Motivation and Virtue Loss

[Jukashi]

I'm probably just not looking hard enough, but is there any description of the mechanics for changing your Motivation after losing Virtues?


Example: Bob Solar's Motivation is to "Prevent as much suffering as possible for the mortals of Creation". This motivation is clearly rooted in his compassion, which is 5. However, Bob gets nabbed by a Fair folk and gets his Compassion sucked down to 1. What happens to his Motivation?


Is there a particular set of rules, or does the ST just say "pick another one, Bob"?

 

[memesis]

Is there a particular set of rules, or does the ST just say "pick another one, Bob"?

"Pick another one" sounds fine to me.  Is there some reason it's not sufficient?

 

[Jukashi]

Well, people are creatures of habit sometimes. I thought perhaps they might retain the motivation, but have it twisted by the shift in their emotional state. Or perhaps keep pursuing the motivation, but lose the capacity to regain willpower each morning due to their heart not being in it anymore. Or even gain a derangement or two, extreme depression for example, as the thing you built your whole life towards suddenly doesn't matter so much any more.

 

[Dracogryff]

Well, for me, it'd depend on the individual. A number might quite likely gain a new motivation of 'Destroy the fey who did this to me' or similar, so long as they remember being ravaged. Others might remember being more than a cruel and heartless bastard and thus then go onto a quest to rediscover what they lost (a motivation to 'relearn how to be the person I once was'), and so forth...it all depends on the player. I'd ask for their input, watch how they play their character after such an event, and if what they do seems inappropriate to what they chose as a path (be it keep motivation or change it) I'd insist they rethink said decision.


Might not work for everyone, though. Just what I'd do.

 

[StarHawk]

I wish I could find my book so I could site the page for you, but I read about motivations recently, and a character in order to change it must take major drawbacks for changing it.


To answer your question, it's a little bit of both. You're stuck with your motivation until it's completed. If your motivation isn't epic enough, or too bloody epic and vague the ST can opt for you to change it, or you take drawbacks (I don't recall what kind) and change it yourself through play.


I don't remember virtues having anything to do with your motivation. Though I do know if your highest virtue drops you have to pick a new virtue flaw...?

 

[Persell]

Well, people are creatures of habit sometimes. I thought perhaps they might retain the motivation, but have it twisted by the shift in their emotional state.

I have experience with this one a bit.  I've toyed with the rules in term of losing a virtue to the point where motivations no longer seem  to make sense.  The best way I've found is to take the motivation and pervet it via justification.


Compassion 5: The character does not want to see people suffer so he does all in his power to assist them and their life styles to make things better for them.  Sacrificing his time and energy to seeing friends, family and people happy and contend.


Compassion 1: "I love all of you, I really do, and that is why I know in ny heart of hearts that this endeavor is hopless.  Right now, the best gift I could give to you is death.  Consider it a release from this pain and suffering that goes on all around you."  <Proceeds to slaughter friends and family, wearing the skin from their faces like a mask while he does his little kooky-dance>


In both examples (albiet the second is extreme I know) the Solar honestly feels he is doing the right thing, helping the people to no longer suffer.


Dracian had a stint with his Temperance being almost nonexistant so he spent most his time drunk and wallowing in self pity.  Ahh... nothing like taking on Blood Apes while shit faced drunk, minimal melee skills, and no melee charms...  those were the good ol' days.

 

[Ned]

I wish I could find my book so I could site the page for you, but I read about motivations recently, and a character in order to change it must take major drawbacks for changing it.

If I remember correctly you just had to spend xp?


Although I'd let people change their motivations if anything major happend in their life for free. In Jukashi's example I'd let him change for no cost.

 

[Persell]

related note can I spend XP to "Shed" virtue dots...


for example if I'm Chejop Kejak can I get rid of what once made me a decen human being and become a cold blooded killer without  a shred fo remorse or decensy?


Do you think it should be allowable...


I'd get pretty angry if my ST said "oh wait you didnt go out of your way to free those slaves, so I'm knocking you a compassion dot but theirs some actions opposed to virtues that I feel should get a dot taken...

 

[Persell]

I'd get pretty angry if my ST said "oh wait you didnt go out of your way to free those slaves' date=' so I'm knocking you a compassion dot but theirs some actions opposed to virtues that I feel should get a dot taken...[/quote']
At the risk of repeating another very long thread... That's what Limit Break is for.

 

[Vanman]

Yeah, but Limit Break doesn't cause you to lose any dots of that particular virtue which, if I'm reading correctly, is PT's main question.


I think it should be allowable, but it would be part of a major storyline, IMO. It would take an awful lot to cause a virtue to fall, and would probably take a lot of time, as well.


I don't know if spending XP would be necessary. Maybe you spend a small amount that allows you move dots around? So you lose some compassion and gain some conviction - that sort of thing. I think a lot of it would depend on the player, too. These are just rough opinions based on initial thoughts. I'm not totally convinced this is a good thing.....

 

[Persell]

Yeah, but Limit Break doesn't cause you to lose any dots of that particular virtue which, if I'm reading correctly, is PT's main question.

Right.   Should have expanded what I was saying.


You buy Virtues to higher ratings with experience.  I don't think it would really work in reverse without some house ruling.  Not aiding some slaves on a couple of occasions could warrants a couple of points of Limit, depending on the person's Compassion, motivation, personality and if they failed their Virtue check or not.  


Regularly disdaining people in need and/or ignoring their plights over an extended period of time may warrant either one hell of a Limit Break or loss of Compassion, based on the character's personality and motivation.


I wouldn't charge XP for loss of Virtue dots, if the player went out of their way to indicate exactly how callous or cowardly or self-indulgent or unreliable their characters were becoming.   It should, imho, be done through RP, not experience expenditures (though XP would have to be spent to raise the rating again).

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

Spending XP to lower virtues? That would seem like spending xp to lower your Essence or Strength. Not really something wothy of buying something. now, if after a little bit of play we realize that someone's character conept has different virutes than they thought, I'll likely allow them to move them to where they should be...like the fop that turns out not to be quite as intemperate as planed, but instead to be lacking in conviction... However, after that, you should have your concept pretty much in hand. If you're playing Mr. Compassion 5 and acting like an asshole and killing people for the fun of it, first I'm going to start docking your xp for poor roleplay and pull you aside and have a talk with you. If you don't shape up, and are already past a chance at making sure the character is correct to it's concept...then there is a problem...more likely on the player's part.