More Lunar Charm (and Knack) ideas

[Dracogryff]

First off, Lore5 needs a Knack submission section. But oh well. Not completely relevant at the moment. (Might be eventually, though.)


Let's toss these out there for the sharks to chew on, shall we?

Velvet Sheathed Talons
Prerequisites: Changing Plumage Mastery, Prey's Skin Disguise, Appearance 4, Essence 3


Sometimes one doesn't want to show off their claws just yet. This Knack allows a Lunar to choose whether or not to keep wearing any appropriate gear when shifting into a new form. If they do not wish it so, the gear is stored Elsewhere for the time being. If they wish to retrieve their gear from Elsewhere, they must shapeshift again, whether it be into a new form or the same one, just with the intend to have the desired article present this time.


When a Lunar chooses to shapeshift into any form, they may look at all gear that would logically fit onto that form and decide whether or not it remains on that form as they take it. So if a Lunar wishes to not have their artifact armor present when trying to look like a helpless child, they can choose when shifting into the child's form to send their armor Elsewhere. It will then remain there until the Lunar shifts into a form where they do wish to be wearing the armor. In the case of artifacts, the Lunar must be committed to the artifact for this Knack to function. Decommitting the motes while it is Elsewhere will cause it to be lost forever.

Largely, this stemmed from the fact that it states that gear shows up on all appropriate forms...however, there are times when you might want to be able to quickly jump into your war form with armor and weapons...but carrying such around when pretending to be something like a concubine would be wildly inappropriate.

Gift of Moon's Essence
Cost: -


Mins: Charisma 4, Essence 4


Type: Permanent


Keywords: Training


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite Charms: Nature-Reinforcing Allocation, Sharing the Gifts of Luna


This Charm permanently upgrades Nature-Reinforcing Allocation, giving it the option to also teach those endowed with Sharing the Gifts of Luna Lunar Charms instead of one of the other options. The Lunar must know the Charm in order to teach it, or have someone willing to assist them in the training who knows it.

Largely based on the fact that familiars as written don't get any XP...so how else in the nine are they going to benefit from Sharing the Gifts of Luna (other than now having a perfectly useless Essence of 2)?


Might add more later. Still trying to figure out what the most appropriate attribute to base a Ghost eating Knack off of would be.

 

[Flagg]

First off, Lore5 needs a Knack submission section.

I'll see what I can do.

 

[Vanman]

Velvet Sheathed Talons
Prerequisites: Changing Plumage Mastery, Appearance 4, Essence 3


Sometimes one doesn't want to show off their claws just yet. This Knack allows a Lunar to choose whether or not to keep wearing any appropriate gear when shifting into a new form. If they do not wish it so, the gear is stored elsewhere for the time being. If they decide that they do wish to have such articles on that form, they must change into it a second time.

Largely, this stemmed from the fact that it states that gear shows up on all appropriate forms...however, there are times when you might want to be able to quickly jump into your war form with armor and weapons...but carrying such around when pretending to be something like a concubine would be wildly inappropriate.

I like the idea, but I'm a bit confused as to the last line. Does that mean if I want my character to have some of his gear in his new form, he has to change, where everything disappears, and then change again, where the desired items appear? In other words, is the nature of the charm that all of your gear disappears? Or does it mean that, if you choose not to have any gear when you originally change, to bring that gear back you have to change once more? Like I said, I'm confused. An explanation of this might serve to eliminate (at least my) confusion.

Gift of Moon's Essence
Cost: -


Mins: Charisma 4, Essence 4


Type: Permanent


Keywords: Training


Duration: Permanent


Prerequisite Charms: Nature-Reinforcing Allocation, Sharing the Gifts of Luna


This Charm permanently upgrades Nature-Reinforcing Allocation, giving it the option to also teach those endowed with Sharing the Gifts of Luna Lunar Charms instead of one of the other options. The Lunar must know the Charm in order to teach it, or have someone willing to assist them in the training who knows it.

Largely based on the fact that familiars as written don't get any XP...so how else in the nine are they going to benefit from Sharing the Gifts of Luna (other than now having a perfectly useless Essence of 2)?

I don't know that I have much to say about this one, other than it sounds good. I have no experience with familiars. At all. So I no knowledge of how they actually work in game. I understand the concept, but I haven't seen them played. If they can't learn charms, then this seems like a nice fix.

Might add more later. Still trying to figure out what the most appropriate attribute to base a Ghost eating Knack off of would be.

Well, the Essence charms that can see and/or hurt spirits are in Perception, so that might be the most appropriate stat. Not only that, but Eye of the Cat allows a Lunar to see anything that's not a valid target for a Perception roll. I don't remember exactly how ghosts work, but if they can't be seen, then Perception seems to be the stat. Otherwise, Manipulation might work (in that the character "manipulates" the ghost into being eaten).


Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[Dracogryff]

I like the idea, but I'm a bit confused as to the last line. Does that mean if I want my character to have some of his gear in his new form, he has to change, where everything disappears, and then change again, where the desired items appear? In other words, is the nature of the charm that all of your gear disappears? Or does it mean that, if you choose not to have any gear when you originally change, to bring that gear back you have to change once more? Like I said, I'm confused. An explanation of this might serve to eliminate (at least my) confusion.

First off, thanks much for the feedback, and thanks, Flagg, for looking into Knacks for Lore5. But the intent is that when you change into a form, at that moment, you can look at all the gear you'd have that would fit on it (AKA, turning into a human? Your clothes, armor, weapon, Collar of Dawn's Cleansing Light, etc all fit on this form) and go, 'okay, what do I actually want this human I'm pretending to be to have of that stuff. The person in question is supposed to be a concubine, so the weapons and armor are right out (so you choose to send them elsewhere), the clothing is optional, but hey, you might get into more trouble than you want for tritting around in your birthday suit, so you'll keep it for now, and the Collar really depends on whether you're pretending to be an rich guy's favored play-toy or not. Sure, a mortal concubine can't attune to it...but it is pretty and...hmm. Does it still have the 'I make you spiffy clean whether or not I'm attuned' bit, or is it all attuned only now?


Anyhow. *de-tangents* Getting back to this concubine that is sans your spiffy armor and weapon. Let's say that for some reason you want that weapon in that form. The last line is supposed to mean that you just go and turn into that human form again, but this time choose to have the weapon with it instead of not.


I'm still not sure whether or not I'm making sense...but all I'm trying to do is make it so you can't just go, 'hey I want my stuff back' and piff, it's back. You actually have to shapeshift to pull it back out of elsewhere. Nothing says you can't change into the same form from itself, so...hmm.

Velvet Sheathed Talons
Prerequisites: Changing Plumage Mastery, Appearance 4, Essence 3


Sometimes one doesn't want to show off their claws just yet. This Knack allows a Lunar to choose whether or not to keep wearing any appropriate gear when shifting into a new form. If they do not wish it so, the gear is stored elsewhere for the time being. If they wish to retrieve their gear from Elsewhere, they must shapeshift again, whether it be into a new form or the same one, just with the intend to have the desired article present this time.


When a Lunar chooses to shapeshift into any form, they may look at all gear that would logically fit onto that form and decide whether or not it remains on that form as they take it. So if a Lunar wishes to not have their artifact armor present when trying to look like a helpless child, they can choose when shifting into the child's form to send their armor Elsewhere. It will then remain there until the Lunar shifts into a form where they do wish to be wearing the armor.

How'zat? I think that makes it clearer.


And as to the other...there's nothing stating that Allies, Henchmen or Familiars get any XP ever, other that ST caveat decisions on such...so the fact that Sharing the Gifts of Luna is supposed to allow the critter you use it on to learn Lunar Charms kind of useless...since they have no way to buy 'em. But yeah...not much else to say about it.


As to Ghost-eating...Perception does sound like a good choice...I was trying to pick between it or Appearance.


Let's see.

Draught of Death's Essence
Prerequisites: Prey's Skin Disguise, Perception 5, Essence 4


This Knack makes Ghosts valid targets for the Sacred Hunt. Even though they don't normally have blood, so long as the Lunar consumes a portion of their vital essence, they can now assume the form of a ghost. They do not gain any Charms or essence based powers that the ghost knew. They are, however, forced into the Underworld if it is daylight out, and will need to find their own way back out. They are also potentially destroyed if they foolishly choose to turn into a Hungry Ghost when the sun is up. For each tick they spend as a Hungry Ghost in daylight, they take an unsoakable level of aggravated damage.


As this Knack destroys the soul entirely, pulling it out of the cycle of reincarnation, it is not one to learn or use lightly, as it offends many with it's unnatural bent.

Not sure about the shoving them into the Underworld and taking damage as a hungry ghost bits...comments, advice or critisism there would be greatly appreciated. Also trying to decide whether it really should be required to know Prey's Skin Disguise before being able to learn it. Make a sort of sense...have to be able to turn into people before knowing how to turn into dead people...but I could also see where it wouldn't be needed...what do people say?

 

[Persell]

Knacks look good, but I'm a bit confused on what you need a ghost eating technique for.   My understanding of Spirit-Maiming Essence Attack (pg 179) has the perma-kill effect that is signature of ghost eating, was there some other effect you wanted?

 

[Vanman]

Velvet Sheathed Talons
Prerequisites: Changing Plumage Mastery, Appearance 4, Essence 3


Sometimes one doesn't want to show off their claws just yet. This Knack allows a Lunar to choose whether or not to keep wearing any appropriate gear when shifting into a new form. If they do not wish it so, the gear is stored elsewhere for the time being. If they wish to retrieve their gear from Elsewhere, they must shapeshift again, whether it be into a new form or the same one, just with the intend to have the desired article present this time.


When a Lunar chooses to shapeshift into any form, they may look at all gear that would logically fit onto that form and decide whether or not it remains on that form as they take it. So if a Lunar wishes to not have their artifact armor present when trying to look like a helpless child, they can choose when shifting into the child's form to send their armor Elsewhere. It will then remain there until the Lunar shifts into a form where they do wish to be wearing the armor.

How'zat? I think that makes it clearer.

Indeed it does. That's what I thought it did - or, at least, it seemed the most logical - but I just wanted to make sure

Draught of Death's Essence
Prerequisites: Prey's Skin Disguise, Perception 5, Essence 4


This Knack makes Ghosts valid targets for the Sacred Hunt. Even though they don't normally have blood, so long as the Lunar consumes a portion of their vital essence, they can now assume the form of a ghost. They do not gain any Charms or essence based powers that the ghost knew. They are, however, forced into the Underworld if it is daylight out, and will need to find their own way back out. They are also potentially destroyed if they foolishly choose to turn into a Hungry Ghost when the sun is up. For each tick they spend as a Hungry Ghost in daylight, they take an unsoakable level of aggravated damage.


As this Knack destroys the soul entirely, pulling it out of the cycle of reincarnation, it is not one to learn or use lightly, as it offends many with it's unnatural bent.

Not sure about the shoving them into the Underworld and taking damage as a hungry ghost bits...comments, advice or critisism there would be greatly appreciated. Also trying to decide whether it really should be required to know Prey's Skin Disguise before being able to learn it. Make a sort of sense...have to be able to turn into people before knowing how to turn into dead people...but I could also see where it wouldn't be needed...what do people say?

Well, Green Sun Child doesn't have any prerequisites, so if that doesn't have any, I'm not sure this one should need any. The only caveat here is ghosts are a whole lot tougher to hunt than demons, IMHO, because they don't actually have a form to hunt, whereas demons do. Well, they can materialize, at least. I don't remember if ghosts can or not. The other thing to take into consideration is that ghosts are kind of antithetical to Lunars. Lunars are masters of life, ghosts are dead. I can understand hunting demons, somewhat, because they are a perverted sort of life, but ghosts aren't. At least in my viewpoint. I also don't have a problem with ghosts being forced into the Underworld - though you may want to make it a Shadowland, since Shadowlands have at least some connection to Creation - because, otherwise, the Lunar would effectively die. However, this might just be a consequence of hunting ghosts - if you change into one in daylight, you take the damage.

Knacks look good, but I'm a bit confused on what you need a ghost eating technique for.   My understanding of Spirit-Maiming Essence Attack (pg 179) has the perma-kill effect that is signature of ghost eating, was there some other effect you wanted?

The knack allows the Lunar to hunt a ghost and take its shape, not just kill it. Two different effects here.

 

[Persell]

hmm, right for some reason I was thinking ghost eating techniques like the solars have.. more sleep or caffine might be needed, most likely the later as it is easier to come by.


As for a ghost eating knack.  I would make Intimate Training Recollection a pre-req since ghost are more of echos fof the former person the ability to consume part of the soul should be required.  A argument for Green Sun child as a pre-req could be made since then you can munch things without blood.  Although if you go with both then it seem int would be the better stat for pre-req.


I do concur with Vanman that ghost eating is a bit weird for the lunar life motif.  I'm also a little puzzled as to what would happen to a lunars essense regaining and if thier 'extra' soul (hun or po depending on which one they didn't eat) would go elsewhere when they transformed.


An interesting follow up charm for Draught of Death Essense could be this


Herding the lost spirits


Prerequisites: Draught of Death's Essense, Flickering Star infusion


This knack suplements Draught of Death Essense allowing the Lunar to force the ghostly target of a sarcred hunt back into the cycle of reincarnation, after the lunar dies.

 

[Fruan]

I've hashed over a ghost-form knack myself and ended up coming to the conclusion that it was out of theme, and that Lunars shouldn't have this power. Obviously you're free to disagree and let them have it in your games, but allow me to cover my reasoning:


1) Lunars feed of "life force" to gain shapechanging. Ok, so I don't think that specific term is ever used, but it's the way the mechanic is flavoured. Animal forms require hearts blood, and weirder things are a little more abstract, and the process is always fatal to the subject (Unless it's only going to be temporary). Ghosts feel separated from this flavor, as they are already dead. (As an aside, before I finally gave up on it, I worked with the idea of having to consume a fetter belonging to a ghost to take their form - Could be interesting)


2) Shapechaning into a ghost bleeds into both Necromancy and Abysal powers. While the realm of every Exalt type's powers aren't set in stone, and there are certainly overlaps, this feels to me very much like pushing Lunars too far into what is clearly defined as belonging elsewhere. (Another aside - You could perhaps minimize this by having the knack have the first circle of necromancy as a pre-req, although a charm as a pre-req for a knack is without precedent)


3) This could be a mechanical nightmare with moliation. I don't know how elaborate the moliation rules in 2E are going to be, but just thinking about it fills me with questions - Does the Lunar's tatoos prevent moliation from working on them at all, as it is essentially a shapeshifting power? If so, that's a pretty crappy impersonation of a ghost. If moliation is allowed, what's to stop a lunar getting one ghost form and then moliating to look like any ghost they want to impersonate? Getting rid of the cost of only impersonating things you have destroyed might make the Silver Prince's Lunar servants scarily powerful in the intrigues of the dead. Good luck with this one - it's what ultimately made me give up on the idea.

 

[Dracogryff]

Herding the lost spirits
Prerequisites: Draught of Death's Essense, Flickering Star infusion


This knack suplements Draught of Death Essense allowing the Lunar to force the ghostly target of a sacred hunt back into the cycle of reincarnation, after the lunar dies.

That's a pretty cool idea. I like it.


And as to the complications listed, Fruan. I do believe that you have some good points...but that's more thinking than I feel is necessary in a game, myself. I also was going off the fact that Domino, AKA Peter Schaefer, writer of Lunar Charms and Knacks, commented that the only reason there wasn't a ghost eating Knack was due to lack of space, so I wasn't really worrying about the logical aspect of it.


Donno. Will look into it some more. Thanks for the advice. I've never looked at moliation, so I really have no idea what it does, either.


Additionally, kind of a tangent, but hey. Thoughts on porting the Tough mutation of 1E...


I liked the idea of the mutation, but as it was in 1E, it was rather overpowered for its level, especially considering it had no visible effect on one's appearance, nor any other drawbacks. I've been considering how to make it more in line with the level it's supposed to be...


My thoughts are to do something like the following:


Tough: people affected by this mutation gain 1 point of Stamina, and are capable of soaking lethal with their full Stamina score.


The other thought is to have it add a -1 and -2 health level and soak with full Stamina instead of adding a point to Stamina. I'm throwing the addition to Strength right out the window, since it's really not in line with the rest of the benefits, or exactly with the concept of 'toughness' (as in, 'able to take it') in general. It would also be a mutation that would not be takable with DBT, like Large and it's expansions, if I added it, personally. *shrugs*


I suppose it could also add the health levels, the point of Stamina and sull lethal soak...but I think that's a bit much. I'm not sure. Soaking lethal with your full stamina score is a powerful effect in it's own right, after all...and with no visible change to the character, it might be too much to give all three...

 

[Persell]

Tough could always be a tiered mutation, similar to the natural armor mutations. 1pt: extra Stamina ; 3pts: previous benefits, plus Soak=full Stamina ; 6pts: previous benefits, plus extra -1 and -2 health levels.


By the time you're at full Blight status its powerful, but you're also paying a good chunk of your Mutation points for it too. Seems like it would be perfect for certain Spirit Shapes too, like a bull (1pt version),  or a rhino or mammoth (6pt version).

 

[Dracogryff]

Masking the True Form
Prerequisites: Constant Quicksilver Rearrangement, Wits 6, Essence 5


Sometimes it is useful to have a few more tricks up one's sleeve at any given time. This Knack allows a Lunar to blur the lines between forms they have aquired through the sacred hunt and their Spirit Shape. When purchasing this Knack, a Lunar may choose (Essence) other forms that now count as True Forms for the purposes of being able to transform into them, though not for natural attributes.


A Lunar may purchase this Knack multiple times, each time adding (Essence) more forms. However, each time they take this Knack, it gives the Lunar a point of Permanent Limit. Most other Lunars will also look at those that take this Knack with concern, as loss of one's true form is one of the signs of Chimeraism, and this weakens the lines between Spirit Form and other forms.

Another Knack idea. Not sure whether I like it or not, but due to Constant Quicksilver Rearrangement's commentaries about reflexively shifting in combat and the fact that one cannot do that once you've spent 8+ peripheral motes and Lunars are mote-munchers...


Eh. Mostly not sure the requirements are all right. Can't decide if it should be Essence 6 Min, nor am I certain how many forms I should allow with it...comments?

 

[Skari-dono]

I only saw this thread for the first time now, otherwise I would have posted this sooner.


Velvet Sheathed Talons is somewhat troubling I think. To be more precise, the part about sending the items to Elsewhere is what troubles me, as well as the part where it has no limit to the number of items that can be sent there. There is a Lunar Charm, Many-Pockets Meditation, page 191, that allows you to send items to Elsewhere. With VST that Charm becomes very much redundant.


Let's compare:


1) MPM requires Wits 3 and Essence 3 (but its prerequisite Charm requires Wits 4), and VST requires Appearance 4 and Essence 3.


2) MPM has two prerequisite Charms (or, one Charm that has another prereq. Charm), but VST only has one prereq. Knack.


3) MPM costs 2m per item that must be commited. VST does not cost anything to use.


4) MPM has a limit of only applying to as many items as the character's Essence score. VST has no such limit.


I think there needs to be more balance between the two for the Knack to truly work. I would suggest a different approach, like making it only appear as the items weren't there and compare a trait to a target's MDV or something.


Other than that, it's a nice work.

Masking the True Form
Prerequisites: Constant Quicksilver Rearrangement, Wits 6, Essence 5


Sometimes it is useful to have a few more tricks up one's sleeve at any given time. This Knack allows a Lunar to blur the lines between forms they have aquired through the sacred hunt and their Spirit Shape. When purchasing this Knack, a Lunar may choose (Essence) other forms that now count as True Forms for the purposes of being able to transform into them, though not for natural attributes.


A Lunar may purchase this Knack multiple times, each time adding (Essence) more forms. However, each time they take this Knack, it gives the Lunar a point of Permanent Limit. Most other Lunars will also look at those that take this Knack with concern, as loss of one's true form is one of the signs of Chimeraism, and this weakens the lines between Spirit Form and other forms.

I just don't get how this one works. But that's just me. An example of use would be nice, but that's probably asking for too much

 

[Dracogryff]

Long and short of it is that a Lunar cannot shift into forms other than their Human form, Spirit form and War form if they spend more than 8 motes of peripheral essence. This actually isn't all that hard to do, with Gift-OK, Fury-OK and Excellencies in a fight, and really fast. I've done it in perhaps two rounds or less often enough myself to know.


The Knack I am proposing allows you to choose (at least currently) your Essence in other forms that will count as if they were true froms when you go over 8 motes of peripheral. It does not allow you to count them as natural attributes for the sake of Excellencies, however. It gives you a point of permanent limit however, which is dangerous, as if you get too high, you become a Chimera, which I figure is appropriate, since you're sort of blurring the line of what a true form is and isn't.


Example: Gil the Lunar has a Swordfish as his Totem animal. This isn't exceptionally useful out of water. However, he happens to be powerful enough to take this knack and chooses five other forms with it. Let's say mouse, yeddim, wolf, eagle and tiger. Now, even though he's spent 16 motes of peripheral essence, he can still transform into any of these, as well as his Swordfish form and his War form (if he has one). However, he can't add any more dice to his yeddim form's strength, because his 5 strength is already over-maxxed by the yeddim's 14 strength score.


Don't know if that helps...but that's the idea. As to the other...it's only clothing and weapons, not any toy you happen to pick up...I'm not sure if that evens it out, but Many Pockets Meditation allows anything you can get your gurbby little mitts on to be stored, attuned or not. This...you have to be wearing it at the time for it to work. And I suppose I should add that you need to be attuned to artifacts to be able to store them. Decommitting while they're Elsewhere will lose them permanently...


Does that make it more balanced?


Edit: Oh, and the reason it wasn't likely seen before now is that it had gone back to like page 3 or 4 before I posted in it today. n.n;

 

[Skari-dono]

Thanks, that makes it much more clearer. The Knack would then be a very nice addition

Don't know if that helps...but that's the idea. As to the other...it's only clothing and weapons, not any toy you happen to pick up...I'm not sure if that evens it out, but Many Pockets Meditation allows anything you can get your gurbby little mitts on to be stored, attuned or not. This...you have to be wearing it at the time for it to work. And I suppose I should add that you need to be attuned to artifacts to be able to store them. Decommitting while they're Elsewhere will lose them permanently...
Does that make it more balanced?

I really don't think it does, sorry. I'll try and make my point clearer: We take an Essence 3 Lunar who fulfulls all the requirements of both the Knack and the Charm. He has a Breastplate, two Short Daiklaves, Hearthstone Bracers (which we'll count as 1 item for sake of simplicity), and neccessary clothing (pants and boots). Shapeshifting into another human form, which is his "town clothing", his breastplate, daiklaves and hearthstone bracers are dismissed into Elsewhere. He could also shift into dog-form and dismiss all his items and his clothing. Let's say he is meeting with important people who only recognize his true face, so shifting into another human form is out of the question. He needs to use MPM, and uses it to dismiss his breastplate and daiklaves to Elsewhere. Similar effect, but it takes longer to complete (Speed 5 each applycation of the Charm), more costly (2m per item for a total of 6m which are committed), and he is still wearing his hearthstone bracers because he can only use the Charm on three items at a time.


So a Charm that is supposed to be more powerful than the Knack (if we compare the prerequisites and cost) is far more limiting. The Knack makes the Charm pretty much pointless if you can shift into another human form.

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

You are aware that say, the dog form, ALREADY, without any charm or knack, things are sent elsewhere? Dogs don't wear armor, clothing, or daiklaives, nor bracers, generally. A form which gear is inappropriate for automatically sends such elsewhere.

 

[Dracogryff]

Hmm. Not sure I agree with your interpretations or not, but I shall think on it more myself, as I'm in a rather grouchy and uncompromising mood right now, which really isn't going to have me give it a fair think-through. Though I do have 2 points to make.

He could also shift into dog-form and dismiss all his items and his clothing.

LK's right about this one. This is just kind of trying to expand that application of shapeshifting to accomodate human forms. Considering that...hmm. I should have had it require Prey's Skin Disguise as well, since that's what it's affecting. *edits* Don't know if that changes things so far...but that is a point that hadn't occured to me before.

He needs to use MPM' date=' and uses it to dismiss his breastplate and daiklaves to Elsewhere. Similar effect, but it takes longer to complete (Speed 5 each applycation of the Charm), more costly (2m per item for a total of 6m which are committed), and he is still wearing his hearthstone bracers because he can only use the Charm on three items at a time.[/quote']
Shapeshifting is a Speed 5 action as well, note. It's a Miscellaneous Action unless you have other knacks, and Miscellaneous Actions are speed 5. If you have the one that makes it speed 3, you add 1 mote to the shifting cost (making it 4 for a non-true form, 6 for war form and 2 for human or spirit shape), or you can get the next knack to make it reflexive making it cost 3 more motes (going up to 6 for non-true forms, the same cost you're listing for MPM application here, or 8 for war and 4 for true forms). Then you can also get the final knack, and make it completely reflexive all the time...if you commit 4 motes. These Knacks are on p. 136, and the first even specifies that shifting is normally speed 5.


Now, handy as all those are, it requires at least one more knack to make it faster than MPM, which requires a 4 dex to get. If you want to make it reflexive, you need a 5 dex. If you want reflexives without paying extra...that's also a 5 wits and Essence 5. Not really lower in requirements at this point, is it?


But, I suppose it's not really the time to also add that the knack does allow you to shift into your true form with it and dismiss stuff elsewhere.


And again, MPM is versatility when it comes down to it. You steal Joe's Daiklaive, you'll need to spend the time committing to it before you can use the knack, while you could MPM it right away. *shrugs* To me...that's where the real strength of MPM is...not in hiding your own gear...in hiding the junk your klepto ferret Lunar just snitched and saying 'See? I don't have it!' *shrugs* Will think on it some, though...perhaps adding a limitation on how many artifacts you can hide with it. Not sure it needs it though. Feel free to check the first thread again and see what I've changed so far and see how you feel on it...

 

[Skari-dono]

I think you misunderstood the Speed thing.


The Charm is Speed 5 for each time you use it, which is each time you want to send an item to Elsewhere. You could dismiss at least 3 items (since you need Essence 3 to get the Charm) but that is still 3 actions, each taking 5 ticks. The use of your homemade Knack is only one action that takes 5 ticks. You see the difference?


On the side of stealing items, artifacts are really not that common that multiple uses of the MPM really benefits from it.


Also, unless you have to designate what items disappear in what for when you learn the Knack, you can pretty much steal a priceless jewel, shift into a dog and get out of there without even being suspected (eyewitnesses said a red-haired muscleman, not a dog).


If you do have to designate items when you learn the Knack, what to do about items that get stolen from you? Do you get to designate new items in their place? Either way, I think this Knack needs more work.


Sorry about sounding bitchy. I suggest you just put it away for few hours or days, then look at it again calmly and if you don't think it needs work don't put any more into it. It's a good idea for a Knack, but I wouldn't use it as it is.

 

[Dracogryff]

Mmm. I always thought MPM was a larceny Charm myself more than a hide my artifacts Charm...since all its prereqs are steal stuff things...and it's not always wise to turn into a dog and run off. When you want to nick the crown jewels at a major party, it wouldn't do to run off in the middle, or vanish at all, really...then you automatically make yourself a suspect. If you're there and can say 'Go ahead, search me, I don't have them,' and they can't find them on you and every minute you're accounted for being still in the party...


Donno. *shrugs* As I said, I'm not thinking the straightest, so will consider it more later. I personally still kind of feel like you're making a mountain out of a molehill from my perspective, but I've been wrong before.

 

[Dracogryff]

Velvet Sheathed Talons
Prerequisites: Changing Plumage Mastery, Prey's Skin Disguise, Appearance 4, Essence 3


Sometimes one doesn't want to show off their claws just yet. This Knack allows a Lunar to choose whether or not to keep wearing any appropriate gear when shifting into a new form. If they do not wish it so, the gear is stored Elsewhere for the time being. If they wish to retrieve their gear from Elsewhere, they must shapeshift again, whether it be into a new form or the same one, just with the intend to have the desired article present this time.


When a Lunar chooses to shapeshift into any form, they may look at all gear that would logically fit onto that form and decide whether or not it remains on that form as they take it. So if a Lunar wishes to not have their artifact armor present when trying to look like a helpless child, they can choose when shifting into the child's form to send their armor Elsewhere. It will then remain there until the Lunar shifts into a form where they do wish to be wearing the armor. In the case of artifacts, the Lunar must be committed to the artifact for this Knack to function. Deattuning the motes while it is Elsewhere will cause it to be lost forever. Each item that would normally remain that they send away in this manner costs 1 extra mote on the shapeshifting action.

Mmm...I think that's my final edit.


After an evening of thinking about it during my free time at work, and even sleeping on it, I still cannot seem to agree with the majority of your issues with this Knack. Let's go over things one by one, and I'll see if I can't explain my reasonings.

1) MPM requires Wits 3 and Essence 3 (but its prerequisite Charm requires Wits 4), and VST requires Appearance 4 and Essence 3.
2) MPM has two prerequisite Charms (or, one Charm that has another prereq. Charm), but VST only has one prereq. Knack.


3) MPM costs 2m per item that must be committed. VST does not cost anything to use.


4) MPM has a limit of only applying to as many items as the character's Essence score. VST has no such limit.

1) Same requirements basically...so nothing more to say.


2) Was a good point. VST now needs Prey's Skin Disguise. So two Knacks.


3) Costs whatever is necessary to shapeshift. Shapeshifting is not free. 1 or 3 motes, then. And in the case of artifacts, you must already be attuned, and can't deattune. Granted, one is likely to leave them committed as well if MPMing them away. Shapeshifting is also MUCH less subtle. It also cannot be used unless you're wearing the item. MPM, you only have to be hanging onto it.


4) Possible point. I've been debating limiting it to Essence or Appearance in Artifacts you can affect with the Knack, but really...I'll get into why it doesn't feel right to me later.

I think there needs to be more balance between the two for the Knack to truly work. I would suggest a different approach' date=' like making it only appear as the items weren't there and compare a trait to a target's MDV or something.[/quote']
In all honesty, I think the MDV thing is MORE powerful. 'I'm not wearing armor, really!' *ping as sword bounces off invisible armor* This would also make it a little worthless, as one couldn't be a concubine and not be tactile, and I'm sure someone would wonder why they're running into metal when trying to touch your boobs...so defeats the purpose I intended the Knack for. Disguise.


When it's Elsewhere, you get NO benefits from it. Not from hearthstone, not from armor, nothing. So...making it illusory not there makes it so you get all the benefits, while seemingly not there...which isn't what I wanted. I wanted it literally not there, drawbacks and all.


It's an interesting idea, though...but it's also not really in the nature of shapeshifting. Shapeshifting is about altering things for real, for the most part. The only one that doesn't merely increases your MDV on your tell...which doesn't seem the same as hiding your armor under an illusion...might be a cool Appearance Charm tho...

We take an Essence 3 Lunar who fulfulls all the requirements of both the Knack and the Charm. He has a Breastplate' date=' two Short Daiklaves, Hearthstone Bracers (which we'll count as 1 item for sake of simplicity), and neccessary clothing (pants and boots). Shapeshifting into another human form, which is his "town clothing", his breastplate, daiklaves and hearthstone bracers are dismissed into Elsewhere. He could also shift into dog-form and dismiss all his items and his clothing. Let's say he is meeting with important people who only recognize his true face, so shifting into another human form is out of the question. He needs to use MPM, and uses it to dismiss his breastplate and daiklaves to Elsewhere. Similar effect, but it takes longer to complete (Speed 5 each applycation of the Charm), more costly (2m per item for a total of 6m which are committed), and he is still wearing his hearthstone bracers because he can only use the Charm on three items at a time.[/quote']

The Charm is Speed 5 for each time you use it, which is each time you want to send an item to Elsewhere. You could dismiss at least 3 items (since you need Essence 3 to get the Charm) but that is still 3 actions, each taking 5 ticks. The use of your homemade Knack is only one action that takes 5 ticks. You see the difference?
On the side of stealing items, artifacts are really not that common that multiple uses of the MPM really benefits from it.


Also, unless you have to designate what items disappear in what for when you learn the Knack, you can pretty much steal a priceless jewel, shift into a dog and get out of there without even being suspected (eyewitnesses said a red-haired muscleman, not a dog).


If you do have to designate items when you learn the Knack, what to do about items that get stolen from you? Do you get to designate new items in their place? Either way, I think this Knack needs more work.

May I note you seem to be obsessing over turning into dogs as to why this Knack is broken? I will once more point out that WITHOUT the Knack, this exact same effect you are griping so about happens if you turn into the dog. Just because you turned into a dog, and dogs don't carry daiklaives, or wear jewelery, or clother or anything. So, yeah, you grab the crown jewels, and turn into a dog, the jeweles are sent elsewhere, and you then run like the bitch you are (at least if you're female). WITHOUT my Knack. My Knack is merely refining this automatic aspect of shapeshifting into allowing the Lunar to do so with their Human forms if they so choose.


And this is why I don't really feel it needs a limit or any further limiting or any such. First of all, it is not subtle. Shapeshifting is not a subtle action, really. MPM can be. This is what I generally assumed it was for, after looking over the prerequisite Charms. Subtlety and stealing. Secondly, Shapeshifting already does this AUTOMATICALLY if you turn into an animal. In fact, my Knack is more limiting than that, as you have to be wearing or attuned to the item in question in order to be able to use my Knack with it. You can't turn into another human with stolen jewelery or something and my Knack and hide it Elsewhere that way. That's what MPM is for.


Without my Knack, you can do exactly what you've been commenting on left and right as to why my Knack is unbalanced, which is turn into a dog and send everything Elsewhere.


As I've said repeatedly, but you don't seem to agree with, the power of MPM is its subtlety and uses in nicking stuff, not it's ability to hide your own gear. But, that is a matter of opinion, and if you don't care if you get charms totally inappropriate to a concept to get MPM so you can hide your gear, that's your choice...nothing wrong with you feeling that way. When MPM talks about items reappearing next to you or pulling it out of the pocket with your hands...I'm really not thinking it was actually intended to hide armor anyhow. Not unless you also wanted to take the time to put it on after de-pocketing it. Minor quibble though...and easily enough ignored by player and ST, though.


I, in part, created this Knack because I have characters that occasionally would like to not be wearing their armor constantly but aren't larcenous by any streak of the imagination, and as MPM requires larceny-style Charms to get...it's kind of out of character for them to get it. The other reason was that I thought that if they could send everything Elsewhere just by turning into a dog already, there was no reason they couldn't learn to refine their shapeshifting to allow them to do the same when taking human forms as well, and since they're refining it so, they could be better able to control (IE, choose) what they send Elsewhere. *shrugs* Seems logical to me anyhow.