Players who won't go big

Tadanori Oyama

Tadanori Oyama

New Member
I've been running a game of Exalted for eight or nine sessions and I've been butting into the same problem since I started: my players don't play like they want to go big.


Alot of time is spent on planning to overcome fairly minor problems and outright avoiding risks and conflicts. I feel like I haven't done a through enough job of informing them how much their characters are capable of doing.


I'm looking for some good inspirations to give them: movies, books, pictures, just some things I can point them at a say "act kind of like this".
 
I've run them through the basics, yes. Greek myths, the Gilgamesh epic, Vampire Hunter D, some Norse myth, and light comparisons to DragonBall.


They seem to understand what their characters can do with their abilities and charms, at least in general, but they don't go out and do anything, they've been almost purely reactive rather than really pursuing their motivations.


I feel like I haven't inspired them and I'm not sure what to do to get them excited.
 
They may not be interested in the "motivation"s on their character sheets. It's a sucky thing, but it's the GM's job to figure out what the players actually want to do in the game. Also, keep in mind that they may not be used to the choice. Lots of roleplayers have only experienced games where they go on whatever adventure the GM has set forth. Hell, I still have problems being a non-reactive gamer because I started off playing reactive RPGs, and at a very young age (console gaming doesn't help this attitude either). It's a big problem, and hard to fix.


Try small steps. Proscribe end goals, but don't make it clear how they should get to them. Start on a small scale. You can do this in as small an increment as a scene or two ('get the idol' or something similar is an example of such a small-scale goal). Continue to broaden this out to entire sessions, and also work with them on figuring out what they want to do in the game (listen for sentences like 'wouldn't it be cool to...' and suggest that they go after it if it's possible to do in Exalted). Yes, this is more work than is fair to make you do, but they can't help not being proactive players. I wish I were better at it, and I'm working on it, but most people with the problem aren't even aware that they have it. Hell, you might fix things a bit just by telling them that they need to be more proactive.
 
I'll give that a try. Smaller, more visible goals might help them find a way to progress forward when larger, more distant ones are difficult.
 
Most games succeed or fail during character generation.


Talk over with the group:


> The game's core concept


> The group's structure, what it wants to achieve and how it does it.


> And only THEN let people design individual party members.


I.E.:


> Vengeance Quest


> A group of people from the same village who's families have been taken by the Big Bads


> Batman, Priest, etc.


You gotta give people motive during character gen and have them build characters around that motive.
 
That would have been an extremely good idea back at character generation. I've considered restarting and having characters rebuild around a shared motivation but have been avoiding it. That may be the simplest solution to the problem though.
 
I know it's probably cliched, but use the Matrix Trilogy as an example of Exalted:


Normal guy living mostly normal life.


Encounters crazy stuff.


Undergoes epic transformation.


Develops powers of AWESOME!!!â„¢ over a short, but pertinently interesting period.


Exhibits powers of AWESOME!!!â„¢ in epic rescue mission against other, previously unassailably powerful creatures.


Goes on to save the world.


Hopefully doesn't get killed by soul-destroying sucker punch that turns you into your worst enemy.....


Captain Hesperus
 
Never considered that. That will actually make for a very good example to give to some new players I'll be bringing into another game of Exalted as well.
 
I first ran Exalted way back when the first Edition was released. I made the mistake of running new players in a new system with only previous oWoD experience. It was an utter disaster. After that, I found that running a game where the players stat themselves as Heroic Mortals, spend a session realising how crappy life is as an UnExalted PC, then create moments of Exaltation where the players narrate their actions in a scene of WOW!!!!, rather than roll dice for them, worked far better. I found giving the players a short run up as standard humans and learning their limitations before giving them their Exaltations along with the helpful advice, "Remember all those limits I set on you? Forget them...", went a long way to encouraging epic action from the players. It was a process of working up.


Captain Hesperus
 
It's been a bit strange. One of my players played 1st Edition Exalted twice. The other two never played it. All of them played Old World of Darkness. I play New World of Darkness. Big mismatch of gaming experience all running together. That and I let the more experienced player play an Infernal because I thought he could handle it. He can... sort of, but he's not moving forward with his own plans ,more than anybody else is.
 
That would have been an extremely good idea back at character generation. I've considered restarting and having characters rebuild around a shared motivation but have been avoiding it. That may be the simplest solution to the problem though.
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Exalted is an absolute mindset shift. It's so different from regular RPG media that most players don't know what to do; they don't know how to change a world without prompting and don't know the setting to go out and do stuff. My plan for introduction Exalted, which has worked pretty well just recently, is:


> Run a "Walk the Earth" game, a group of wandering Solars walking from set-piece to set-piece. Curb stomp them socially a few times to make them aware of the values of social combat. Get them familiar with the attitude towards the setting. My session list was:


- First session in a rural village, local forest king goes tyrannical, they Exalt during the fight.


- Introduction to DB oppression and satrapy session


- Social combat with a lesser elemental dragon and then kung fu fight in the wreckage of an exploding skyship.


- Fight against an army and surfed an aircraft carrier onto the land.


- Introduction to shadowlands and ghosts


- Spirit rebellion and the Wrongness of Solar Cults.


Each session should be structured to introduce the PCs to a new setting element and concept, at least until they have the setting firmly in mind.


Also, Exalted is an incredibly cluttered setting. This is absolutely lethal to games. Focus, focus to a razor sharp point. Pick one or two groups of antagonists and stick with them. Examples:


Nexus Game: The Emissary and the Broken-Winged Crane (Demons)


North Game: The Underworld and it's corrupting religious influence


East Game: Spirits and Gods


Outliers can occur, but you can't fit the Yozi Reclaimation, the Underworld Apocalypse, Autobot, the Dragon Blooded and everything else in the same game. Pick any two and make them the everything.
 
I wonder if that has more to do with being reactive about their own party, rather then the game world itself. I've played in a few games where nobody did much of anything, not because their characters didn't have goals, but because the players were worried about the possible inter-party issues that might arise from them taking control and dragging the rest of the party along on their specific quest. Thus, because everyone was worried about pissing people off for taking over the campaign, nobody really did anything.
 
Aasharu said:
I wonder if that has more to do with being reactive about their own party, rather then the game world itself. I've played in a few games where nobody did much of anything, not because their characters didn't have goals, but because the players were worried about the possible inter-party issues that might arise from them taking control and dragging the rest of the party along on their specific quest. Thus, because everyone was worried about pissing people off for taking over the campaign, nobody really did anything.
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Alot of this going on, yes. Two of the players argue about stuff. Alot. The third hangs on the edges and tries to either stay out of things or defuse situations where he can. I tend to try and push them forward, trying to get them to react to things happening to them in the game if they don't push forward on their own.
 
I've had problems with this myself, though my players are slowing getting better. Some people, as Brickwell said, aren't entirely comfortable grabbing the spotlight and dragging the plot kicking and screaming behind them. Sometimes players need at least a bit of ST driven plot to play off of, even if Exalted lends itself extremely well to pure sandbox play. I kinda tried to split the difference and its worked out fairly well so far.


I set up a large plot (a war between Lookshy and Calin), that had no dependence on the PCs. They kept hearing rumors and reports of this war. Then they started seeing aftermath of skirmishes. Then they ran into a few Deathknights that were involved. This was over the course of about 7 or 8 sessions, in which they were traveling the Scavenger Lands. Eventually two of the players decided that the war seemed like a good way to get one Calin nation, slightly used, if they helped Lookshy quickly win the war. Once that happened, they all jumped onboard and are pushing the plot in directions I didn't see coming. Which is awesome.


Not sure if that rambling mess was any help, but I hope it was.
 
I agree, they probably do not know the basics:


- how can they get involved ?


- why would they be involved (virtues motivations and intimacies as well as themes can be used there) ?


- why must they be involved ?


It comes either from you, who have not spend sufficient time explaining to them the main concepts and epic scale, or from them (laziness, fear of risks, too many WoD).


I had the same problem with two players, old vampire players with a sadistic ST who liked to keep things - realistic -, and it took more than saying: exalt the fuck up to the guys to shake them off from years of mistrust and lack of risky initiatives.


I had to make them understand that the game and the ST generally favors the audacious as well as the bold and that it was up to them to build legendary characters or people who would be overshadowed by others... but I was lucky to have a natural born Zenith at the table at the time to show them the path of awesomeness.


Try to identify the problems, and their cause, talk to them, spend some time with them and do not hesitate to show them the way with a NPC so they can realize that they also have this ability to be awesome.


As for inspiration, I really recommend Matrix too, but also 12 kingdoms (the anime), Shin Angyo Onshi and Full Metal Alchemist (the mangas)... you can also have them watch 300 or watchmen and focus on the roles of Leonidas and Rorschach (extremists psychos... but fully grasping the stakes and acting accordingly at every moment, and awesome beyond comparison !).
 
I hope I'm reaching the point that your PCs reached, Indigo. I've been trying to give the players alot of options and I hope that I haven't given them so many that they are unable to select one. One of the PCs is motivated to return a specific McGuffin to his village up north but, for some reason, he and the others decided to bury it outside of Nexus for awhile rather than just going north, likely because (as above suggested) he didn't want to take control of the plot.


The biggest thread of plot (the one they've more or less grabbed hold of as a group) focuses around Lookshy planning to assault Gray Falls. I altered the Bull of the North's battle slightly so that it served as a general blow against the Realm as a whole, so Lookshy thinks their weak and now is the time to strike. The PCs are currently in Nexus where part of the Seventh Legion fleet is stopping over to meet with the Emissary before continuing onward.


While their in Nexus people start dying. One of the DragonBlooded officiers goes down and then another and then Anathema start flaring up and dying in various parts of the city. The PCs are approached by a nutty former Gold Faction Sideral who warns them that, in the future he's seen, two of them will die if they don't leave the city. I meant to nudge them into a direction since they'd stalled out but they don't leave the area, just the city, and wait around as more and more Exalted get chopped down by a mysterious masked figure, whom they eventually decide to try and lure into a trap.


Last session (number nine in total I think) ended with a stalemate when the masked warrior, who was clearly some kind of Exalted, retreated after taking a massive amount of damage without apparent harm.


Right now the plan is to talk with them before the next session and try to work out where the breakdown of desires is. I mean, maybe this is the way they want to play their games, and if that's the case than they don't really want to be playing Exalted.
 
It is possible that they were not ready yet for such scale and that your game moved too fast for them and as they could not adapt as quickly as they should have, they reproduced a known and comforting behavior from their experience with other games: shy but safe.


I succeeded at exalting the players when they finally realized that they could have a serious impact on the background and could take control of the plot and twist it however they wanted to provided they invested some efforts in it.


Things only got more and more interesting from that point on and we had a blast for 3 years.
 
I've been trying to scale up gradually, I might have moved up to fast. We opened with a purely individual problem: golbin army with one faerie commander holding a village captive. They eventually kicked his ass and moved along the river, following one of the PCs motivation elements: to retrieve a stolen artifact.


Over the course of nine sessions it's basically gone:


Save this village


Recapture the artifact


Help this Lunar (which they failed at by taking too long, she went Chimera)


They heard about the coming war


Sideral warned them they might be killed if they stay in Nexus


There is a mysterious killer in Nexus


They formed an alliance with the Lookshy troops, lured the killer into a trap, and nearly got their Dawn Caste killed because he didn't see the guy coming. They did manage to drive him off and now they have to decide what to do next.
 
I'm going to ask a stupid question, and I don't mean this as a slight towards you.


But do you know where things are headed? Do you have one or more background plots going on, that you know how they will progress without any player interaction? Do you have some interesting hooks dangling that your players just haven't noticed yet? or are you completely waiting for them to grab onto a bit of setting and run with it?
 
The coming war is probably what scares them a little, especially if there are imperials and lookshyans involved, I mean those guys got BFGs !


Just defuse the situation a bit, preserve both the statu quo and the tensions, and let them provoke the wars by their actions either on purpose or unwillingly/accidentally.


While you must have an evolving background behind your stories, it's rather important that the big steps be taken either by or because of the pcs IMHO.


There is a subtle difference between:


- the ST stating "there is a war coming, are you going to get involved ?!"


- and the players thinking "there might be a war and because of (whatever reason), we should get involved !" and in this case, the players need to master their roleplay but still have freedom of choice.


Let them make / affect the important choices and deal with the consequences, so their adventures won't drop on top of them but instead they will choose their path and write an epic story with you.
 
Yeah, I have a few background plots running. The coming war is actually a background plot since it didn't direct effect any of the PCs. It isn't in a place they care about or have ever even been to and it hasn't started yet, they just see troops moving and plans being made.


The only reason they've become involved with Lookshy is because the artifact one of the players was seeking was held by their troops, but they got that back five sessions ago (and then buried it). When they got the artifact they also got three captives: a Zenith Solar from farther east in the Savanger Lands, a Casteless Lunar who was becoming a Chimera, and a Daybreak Adyssal (though none of them managed to figure out who he was). The Solar joinned their circle after some convincing, the Lunar eventually changed fully into a Chimera and they killed her, and they release the Abyssal, who they last saw swimming downstream (he's another background plot).


Until just recently they'd been searching Nexus for a way to keep the Lunar from freaking out. Their plan was to get some Moonsilver, try and find historical records showing Pact Marks to copy, have their Twilight BS their own version of them, and have the Zenith doctor give her the tattoos.


So, yes, I'm trying to keep several plot lines running consistantly but focusing on whatever the players decide to interact with.


I tried to make things sound like Cyl's second option but the players might have heard the first. Lookshy is attacking Gray Fells because they believe the Realm is currently weak and because one of their major military leaders is being maniuplated by an Adyssal. I've tried to convey that the war is building up but hasn't really started yet. If they don't get involved it's going to go ahead (and likely be pretty messy). I think I have conveyed this but it's difficult to really know.
 
In all the games (and game types) that I've run, Exalted is the one made most frustrating by timid players. It pays to be timid in Call of Cthulu or Rifts, where PCs are actually much weaker than the average random enemy. Not so in Exalted, as we all know. I found that a good motivator is sometimes necessary to get players to take the action into their own hands.


One method that works well for me is to build a rapport between the party and some person or place, and then threaten it. If the village in the North were a smoking hole when they get back, they might get mad enough to do something about it. If they pick up some NPC allies or followers, they will certainly serve as a target for enemies. I had a Zenith once who had a mortal follower/apostle who I used to steer the story by having him kidnapped and sold into slavery while the party was away. Some players will embrace the Exalted station of their character and stop caring about any NPC who is not a bank or toybox, but if the NPC is well developed and close to the PCs, they are a great motivator.


Another story I ran involved the DB husband of a PC Solar. The husband was a veteran Wyld-Hunter and had an existential melt-down when his wife Exalted Solar. The characters loved each other, but he was devastated until she social-charmed the crap out of him and broke down his prejudices. He felt bound by honor to return to the Isle, renounce his commission, and accept the consequences. Nearly a year later the PC wife got an Infallible Messenger ,from the husband she thought was long dead, saying that he had escaped Imperial prison and made his way to the Threshold. He told her that he would be in the River Province and that his two Sworn Brothers had deserted with him. This was the prod I needed to get the party out of the South before the Locust Crusade so that my Alchemical plot could get rolling without being preemptively crushed by the party.


I know I'm running long here, but the point is to illustrate how useful a good NPC can be to not only motivating characters, but steering events in the game.
 
An NPC can be extremely useful. There is a good one that I can use for the Infernal party member. Part of her background involves an Abyssal she knew previously who has since been pulled back to a Deathland by his Deathlord for punishment. The Deathland is located quite close to the village previously mentioned (all the villagers have been captured or killed by this point so the returning to village in ashes thing was spot on). Unknown to the PC who's been seeking the artifact, that same artifact was what kept the Deathland from spreading close enough to the village to cause it harm, it's basically a big essence doorstop. He thought it just kept his village warm.


Rapport will be the next string I try to tug on.
 
Thanqol said:
Outliers can occur, but you can't fit the Yozi Reclaimation, the Underworld Apocalypse, Autobot, the Dragon Blooded and everything else in the same game. Pick any two and make them the everything.
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I would like to gently assert that this is a blatant lie. The hell you can't! I have a game that included all of that AND a Primordial ascension that still gives some of those players in Florida kneejerk reactions of terror and horror. It was a great game. Sure, I was a burned out, soulless husk after all was said and done, but I was 17 and having a fucking ball doing it. Never again will I run something like, with as much ass pull as it had during the endgame, but man, it was fun. I agree with the focus, but you can totally kitchen-sink it. Hell, one battle toward the endgame was a sick re-creation of the Usurpation AND Underworld Apocalypse and part Reclaimation. It was all kinds of fun and retarded. I've grown as a ST since, but I can't help but look back and laugh.
 
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