Overpowered Villans vs. Several Exalted (Problems).

[Aedryan]

I've been running an Exalted game for the last couple weeks and over the course of the campaign they've fought and trounced an infinite number of extras but at the end of a few adventures there is the inevitable boss battle and when pitting one or two opponents against 4 Solars, 2 Lunars, and a Dragon-blood the bosses have to be of significant power for the players not to destroy them in one or two rounds (And with my players, who go all out on the first attack it poses an even bigger problem).


So I make out the bosses to be fairly powerful and capable of returning damage to the players while fending them all off at the same time. Now some of the players are a little upset and feel that they aren't delivering on their end of the bargain because it takes to much effort to defeat one or two guys.


Now I don't mean to say that the players think they aren't powerful enough, they just think that they are doing something wrong because they shouldn't have so much trouble with one man, because some of them are Solar Exalted, the greatest warriors in all of creation, and should have no equal.


I tell them that there is a difference between experience and raw ability and the enemies they fight have been around for a long time and were sent to fight them 1 on 7 because they are that powerful. But still the question arises after every major battle.


I know I've been long winded and all but I just wanted to get my psuedo-question/problem out clearly so anyone have any advice, solutions, whatnot?


EDIT: I should say that they have not lost to any of the bosses, they just end up doing two or less points of damage a turn, and the villain usually returns with more significant strike. Weve been working up to a series of nemesis for my players but insofar it's just been one or two against the group.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Have them watch a lot more wuxia flicks. You can have one skinny ass Eunuch who can fight a dozen Shaolin monks and hold his own, and not even break a damn sweat.  


Perhaps you ought to pare up the adversaries. If your villains are smart, and they can see that their peers are getting geeked by a half a baker's dozen of Exalts who roll together like some Celestial posse, then maybe the villains need more back up.  Not Extras. But tailored foes for your PC's.


Not one, but an equal number. Or close to it. Something combat monsterish for the Lunars.  Something darned tootin' near to that for the Solars. Maybe even four seperate nasties.  One less nasty for the Dragon Blooded, or a whole slew of Extras, God Bloods, or a renegade DB or two to keep them busy. Instead of letting them get a mob scene, force them to engage, and be engaged equally, while your villain taunts them, perhaps a second time.  


After they use up some of the Essence, get a few good lumps, and defeat the goon squad, they'll be softened up enough that the villain can feel more confident, or if the goon squad is defeated, the villain can beat a hasty retreat.  He who runs away, after all.


You might also want to think about the stakes.  What about villains that they can't take out--protected by a spell, they need the bastiche alive, and the PC's know it, as does the villain.  What about a villain that is so insanely powerful, the PC's just get swatted down like flies each time they try, but the villain instead of killing them, makes them an offer they can't refuse?  I could kill you, but I think you'd be useful in taking out this pain in my ass, and since you seem bent on heroics, maybe it would interest you to know about the child slavery ring he runs...


If your villains are just standing there, waiting to be mowed down by this mob scene...they aren't being played anywhere near right.  Good villains don't just line up to get ganked.  Let them be smarter.  If your PC's are getting outwitted, they might handle that better than getting their butts handed to them in combat...

 

[Flagg]

I say you give them what they want. Let them mow down a few bosses in one turn -- in fact, make your bosses so pitiful that the first 2 or 3 people to win initiative kill them, leaving the others with nothing to do.


I think they'll quickly get the point.


-S

 

[uteck]

If thay want artifacts and the other nice things, thay are going to have to fight people who have them and will use them against the players.  Thay will quickely learn other ways to get these items, or die, or something much worse like start a new plot. :twisted:


Hit them with Memory Rewaeving Technique before combat starts, or some equlivalnt Charm,  I like doing that with my Eclipse.   Annoys the hell out of the ST.

 

[Sherwood]

Another option to try to even out the fight is to make the team move thru a mass of extras just good enough to deplete much of their Essence.  Then, they meet the Big Bad Guy, with a full Essence battery ready to go.  He can now afford to spend a chunk of points to deal out some ass kicking and soak damage and the players are more constrained with their point expenditures.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

First off, I'm of the camp that says that an ST should not make a game easier just because some Players whine about the circumstances.  You shouldn't kill them, that would be too easy on them, instead, perhaps the boss should beat them to a pulp and sell them to the Fair Folk.


Now, for game mechanics.  Solars are more powerful than any other character type at around 200 XP past character creation.  Before then, the Sidereals and the Lunars give them a good run for their money and, at character creation, will even beat them one-on-one.  In general, however, a Solar will be beat by a Sidereal or Lunar with twice their XP or by a DB with three times their XP.  A DB with 1500 XP (about age 250) will, in general, be able to kill off even seven beginning Solars without that much trouble.  Hell, he'll be able to beat any Solar with less than 500 XP.  Remember the old saying: age and treachery beats youth and talent everytime.


I occasionally have sent an Elder DB after a group of Solar players that have annoyed me, to show them humility.  I will save them, somehow, but I will show them that while they may be the chosen of the Unconquered Sun, they can still be killed by other Exalts.

 

[Gustav]

All these are great suggestions.


For my two cents, try mixing up combat with more non-combat story elements.  If they must fight someone make it have a lot of plot relevancy: don't let them polarize enemies into "us" and "them."  


The fight either can or cannot be the challenge, but the primary challenge that the combat savy Solars have is NOT combat.  It's weilding their powers responsibly.  If they have to fight someone make it their best friend, ex-lover, circle member, or a Gold Faction friend who's decided they're not on the right path of Fate anymore.


In those situations, slaughtering your opponent should drive home a much more pointed feeling than just chalking up another puddle of experience.


All these suggestions are based on my experience as an ST and methods I've seen Hanat-Osul use in his games that've made my Dawn (my namesake on here) a very tumultious and thoughtful individual rather than a "level 13 fighter LFG" if you get my point.

 

[Kajata]

In my games, I have a VERY mixed group, combat-wise, and so I tend to split people up.  I have a possy of DBs show up, some geared up more than others, to fight the group.  My Dawn breaks out the asswhoop and will go straight for the biggest toughest looking bugger, and that's his fight, and the other players choose the guys who it SEEMS like they can fight competantly.


Failing that, just have consecutive boss fights maybe?  But in the sense of


"In order to reach my master, first you must defeat me, and my bretherin monks, each one of us on a different level of the tower of DEATH!  Only then will you be allowed to fight Quan-Shu, our master!"


Each fight will be tough, but not a boss.  They're SUPPOSED to kill the ninja monk guys, but they're also supposed to take a few lethal HLs from every fight and lose maybe 10 motes or something, so they're nicely softened up by the time the "Master" fights them, at which point, the fight can become a desperate scramble to win, without the enemy being stupidly overpowered.  And if they whine just say "well, this guy is a DB/Sid monk who's trained for 100 years to become this good.  Can you say as much?"

 

[Gustav]

Well, Kajata, sounds like you've got it taken care of...


I hope some of us helped.   8)

 

[psychoph]

I would consider my NPC's power base.  How is it that the villain came about being the big bad boss?  When you figure that out you have how you present lieutenants and the boss to the PCs.


For example if the boss is a Dragon-Blood that has power because he is the best at group tactics and getting people to work together then they will try to beat your Players through numbers and strategy.  If however the boss is an Abyssal who was given several artifacts that make him or her more powerful than a Solar that is 200 years old then he or she is probably just gonna come at them solo.


If the Boss is someone who isn't personally powerful but knows how to widdle his or her opponent down such that they can either capture or defeat the PC's solo then you can have them throw wave after wave of extras or lieutenants to soften the PC's up.


IMO it all depends on what you and your player want.  I personally mix it up between the two based on different parts of the story and I usually do the boss behind the boss type stories so that the character only really foil the main bosses plans and take out the boss's minions.


Exalted is setup though that Abyssals, Sidereals and Lunars can most of the time be much more powerful than a circle of start Solars.  And usually that is due to age, knowledge, artifacts and manses.

 

[Jukashi]

If the Boss is someone who isn't personally powerful but knows how to widdle his or her opponent down such that they can either capture or defeat the PC's solo then you can have them throw wave after wave of extras or lieutenants to soften the PC's up.

Whittle. You meant whittle.

 

[Kajata]

That's what you'd LIKE to think, isn't it Jukashi?

 

[Forn Clakes]

If the Boss is someone who isn't personally powerful but knows how to widdle his or her opponent down such that they can either capture or defeat the PC's solo then you can have them throw wave after wave of extras or lieutenants to soften the PC's up.

Whittle. You meant whittle.

Agreed.  One should never be widdled upon.


Its so barbaric  


~FC.

 

[Solfi]

Agreed.  One should never be widdled upon.


Its so barbaric  

Google definition - Widdle:


"To Widdle is to play guitar fast. This is generally with reference to electric guitar, and in particular, more apt when applying it to someone from a rock or metal genre. Many other genres such as progressive/jazz etc exist for which the term "Widdling" could easily apply."

 

[Persell]

Intelligent terrain use can offset this problem a little.


Enemies in prepared terrain or terrain which naturally benefits their fighting style make far more dangerous adversaries and still stay believable.


Examples are stealth versed enemies in tunnels, badly lit areas, areas with magical sight impairing effects etc.


or skilled duelists in terrain where the group can not use the numerical superiority to full effect, slopes, staircases etc.


You still got one enemy but it is far more believable for him or her to stand up for the group for so long: "If it wasn't for all those moving shadows, we would have got her"

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Intelligent terrain use can offset this problem a little.
Enemies in prepared terrain or terrain which naturally benefits their fighting style make far more dangerous adversaries and still stay believable.


Examples are stealth versed enemies in tunnels, badly lit areas, areas with magical sight impairing effects etc.


or skilled duelists in terrain where the group can not use the numerical superiority to full effect, slopes, staircases etc.


You still got one enemy but it is far more believable for him or her to stand up for the group for so long: "If it wasn't for all those moving shadows, we would have got her"

Props for pointing out this essential tactical consideration.

 

[random5000uk]

One thing to try possibly is to place the boss in a position where the players can't just walk up to him and fight him.  Make him a diplomat or high-up rep of the Guild.


That way you can try to convince your players to take him on with sabotage and general sneakiness, our groups done this before, and it was fun...


despite the ref being a bit underhanded with his npc

 

[Kajata]

My problem when I try and do that with my players is that they just say "so?"  yank out their swords, kill the guy, then either kill whatever consequences come about or just run away

 

[Jakk Bey]

Then trap the bitches.  


Seriously.  Make them pay for their actions.


They like to charge full on ahead?  Great.  The baddy is in vault, deep in the earth, hordes of nasties have given their unlives to protect their dread master, and when the PC's roll in to open up that #10 can of Whoop Ass on him, the illusion waves as it fades away.


Then the 10 ton block of stone falls behind them.  And the undead minions collapse the passages that led your PC's to the their tomb.  


Now, they have to figure out what they're going to be breathing in a few hours.  


The PC's must have a reputation by now.  Use that against them.  Their enemies are going to know their tactics, and are going to use that against them.  Say, poisoning them as they enter their area--borne on incense, the PC's breathe in a toxin that causes them to burn twice  as much Essence as normal AND each level of Anima blow up causes one point of Aggravated damage.   Go ahead, go for the Charms.


Let's not forget that Spirits are going to hear about this as well, and maybe they're not going to be inclined to help--too much metaphysical heat for them.  


You need smarter antagonists, not more powerful.  A couple of encounters that negate their power, put them on the defensive, and turn the tables on them...that might learn them a bit.

 

[Persell]

Then trap the bitches.  
Seriously.  Make them pay for their actions.


They like to charge full on ahead?  Great.  The baddy is in vault, deep in the earth, hordes of nasties have given their unlives to protect their dread master, and when the PC's roll in to open up that #10 can of Whoop Ass on him, the illusion waves as it fades away.


Then the 10 ton block of stone falls behind them.  And the undead minions collapse the passages that led your PC's to the their tomb.  


Now, they have to figure out what they're going to be breathing in a few hours.  


The PC's must have a reputation by now.  Use that against them.  Their enemies are going to know their tactics, and are going to use that against them.  Say, poisoning them as they enter their area--borne on incense, the PC's breathe in a toxin that causes them to burn twice  as much Essence as normal AND each level of Anima blow up causes one point of Aggravated damage.   Go ahead, go for the Charms.


Let's not forget that Spirits are going to hear about this as well, and maybe they're not going to be inclined to help--too much metaphysical heat for them.  


You need smarter antagonists, not more powerful.  A couple of encounters that negate their power, put them on the defensive, and turn the tables on them...that might learn them a bit.

All great examples, but you have to be really careful with taking away/negating powers in my experience. Some players do not take that too well and it can severly lessen the enjoyment they have in gaming. Yes once for a good story, but making it a standard tactic is not such a good idea often.

 

[Solfi]

... just make sure there is a (not too complex) way out for those who use their heads and a bit of caution. Perhaps give them some in-game warning, for instance in the form of a native ("none who entered have returned! 'Tis a place of malevolent intent and deadly traps!").


If they whine, show them how they could have prevented what happened. Besides, if this is such a problem, you should be asking them (and maybe yourself) what the hell you are playing this game for in the first place.


If they sincerely want a hack&slash-fest, you can always change the focus of the game ... such a game wouldn't be a satisfying game experience for me and (I am guessing) you by a long shot, but forcing them into a game-mold they just don't want to fit in will probably come to nothing good.


Besides, like Stillborn said earlier in the thread, if you give them what they want, they'll probably come around after they realize that glory gained without actual effort isn't really worth anything in the long run.

 

[Jakk Bey]

Safim--What you make standard are better villains. Smarter villains.  Not traps and boojums.  But let your antagonists be smarter than: "I'm over here, O Army of the Celestial Host, With All Your Pointy Things!"


Your PCs keep using the same tactics, then you hang them up on them.  They'll learn fast enough.  And they'll respect their opponents more.  If they keep running headong into the same trap, then you might want to drop hints for them that maybe they're just rehashing the rush of Noo8 at Tekken who likes that overhand right of King just a little too much.


You change it up, when they change it up.  Not to trump them at every move, but certainly to make them respect their foes.  And challenge them. Challenge isn't always guys with pointy things.  And if they think that is all there is, then maybe you need to examine what you're putting on the table for them.


It's a mistake to use raw power instead of good tactics.  The MoW is a good villain, not because he's got a lot of dots in things, but because he's got flavor, and is supposed to be smart as all get out.  Chejop is a bad ass, not because he's super-duper Martial Artist, but because he's smart, and if played correctly, the PCs should never get into a confronation with an antagonist of that calibur where the scene hasn't already been scripted by the villain.

 

[Persell]

I did not say anything against using tactics. It is just that the mechanics behind essence disrupture etc. often frustrate players and I would always take a look at my group before doing something like that.

 

[Kajata]

Yeah, I've experienced what Safim is getting at before, where I've taken away some advantages they have, explained it rationally and reasonably, and the players, the combative ones at least, tend to be annoyed because they can't use their smackdown charms all the time, which creates a bad mood.  I'd love to just say "well, this is the way I want to play my game, like it or not", but I've had to train 4/5 of my players up from scratch, as they'd never even heard of a table-top RPG before I introduced them.  I'm a low-gamer area, so losing one of my players can be a serious blow, despite the fact that they're my friends as well.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

So, get them used to the idea.


 Throw different types of minions against them, with nifty oddball powers that can deprive the characters of favored battle techniques. The minions should still fall relatively easily, but the characters should get a scare out of it, if only imagining what a more powerful opponent could have done to them with those techniques...


 Essence deprivation isn't the only thing you can throw at them; forced combat-time deattunement of artifacts, dissolution of scene-length defensive charms...there are plenty of other ideas to really throw a scare into the characters.


 After that, if they don't prepare for the possibility that the protagonist would be packing something superior to their minions... <evil grin>