the main book.

Does this help against the wild warping?

No.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

I don't think there is an "accidentally," for one - not in my games, there isn't.  The Primordials swore oaths on their names, on their very natures, and all their demon broods are bound by them.


It's largely a plot-device power... but you could turn it to your advantage if you acted quickly enough in a confrontation with Wyld things or demons.  "Legitimate business" can mean "parley..." and from there, bust out your Social Charms on the head best & talk your way out of the situation.  Or have your Night Caste jam a dirk up the thing's nostril and be done with it.

 

[Flagg]

Personally, I run it thusly:


If the Eclipse enters the territory of a demon, Deathlord, Raksha, etc, he must, upon his first meeting with a representative of said party, announce his name, his purpose, and verbally invoke his oath-given protection. At this point, so long as he is given permission to remain, he is immune to harm. If the "host" refuses to extend him hospitality, he may leave unmolested, so long as he does so immediately.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

There you go.  "Now listen, swarthy hobgobs, in the name of the Unconquered Sun and the Solar Deliberative, take me to your leader and put those pointy sticks away.  Boss-man and me have business to discuss."


It DOES say in the book that they can still harrass & provoke you, so if you're dumb enough to attack them, you get NO diplomatic immunity.

 

[Swallow]

now that would work.....


but if the eclipse enters the city of malfeas, who would the host be?

 

[Flagg]

but if the eclipse enters the city of malfeas, who would the host be?

I would say, in the interests of fairness, the entire Yozi host.


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

His fetich - Ligier, I think?

 

[Jakk Bey]

There's also the question of accepting their hospitiality. Rude not to drink with the Fire Elementals, when they toast to your good health?  What about refusing the food and drink supplied by the Yozi?  The Rakasha?  You have to play it by ear to see when the Eclipse might screw himself by breaking the rules of being a good guest--and how a clever host could get the Eclipse to violate the hospitality offered...

 

[uteck]

There is bad hospitality, and then there is trying to kill your guest.  Offering them liquid fire or posion is clearly against the spirit of the oath I would think.    Ignorance of the oath or your guests limitations is not an excuse to break it.


But there is no reason why you get to leave unmolested.  You talk to the big boss, then he has you killed.  The power says nothning about leaving, it is just bad form to kill diplomats.  Also, the power does not work on creatures of Creation.  So a DB, Lunar, or mortal can violate it.

 

[Flagg]

But there is no reason why you get to leave unmolested.  You talk to the big boss, then he has you killed.  The power says nothning about leaving, it is just bad form to kill diplomats.

The power says very little about anything, really. It's exceedingly vague, hence the creation of this thread.


In my view, not having the power cover an Eclipse's retreat makes it extremely useless. What good is protection from one's enemies if it fails as soon as you're in the heart of their territory, surrounded by their minions? An Eclispe would have to be a moron to even try it.

Also, the power does not work on creatures of Creation.  So a DB, Lunar, or mortal can violate it.

True, but none of the parties so-bound could ASK them to do this. They'd have to be acting as a free-agent.


Their diplomatic immunity is certainly not an excuse for the Eclipse to become complacent, but it should should be a resonable lvel of protection within its own limits.


-S

 

[Solfi]

[QUOTE="White Wolf]

[about the Eclipse Caste]


...Members of this caste may also walk among spirits and demons without fear, protected by ancient and inviolable treaties of safe passage sworn during the height of the Old Realm.

[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="White Wolf]

[from Character Creation summary]


Anima Powers: May use their animas to sanctify oaths and contracts and to provide diplomatic immunity when dealing with spirits, demons and the Fair Folk.

[/QUOTE]
.. given those two quotes I find it quite obvious that they are, in fact, inviolate as long as they identify themselves as Eclipse Caste, and do not engage in hostile activity.


Diplomatic immunity, without the right of withdrawal isn't diplomatic immunity. And not having that right would most certainly not constitute being able to "walk among spirits and demons without fear", unless the Eclipse is not only intolerably arrogant, but unbelievably stupid as well ...

 

[memesis]

Imagine for a moment that you are a policeman.  Imagine that instead of attacking you or swallowing your soul or whatever, you have criminals who will only perform criminal acts when they don't see a cop around, and who have sworn not to kill cops.  Now, let's look at these questions.

How does the eclipse free passage thing work?

As a police officer, you can patrol your beat without interruption.  You can walk into a restaurant owned by a Mob boss in pursuit of a robber, even if you are in uniform.  If the staff knows you're a cop, you may not even need to flash your badge to get them to listen to you.

what does "legitimate Business" mean?

This doesn't mean you can just kick down the door of Napoleon Nutiano's bedroom and catch him in bed with his mistress, and expect to still enjoy your immunity.  If you are there to arrest him, you can.  Similarly, you can perform other duties in your role as cop.  But if you are off-duty, you lose that privilege.

what happen if a daemon accidentally attacks a Eclipse?

If you don't flash your badge, a crook doesn't know you're a cop and so doesn't know he isn't allowed to shoot at you.

Does this help against the wild warping?

No.

 

[Swallow]

This doesn't mean you can just kick down the door of Napoleon Nutiano's bedroom and catch him in bed with his mistress, and expect to still enjoy your immunity.  If you are there to arrest him, you can.

So youre saying .....if a eclipse has proof like say...The Ebon Dragon has kidnapped the Scarlet Empress.....He kan walk in to Malfeas... shout  "freeze!"and arrest the deamon?

 

[Persell]

This doesn't mean you can just kick down the door of Napoleon Nutiano's bedroom and catch him in bed with his mistress, and expect to still enjoy your immunity.  If you are there to arrest him, you can.

So youre saying .....if a eclipse has proof like say...The Ebon Dragon has kidnapped the Scarlet Empress.....He kan walk in to Malfeas... shout  "freeze!"and arrest the deamon?

Hmmm, no. Capturing humans and torturing them into submissions is not against the rules the demons have to follow. But you could go in and have a talk with him.

 

[memesis]

This doesn't mean you can just kick down the door of Napoleon Nutiano's bedroom and catch him in bed with his mistress, and expect to still enjoy your immunity.  If you are there to arrest him, you can.

So youre saying .....if a eclipse has proof like say...The Ebon Dragon has kidnapped the Scarlet Empress.....He kan walk in to Malfeas... shout  "freeze!"and arrest the deamon?

Hmmm, no. Capturing humans and torturing them into submissions is not against the rules the demons have to follow. But you could go in and have a talk with him.

"Obeying the Exalted" IS a rule demons can be compelled to follow via sorcery.  I don't think proof enters into it, since there's no court of law.  If the Eclipse is confident that it happened, then I would say that's good enough.


Rescuing and protecting a "citizen" of Creation seems to fall under the Eclipse purview, so long as he was willing to negotiate in civil terms.  The moment he gives up such a notion and pulls his sword, the Eclipse anima power will no longer protect his party from attack.


I would let an Eclipse go talk to the Ebon Dragon's subordinates and basically be laughed at ("I will take the souls of your Circle in trade"), and still enjoy his immunity.

 

[Samiel]

<braying>


The eclipse, as long as they identify themselves, are more or less proof against attack. You see one on the road and you are a bandit: You don't attack him (if you're a demon-bandit, or what have you).


If you are on legitimate business, which I would quite loosely define as "Not dicking around", you are similarly inviolate, and your host must treat you as he would a favoured guest (flavoured?), preferably in the manner you find most appropriate.


You could even be dropping by for tea and a chat about the state of the world. That is a definite intent and thus, in my opinion, legitimate business, as opposed to wandering aimlessly in his lawn until he tells you to piss off.


I do not think you have any right to order the demons around in their city. That is something that can be enforced by sorcery, but otherwise the demons sit in their city, more or less free to tell you to bugger off.


The eclipse are not the cops of creation, they are the diplomats. They can sanctify oaths, but otherwise they have no specific authority not deliberately vested in them.


Also, the mutating force of the wyld is not an entity, it is a force. It is not beholden to any oaths. However, the wyld-directing powers of the fair folk are definately a violation when employed versus an eclipse; read that Swan vs Raksha excerpt in the Fair Folk.


It's good to be an eclipse.


</braying>


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Hey, ever wanted your Eclipse anima power to effect other exalted? Ever felt hard-done-by that your own lieutenants can dick you over, but some distant god of shoe-tacks is buggered scared of messing with you?


Simply follow my easy (if time-consuming) instructions:


-Make the house founders of Ragara (He's still around, bless 'im) and Mnemon swear oaths giving the eclipse immunity (not as easy as it sounds). They, in the name of their houses, enforce the oath upon their lines. Then arrange for the destruction of the others.


-Keep doing the same with other exalts, at knife-point if necessary. These oaths will carry through to their next lives. Make it dramatic as well, so they'll remember. Involve ostriches or something.


-Do something like the first step with several prominent mortal families, and then help them set up a city, where new citizens swear to abide by the oaths of the founders upon the wrath of heaven. Make it a rockin' city.


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Ok, maybe that's pushing things, the last one. Although I do think if you caught someone before they procreated, their children would be beholden to the oath (as long as that was a condition). An oathbound house. And all you had to do was kick Mnemon a few times with mighty solar charms.

 

[Jukashi]

The botches affect the oathbreaker; so, if you swear your kids will act one way, and they don't, don't you get the wrath of heaven?


Also, that last one about the city sounds a lot like how things are in Paragon.

 

[memesis]

I do not think you have any right to order the demons around in their city. That is something that can be enforced by sorcery, but otherwise the demons sit in their city, more or less free to tell you to bugger off.

Read carefully what I said.  The Eclipse anima power gives you a bargaining table to sit at.  It in no way gives you the right to "order" demons around, anywhere - that's what Demon of the Xth Circle gives you, when used.

The eclipse are not the cops of creation, they are the diplomats. They can sanctify oaths, but otherwise they have no specific authority not deliberately vested in them.

Uh.  As Solars, they are the Lawgivers.  "I am the Law" is not an empty boast for them.  They have the Mandate of Heaven.  They have as much right to rule and enforce their vision of order upon Creation as anyone, and more than most.  The authority to own Creation WAS DELIBERATELY vested in them at the end of the war against the Primordials, and it has not been revoked.  It's just that they aren't in a position to use it.

 

[Forn Clakes]

...As Solars, they are the Lawgivers.  "I am the Law" is not an empty boast for them.  They have the Mandate of Heaven.  They have as much right to rule and enforce their vision of order upon Creation as anyone, and more than most.  The authority to own Creation WAS DELIBERATELY vested in them at the end of the war against the Primordials, and it has not been revoked.  It's just that they aren't in a position to use it.

You know what memesis, this is something that I haven't really looked at before, in those specific terms.  Thanks for that, it'll help in my current story.  


~FC.

 

[Samiel]

The eclipse are not the cops of creation, they are the diplomats. They can sanctify oaths, but otherwise they have no specific authority not deliberately vested in them.

Uh.  As Solars, they are the Lawgivers.  "I am the Law" is not an empty boast for them.  They have the Mandate of Heaven.  They have as much right to rule and enforce their vision of order upon Creation as anyone, and more than most.  The authority to own Creation WAS DELIBERATELY vested in them at the end of the war against the Primordials, and it has not been revoked.  It's just that they aren't in a position to use it.

Agreed. I meant that to read: They have no magical effect forcing demons to obey them normally.


On "oaths to the Nth generation": I'm not certain about this myself, but I think if you were to catch someone and make him swear about something so that his children were sworn also, assuming he had the authority to do so (they were unborn), then they would also be beholden. Sucks to be them if they don't know, but in my game at least, people have an instinctive twinge whenever they are about to blatantly break an oath. If uninformed, the children might simply have an irrational fear of doing something and never know why.


However, there is no foundation for this outlook in canon: It's just my take and is a possibility.


The bit about forcing other celestials to swear is well backed up, however. In their next incarnations they have to deal with the same crap. It can and should turn up now and then: The lunar who cannot strike the eclipse in the party and offers them hospitality grudgingly, even if they don't remember why.