Problem Players?

[Halfdead Frodi]

I'm curious, what sort of methods have people found useful for dealing with problem players, whether as an ST or as a fellow player? Myself, I've generally tried the talk to them approach some...along with not letting them know about the game or not inviting them to such, and have found them rather useful as an ST... especially when some fool who has never finished reading the book expounds on idiocies for hours on end...and flat out refuses to accept the rules even when shown them... *rolls eyes* But as a player I've generally found there is little that can be done if your ST is to soft to lay down the law... Also, what sort of probelms have people run into? I've seen everything from fools that refuse to read the rules, ones who refuse to accept the rules, ones who actively try to create characters that do not follow the theme of a game (i.e. a Scotsman in a Rokugan game once), players that come to game drunk, players that randomely murder anyone they can ic for no reason, and so on... any examples that people found either extremely annoying...or amusing in their idiocy?

 

[Joseph]

I'm curious' date=' what sort of methods have people found useful for dealing with problem players, whether as an ST or as a fellow player?[/quote']
Kick them out of the group.  That's pretty much all there is to it.  If everytime you let your friend drive you somewhere he swerved around like a maniac, would you continue to let him drive you places and try to "work things out," or simply stop letting him drive you places?  Same principle here.

 

[psychoph]

I have seen my story teller deal with those that like to just commit random shit talk to the player and get an explination.  Granted the player that tends to do this also tends to realize that this is just random shit when the storyteller quesitons it and isn't stubborn enough to push forward.


I have also seen concequences happen in games where someone does stupid shit they get shit coming at them at an alarming rate.  I.E. I kill random npc A.  Storyteller tuyrns random person A into son or daughter of very important NPC B and all of the sudden PC doing stupid stuff gets throw in the jail cell with trumped up charges of reason.


Rules differences tend to go down as a discussion until it is determined if the player and the st are at opposite odds.  at that point in time the St says it is my game so my rules this is how it is goign to be and you have the choice of leaving or staying.  Most people stay and just grumble.


For the most part we haven't had huge problem players, minus the one guy that seemed to keep all his real life rage pent up and then unleash it in character.  We had an intervention for him and he left the group after we tried to talk to him in the intervention.

 

[MikeOQuinn]

So far, no issues with problem players.


One issue with a problem ST, though. He hadn't read the rules, assuming that they were identical to the WoD storyteller system ones, and refused to listen when I pointed out the purpose of a number of them.


It did, eventually, come down to an "I'm the ST; therefore, I am God as far as this game goes. Shut up and play or leave." I left. Later, when he read the rules, he actually did apologize to the other players and myself - the others, for not reading the rules and causing inconsistent gameplay as a result; and me, for not allowing me to question him and help him improve as an ST.


Worked out in the end, but it can be as much a problem for a game as having a GM who is too soft to deal with problem players.

 

[psychoph]

I woudl second that a Problem St can be just as much a headache.


I haven't played with but have heard about one st in my area that has the problem of being very free with character creation, letting characters create whatever they want using the Big Eyes Small Mouth system.  They then get extremely restrictive during play in the way the character use those things that they so rightly purchased at the beginning.


Usualyl what has happened with the ST is they get discouraged that things are getting out of hand and end up deciding not to run the game, which the players tend to be ok with.


This St has yet to learn that if they take the time before hand to relaly plan things out they will have a better understanding of how powers will work.  To apply it to exlated it can be said that if you reaad all the charms and get an idea of what a solar or db or sidereal can do you will be less likely to be surprised when a character tries to do somethign with the power they were given.

 

[MikeOQuinn]

it can be said that if you reaad all the charms and get an idea of what a solar or db or sidereal can do you will be less likely to be surprised when a character tries to do somethign with the power they were given.

Very, very true. In a game where amazingly overpowered things are available to your players, knowing exactly what the limits and capabilities of their powers are is insanely helpful.


It helps you know how they'll try and use them in combination to mess up your storyline, for example.

 

[Maryuoh]

It did, eventually, come down to an "I'm the ST; therefore, I am God as far as this game goes. Shut up and play or leave." I left.

I've also had a lot of problems with this attitude. While not quite as annoying as some brands of idiocy that show up in games, it's more insidious, especially as White-Wolf, for whatever reason, goes out of their way to encourage the mentality.


An ST takes the role of God... to the characters. Am I seven feet tall? Do I casually swing around a hammer with a head larger than many European automobiles? Am I glowing with the light of the Sun? No? That's because I'm not my fucking character. If we're having this conversation, it means we're out of character, and you are exactly my equal. Not only are you not invulnerable to criticism, but if you're doing a bad job as ST, anyone else in the group (my group, at least) can easily replace you.


Argh. Yeah... I really have a problem with STs that go on power trips. With PCs, a lot of the bad habits players pick up, they're not aware of, so often pointing them out whenever they hog the action/avoid doing anything/hog the cheetos/avoid paying for their share of the cheetos/whatever is enough to prompt a change in behavior. If that doesn't work, yeah, it's time to ditch either the player or the group. Of course, if you live in a lot of areas, you don't have a wealth of groups to choose from, so if they won't change, you sometimes have to make the choice between not playing at all or playing in a crappy game. Or you can play online. Which I kinda prefer anyway... but a lot of people don't.

 

[Relic]

On the offchance that you have a subscription to Pyramid Magazine (http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/) I recommend you take a look at the Play Dirty articles written by John Wick.


There's nothing revolutionary in there but they do contain a number of tricks that are nice for a storyteller to know, plus they're an enjoyable read. One of the articles deals with problem players. The solutions he gives are perhaps a bit nastier than an average storyteller would be to his friends, then again perhaps not. ;-)


If you do not have a subscription, consider getting one. It's a measly 20$ a year, you get access to all the old Pyramid issues, and there are new articles every week. Some of it is GURPS oriented but generally everything can be adapted. (I'll stop advertising now).

 

[Jakk Bey]

You've got to know your players. Plain and simple. What they want out of the game, and if they fit into you and your other players' style of play.


Some players are a problem, because they aren't getting what they want or need for their style of play. Some are just dicks.  Some are just clueless and with a little help can become decent players if you invest some time and figure out what they're looking for.


But you have to know what they're looking for.  As an ST, you've got to be able to read people. Plain and simple, sometimes the best option is just be honest and ask folks what they're looking for. Some folks aren't that up front, but their choice of characters is telling.


You've got a game full of diplomats, and one fella chooses and assassin. Hmmm?  You can use that to your advantage, and get the group involved in some deep politics and grungy, dirty pool with that boy in the mix.  You've got a rounded out group, and one girl gets up a dizzy silly shamanka. Use that for story hooks when possible.


People become problems often because they don't feel that people are appreciating what they are trying to bring to the table. You have to decide if what they bring to the table can benifit your group and your style of play. If not, then you may have to bid them farewell and suggest a group that might be better suited to them.


I like when players come up with a concept or go off on tangents. It helps me bring in new plot elements and it steers things often in ways I didn't expect, but a good ST should be ready to encorporate those tangents--because that's why we play RPG's instead of just sitting at home telling stories to ourselves.  Others steer the story in new ways that we didn't expect and you might want to take a look at how you are laying on the ST control.  RPG's are give and take. A little self examination doesn't hurt.  


Or the kid could be a raging asshat, and needs to be given the boot. Your choice.

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

You've got a game full of diplomats, and one fella chooses and assassin. Hmmm?  You can use that to your advantage, and get the group involved in some deep politics and grungy, dirty pool with that boy in the mix.  You've got a rounded out group, and one girl gets up a dizzy silly shamanka. Use that for story hooks when possible.
People become problems often because they don't feel that people are appreciating what they are trying to bring to the table. You have to decide if what they bring to the table can benifit your group and your style of play. If not, then you may have to bid them farewell and suggest a group that might be better suited to them.


I like when players come up with a concept or go off on tangents. It helps me bring in new plot elements and it steers things often in ways I didn't expect, but a good ST should be ready to encorporate those tangents--because that's why we play RPG's instead of just sitting at home telling stories to ourselves.  Others steer the story in new ways that we didn't expect and you might want to take a look at how you are laying on the ST control.  RPG's are give and take. A little self examination doesn't hurt.  


Or the kid could be a raging asshat, and needs to be given the boot. Your choice.

My main issue is when you have a diplomacy based game...and someone insists on attacking every single individual you meet, or suchlike... or insists on stealing from every person you attempt diplomacy with or suchlike...or the person who hides behind the rest of the party, takes no useful action ever, in or outside of combat, aside from giving people another target to hit...and since all they ever do is take defensive actions...and insist that they are a vital member of the group and should always be treated as if they were the most helpful member of the party...

 

[Flagg]

That sounds like an issue that can be handled in character, by the other members of the group. That would most likely piss off the rest of the characters, who constantly have to deal with this shithead. I'm sure they'd speak/act up.


-S

 

[Halfdead Frodi]

That sounds like an issue that can be handled in character, by the other members of the group. That would most likely piss off the rest of the characters, who constantly have to deal with this shithead. I'm sure they'd speak/act up.
-S

Perhaps...but when said individual replaces their now removed character with a carbon copy...and for one reason or another you cannot simply remove them from a game without significant ooc issues...

 

[Haku1]

That sounds like an issue that can be handled in character, by the other members of the group. That would most likely piss off the rest of the characters, who constantly have to deal with this shithead. I'm sure they'd speak/act up.
-S

Perhaps...but when said individual replaces their now removed character with a carbon copy...and for one reason or another you cannot simply remove them from a game without significant ooc issues...

Then you HAVE to have a talk with the player in person and explain things from your end. That his character -type- seems to not work well with the group's other characters in general.


Bargain with him... come to a compromise.

 

[Jakk Bey]

So Boot the bastich...


Half-Dead--So if the person's character isn't in keeping with the game, or the style of play that your group is interested in, then you can politely suggest another group that is more interested in that style of play, or you can do the tried and true method of passive booting...and just never invite the sucker back to the table.


It's not real honest, but folks seem to like the non confrontational quality.


Not my first choice--I'd rather just be up front and tell someone that they just aren't right for the table, and let them learn from the experience, but then again, that's me.  Crushing hopes and dreams is my forte.

 

[Flagg]

Re: So Boot the bastich...

Crushing hopes and dreams is my forte.

I thought that was skulls, Jakk, not hopes and dreams.


-S

 

[Jakk Bey]

Heads are hard. Tracheas are much easier. Hearts and minds are even more malleable and easier to manipulate.  


As much Little Joe would like to malign my secondary career path, the truth is that bouncing is much more about making people feel bad about ever attempting to make a ruckus than physically intimidating them or laying on of hands.  Easier on the club, easier on the patron, easier on the staff.  


Dreams and hopes are easier to repair than heads too. You go for the stuff that people can replace...

 

[Joseph]

As much Little Joe would like to malign my secondary career path' date=' [/quote']
You did a fine job maligning it yourself on the old Compendium.  After your description of what you did and how you handled people, I don't think there was anything left to possibly say that could make you either look like a worse person, or make the job look more horribly brutish.

... the truth is that bouncing is much more about making people feel bad about ever attempting to make a ruckus than physically intimidating them or laying on of hands.  

Interesting theory.  Entirely false, and a vain attempt to make you feel better about your life of violence, but interesting.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

Jakk Bey wrote:


As much Little Joe would like to malign my secondary career path,  


You did a fine job maligning it yourself on the old Compendium.  After your description of what you did and how you handled people, I don't think there was anything left to possibly say that could make you either look like a worse person, or make the job look more horribly brutish.


Jakk Bey wrote:


... the truth is that bouncing is much more about making people feel bad about ever attempting to make a ruckus than physically intimidating them or laying on of hands.  


Interesting theory.  Entirely false, and a vain attempt to make you feel better about your life of violence, but interesting.

Wow, it sounds like I really missed out on an interesting discussion from the old compendium!


As far as problem players go in my group, there's one chick who's pretty bad. She's emotionally unstable and likes to be the central PC in every story, an attention hog and control freak if she feels the story isn't going the way she wants. She has her good and bad days. Fortunately, I'm slowly on my way to nudging her out of the group! This must be done slowly as she's best friends with someone else in the group and I want to be careful.

 

[Flagg]

Wow' date=' it sounds like I really missed out on an interesting discussion from the old compendium![/quote']
Eh. You definitely missed a discussion. I don't know if "interesting" is the adjective I would have used.


-S

 

[Joseph]

This is what you said:

Wow' date=' it sounds like I really missed out on an interesting discussion from the old compendium! [/quote']
This is what you should have said:

Wow' date=' it sounds like I really missed out on an [b']incredibly boring conversation that mostly involved Jakk Bey trying to make his life of mindless violence seem reasonable while everyone told him he was an idiot[/b] from the old compendium!

 

[psychoph]

Besides those players that have personal issues with things, how do you deal with the players that are lazy, in my case not feelign liek writing up a background for their character or describing to me how they exalted?


I also have a player who feels like they need to know a ton of information about Exalted world before they feel comfortable putting down anythign about their character in writing?  The same player has refused to read the books I have and that I offered to let him borrow.  He has never played the game before, he is a ton of history role-palying, 2 years I have been playing with him and I am sure he has played for many years before that.  His tendency is definitely towards a min max personality, which I really don't care about for character creation because I find Exalted fairly well balanced and I can always deal with stats to combat him and make things difficult.  I am more interested in getting the RP out of him so that I have an idea of how he plans to play the character and if he is coudl become a problem in the game or not.

 

[Flagg]

Besides those players that have personal issues with things, how do you deal with the players that are lazy, in my case not feelign liek writing up a background for their character or describing to me how they exalted?

Bait them with XP?


-S

 

[psychoph]

I have done that with bonus points.  2 for getting it to me tonight, which is supposed to be first night of game, 2 for background, and 2 for exaltation.  The background and exaltation are on a scale they coudl get 0 or 1 for each as well ikf they are just ass.  All of the members of the group have been rping for at leat a year more liek 2+ which for me means there is an expectation that they should be good at this stuff.

 

[Heaven's Thunder Hammer]

This is what you said:

Wow' date=' it sounds like I really missed out on an interesting discussion from the old compendium! [/quote']
This is what you should have said:

Wow' date=' it sounds like I really missed out on an [b']incredibly boring conversation that mostly involved Jakk Bey trying to make his life of mindless violence seem reasonable while everyone told him he was an idiot[/b] from the old compendium!

Oh! Well then. Maybe not so bad that I missed it.

 

[psychoph]

My problem player seemed to work himself out with long conversatiosn and debate and then providing him more information.  


I have another problem player now however.  He is playing a Night caste solar and has decided he wants Terrestrial Sorcery starting out.  


I was knee deep in Artifacts and people wanting to start play that i didn't realize he had take it.  None of my players understand Sorcery or have read Savant and Sorcer other than for artifacts, including hte Twilight caste.


My personal view of exaltatiosn is that the charms and such that you get when you begin represent those things that your character probably mastered in his or her past lives, I dont' really see a night caste solar being a  great sorcerer in a previous life.


I have told the PC the three options that I saw for learnign sorcery.  1. The black and White treasise 2. A travel to the 5 elemental poles gleaning understanding at each I mentioned that the elemental pole of Earth was in the Realm and impossible for a solo Solar even night caste to get to without a lot of help. 3. A demon teaches you how to caste sorcery, My version of demons however are probably goign to fuck you over more than anything if they can especially if the demon you run into happens ot be the one you bound 1 thousand years ago to your manse.  So with that I tried to tell him i didn't see a Night caste picking up Terrestrial sorcery.


Does anyone else have any ideas how i might disuade him other than an out and out No, or do peopel think I am being unreasonable?