More Charm Activations

[Kyeudo]

It seems plain to me that one of Exalted's problems is that your ability to use multiple Charms in the same action in combat is severely restricted. You only have one Charm activation and that one Charm activation has to be open to spam your perfect defense or you die, so you can either do nothing magic for the turn or use a Combo. The game developers even seem to agree with my opinion, with the mounting number of Charms with "activating this Charm does not count as a Charm activation" in them, the freebie clauses in Overdrive Charms, and the proliferation of always-active permanent Charm effects as evidence.


Not being able to use your Exalted super-powers is kinda lame. I mean, I want to slice buildings in half and launch bolts of sunfire from a bow! It's why I signed up! Being forced to always stick to the workhorse defensive abilities kind of lowers the cool factor. So, I've got a few ideas on what could be done to open things up a bit.


The first idea is the most extreme. Get rid of Charm activations entirely. You can use any Charm you want whenever you want as long as you obey the timing rules. This has the most severe downsides. First, you depower the Dragon-Blooded, Elementals, Gods, and Demons. Their only claim to fame was free Charm activations. Second, you lose Combos, which I always though were a pretty cool part of the setting.


My second idea was to allow characters to use one Charm per action (so you could use Seven Shadows Evasion or Solar Counterattack in any combination to any of five attacks, but only one Charm per attack). Combos would, of course, let you break the limit of only one. The downside to me seems to be that this would be alot of freed up Charm activations, so you really wouldn't have to do any sort of planning with them at all.


My third idea is to give characters two Charm activations per round, one for offensive abilities and one for defensive abilities. Then you can't go willy-nilly with different Charms in a round, but you can still do something to boost your attack while you prevent yourself from dying. Of the three, I like this idea the most.


What do you guys think would be best? Any problems you see that I don't?

 

[uteck]

You could limit activations past the first to only your favored abilities for Celestials, that way they can be cool in their specific area and still not cut into DB's and spirits too much.

 

[ghoti115]

I've acutally been thinking about this too and came up with an idea for an Artifact that allows access to combos. However, the cost to access the combo, normally 1 mote and 1 willpower, is doubled to 2 motes and 2 willpower. The thought behind this is to allow characters access to more charm combos, but not replace the actual need to eventually buy combos.


The name of the Artifact is subject to change (if you have a suggestion, please make it). Also, the form of the artifact can be rewritten, a chain seemed to be the best representation. As for the long drawn out rules in the spoiler area, well, I’ve been thinking about it for a little while.

Spoiler

These items appear as links to a chain which vary in size, shape, material and other properties. The magical material component must match that which is natural for the type of Exalt the charm comes from (Ornichalcum for Solar Charms, Moonsilver for Lunar Charms, Jade for Dragon Blood Charms, ect.).


While the creator of the artifact has the final say in the design, the person the link is entitled for is able to share in the planning and has input into the end product. Each link is designed to house a three charm combo. The charms for the combo are placed into the artifact at the time of the artifact's creation. The creator does not need to have the charms, but must be able to observer someone using them.


With a number of successes equal to the ability rating of the charm being observed, roll Lore and Perception, the creator of the artifact would be able to capture the essence of the charm and integrate it into the artifact. This must be rolled for each charm that is to be added into the artifact. Then, the normal creation rolls apply.


These links are designed to be connected into a chain and can be built onto. Over time an Exalt could amass a variety of these individual links and combine them into chains. The result of such a chain would allow the Exalt to access any of the charms within the chain for the cost of accessing the combo of the first link. It has even been noted in some cases that multiple separate chains can extend from one base (examples are below).


However, once you start down one chain, you cannot access charms from another chain. This typically causes the first set of links in any combat Combo Chain Link to contain Dodge Charms. There is no roll for constructing or taking apart a chain as they are designed to be combined easily (at least in most cases). Though there are rumors of sets of chain armor that have these integrated into the links.


The normal combo cost is 1m and 1wp in addition to the cost for the charms used. However, this artifact operates at double this cost, 2m and 2wp in addition to the cost for the charms used.


All the normal combo rules apply when creating the chains and even when linking the chains. So, be careful or you might end up with a broken chain. A broken chain occurs if you build an invalid combo within the links or if you do not have a charm on one of the links in a chain. Multiple chains of links can be worn and not connected to each other thus offering the ability to have multiple combos.


The attunement cost is paid for the first link in the chain, which must either pierce the skin or be linked to an attuned artifact. The attunement cost is 2 motes. Note that this is paid for the first link in each combo chain, but none of the connected links.


Iron Tower of the North is a Dawn Caste who has managed to collect several of these links and wants to put them together. He has collected a Dodge Link consisting of the First Dodge Excellency, Shadow Over Water, and Seven Shadow Evasion. He also has a Melee Link which contains the Second Melee Excellency, Hungry Tiger Technique and Fire and Stone Strike. The third link, A Thrown Link, contains the Second Thrown Excellency, Triple Distance Attack, and Cascade of Cutting Terror. The fourth is a Bureaucracy Link with the Second Bureaucracy Excellency, Insightful Buyer Technique, and Frugal Merchant Method.


He wants to build a combat Combo Chain Link. He would need to use the Dodge Link as the primary link. He attunes it for 2 motes and pierces his ear with it. Then, he decides to build two separate chains off of it, one for Melee and one for Thrown. He links each of these to the Dodge Link without interlinking these chains. He can then build onto either the Melee Link or the Thrown Link when he obtains more with different charms.


If he happens to come across a link which contains Thunderbolt Attack Prana, this could easily be connected to the Melee Chain and the Thrown Chain by disconnecting both from the Dodge Link. Then he would connect the new link directly to the Dodge Link and connect the Melee Chain and the Thrown Chain to the newly inserted link providing access to the Thunderbolt Attack Prana link for either Melee or Thrown Charms. He could also add a Martial Arts Chain onto either the Dodge Link or the Thunderbolt Attack Prana link as well.


By piercing his other ear or another location of his body with the Bureaucracy Link he can also have access to this combo, but must attune 2 motes for this second piercing.


Examples of a Broken Chain would be if he were to use the Melee Link and have the Thrown Link connected to it. As this breaks the rules for a normal Combo, it prevents the use of any combo stored on any of the links in the Chain. Though the Exalt can still use their Charms and any Combos purchased with XP normally. If an Exalt attempts to use a combo from a Broken Chain the Essence and Willpower spent are lost and the chain becomes unattuned. If this is in a piercing, it simply falls out. If it is connected to an attuned artifact, the artifact becomes unattuned as well.

 

[Virjigorm]

A simple fix would be to change the "One charm per action, until your DV refreshes", to "One charm per tick."


You would still need combos to build super-attacks and the like, since the entire thing takes place on the same tick. Defenses against flurries would work the same way they do now, allowing for the same reflexive charm to be used against each attack in the flurry. Basically this would just allow defensive charm use on ticks when it is not your action, without sacrificing non-defensive charm use.

 

[DasDom]

That's actually a very interesting option...it would make "waiting until the enemy strikes(e.g. trying to be on the same tick) and then use the opening" viable.

 

[LaFreeze]

Just a suggestion from a relative exalted newbie:


Multiple charms uses are allowed however:


-Secondary action always has to draw from the your personal essence pool


-I like the idea of restricting charms which can be used in some way perhaps making a new keyword for charms which can take advantage of this or require certain charms to be taken twice to cover this effect.

 

[ghoti115]

I also like the third idea of One Offensive Charm and One Defensive Charm can be used per round. It seems balanced enough and does not override the need for combos. But there are some questions when it come to using Combos. Would using one Combo negate this rule (I think it should)? Or is the Exalt able to use one Charm and one Combo (two combos would be too much)?


Building on the idea, I guess Offensive Charms would primarily be defined as ones that operate from the Dawn Cast abilities (and Investigation, Performance, Presence, and Socialize for Social Combat). While Defensive Charms would primarly be based on the abilities of Athletics, Dodge, Integrity, Resistance, and Survival? I realize there are Charms that would break these definitions, but it is a place to start from. Deft Hands Deflection, though a Thrown Charm is a Defensive Charm. Not to mention the Lunars are based on their attributes.


I guess new keywords might be the best solution to define these Offensive and Defensive Charms. Although this brings up the question is healing someone else or lending essence to someone else an Offensive or a Defensive Charm? The simple answer is that some could be defined as both. This would give some flexibility to support characters who might be tending wounded on the battle field.

 

[Kyeudo]

I also like the third idea of One Offensive Charm and One Defensive Charm can be used per round. It seems balanced enough and does not override the need for combos. But there are some questions when it come to using Combos. Would using one Combo negate this rule (I think it should)? Or is the Exalt able to use one Charm and one Combo (two combos would be too much)?
Building on the idea, I guess Offensive Charms would primarily be defined as ones that operate from the Dawn Cast abilities (and Investigation, Performance, Presence, and Socialize for Social Combat). While Defensive Charms would primarly be based on the abilities of Athletics, Dodge, Integrity, Resistance, and Survival? I realize there are Charms that would break these definitions, but it is a place to start from. Deft Hands Deflection, though a Thrown Charm is a Defensive Charm. Not to mention the Lunars are based on their attributes.


I guess new keywords might be the best solution to define these Offensive and Defensive Charms. Although this brings up the question is healing someone else or lending essence to someone else an Offensive or a Defensive Charm? The simple answer is that some could be defined as both. This would give some flexibility to support characters who might be tending wounded on the battle field.

I'm in the process of going over the guts of the system and seeing what needs changed or ripped out, so I was already planning to just use a keyword-approach to defining which Charms are offensive and which are defensive (and yes, I planned for that to extend to social combat). Any Charm that is niether will just take up whichever Charm activation you want it to.


A Combo is just a super-Charm, so you could use two Combos in the same round, but I'm thinking that I should update the Combo rules and specify that you may not Combo a Defensive Charm with an Offensive Charm.

 

[LaFreeze]

I also like the third idea of One Offensive Charm and One Defensive Charm can be used per round. It seems balanced enough and does not override the need for combos. But there are some questions when it come to using Combos. Would using one Combo negate this rule (I think it should)? Or is the Exalt able to use one Charm and one Combo (two combos would be too much)?
Building on the idea, I guess Offensive Charms would primarily be defined as ones that operate from the Dawn Cast abilities (and Investigation, Performance, Presence, and Socialize for Social Combat). While Defensive Charms would primarly be based on the abilities of Athletics, Dodge, Integrity, Resistance, and Survival? I realize there are Charms that would break these definitions, but it is a place to start from. Deft Hands Deflection, though a Thrown Charm is a Defensive Charm. Not to mention the Lunars are based on their attributes.


I guess new keywords might be the best solution to define these Offensive and Defensive Charms. Although this brings up the question is healing someone else or lending essence to someone else an Offensive or a Defensive Charm? The simple answer is that some could be defined as both. This would give some flexibility to support characters who might be tending wounded on the battle field.

I'm in the process of going over the guts of the system and seeing what needs changed or ripped out, so I was already planning to just use a keyword-approach to defining which Charms are offensive and which are defensive (and yes, I planned for that to extend to social combat). Any Charm that is niether will just take up whichever Charm activation you want it to.


A Combo is just a super-Charm, so you could use two Combos in the same round, but I'm thinking that I should update the Combo rules and specify that you may not Combo a Defensive Charm with an Offensive Charm.

I don't know I'm a bit concerned that this change would eliminate a lot of strategy since your only limit on charm use then would be your essence pool. It makes me question if you now can all ways use an attack and a defense maybe perfect defenses/unstoppable offenses shouldn't exist or have a more substantial limit then the often overly situational defense flaws.


I'd suggest in the case of perfect attack vs perfect defense instead of defense winning the two basically cancel out and force an attack roll vs defense roll as normal.

 

[Kyeudo]

I don't know I'm a bit concerned that this change would eliminate a lot of strategy since your only limit on charm use then would be your essence pool. It makes me question if you now can all ways use an attack and a defense maybe perfect defenses/unstoppable offenses shouldn't exist or have a more substantial limit then the often overly situational defense flaws.


I'd suggest in the case of perfect attack vs perfect defense instead of defense winning the two basically cancel out and force an attack roll vs defense roll as normal.

Is there currently any strategy in Exalted Charm use other than "always have a perfect defense availible" and "don't spend motes on attacking unless you can ensure you kill him now"?


Yes, changing such a fundamental design principle would require rippling effects throughout all Charm design. I think that is a better idea than slapping bandaid patches on the system and pretending it isn't broken and mechanically boring.

 

[LaFreeze]

I don't know I'm a bit concerned that this change would eliminate a lot of strategy since your only limit on charm use then would be your essence pool. It makes me question if you now can all ways use an attack and a defense maybe perfect defenses/unstoppable offenses shouldn't exist or have a more substantial limit then the often overly situational defense flaws.


I'd suggest in the case of perfect attack vs perfect defense instead of defense winning the two basically cancel out and force an attack roll vs defense roll as normal.

Is there currently any strategy in Exalted Charm use other than "always have a perfect defense availible" and "don't spend motes on attacking unless you can ensure you kill him now"?


Yes, changing such a fundamental design principle would require rippling effects throughout all Charm design. I think that is a better idea than slapping bandaid patches on the system and pretending it isn't broken and mechanically boring.

That is exalted what I'm saying to fix such a problem you will have to change some of the core combat principles when modding the system.

 

[Virjigorm]

Is there currently any strategy in Exalted Charm use other than "always have a perfect defense availible" and "don't spend motes on attacking unless you can ensure you kill him now"?

YES!, definitely yes, especially when played by folks who see it as a roleplaying game and not a console fighting game with terrible graphics. Many characters can and do flee combat before they get killed, sometimes people even take prisoners and deals may be made. Some characters are creative martial artists and some are sorcerers, shapeshifters, or altruistic paladins of justice. All of these factors should and do change the dynamic of combat.


I think the only way the game dissolves into the "charm spam" everyone seems to think it is, is when the ST forces it to go that way by abusing the system to squeeze out unnecessarily brutal combat tactics for use against the players.

 

[ghoti115]

Is there currently any strategy in Exalted Charm use other than "always have a perfect defense availible" and "don't spend motes on attacking unless you can ensure you kill him now"?


Yes, changing such a fundamental design principle would require rippling effects throughout all Charm design. I think that is a better idea than slapping bandaid patches on the system and pretending it isn't broken and mechanically boring.

Maybe a slight modification to the inital idea would resolve it without the need to rewrite everything. Unless you have your mind set on it.
You can use one Charm that does not have a keyword for combat (Offense or Defense). When using Charms that each have a keyword for combat, up to one Offense and one Defense keyworded Charm can be used. Then you would leave the combat keyword off of the overpowered charms that are unbalanced in the new system.


This could also resolve the issue with Combos as well. If using a Combo that contains only Charms with a combat keyword, up to one Offense Combo and one Defense Combo can be used. If using a Combo that contains a Charm without a combat keyword, only one Combo can be used.


Personally, my group consists of all low power Exalted (no one has more than 3 Essence), so we haven't really run into too much trouble with the Charm limit in combat. Also, since I'm a PC, not the ST, I have no real say in implementing any changes to the rules in my game. But you asked for opinions and I am happy to provide one.

 

[Kyeudo]

YES!, definitely yes, especially when played by folks who see it as a roleplaying game and not a console fighting game with terrible graphics. Many characters can and do flee combat before they get killed, sometimes people even take prisoners and deals may be made. Some characters are creative martial artists and some are sorcerers, shapeshifters, or altruistic paladins of justice. All of these factors should and do change the dynamic of combat.

Those situations change the goals of characters in a combat, but do they actually change how to best go about achieving those goals? If you use an attack Charm without a combo, you can still expect your enemies to attack you in your moment of weakness and, if they decide to break out the attack Charms, kill you, cripple you, or shape you into a duck. If you don't watch your motes, you'll be left with no means of defense and the same thing will happen.


If you are running away, you still need to be able to avoid getting hit by your enemies' arrows. Going faster is a secondary concern to staying alive. If someone has a loved one at sword point, how are you going to get them to safety if you are dead? If we need a gentleman's agreement just to keep situations like you present interesting, then we have a problem that needs solved.

 

[uteck]

Moved thread to this forum because the spiders told me to.

 

[Kyeudo]

Doing some more work on my system fix, I realized that by giving everyone two Charm activations to work with, this opens the door for the Exalted to basically make very small Combos out of any two Charms. In combat, this is completely intentional. Out of combat, it means you could use the First Craft Excellency and Craftsman Needs No Tools at the same time for no additional cost or activate Lightning Speed and Increasing Strength Excercise in a single action prior to the start of a fight.


So, the question is: would this be a bad thing?

 

[Revoke]

I'm generally in favor of this idea. Both 'one charm per tick' and 'two charms per action' seem like workable concepts. I rather like the 'moment of weakness' effect the former implies (that is, delaying so you act on the same tick as an opponent) but that would seem like a bit of a step backwards in that it takes us back to one charm use (albeit situationally).


I'm inclined to suggest 'two charms per action' rather than 'one attack and one defense' charm per action, both because it's more flexible and avoids the problem of having to label every combat charm. For example, is a counter attack charm attack or defense? Labeling it means either you can't combine it with a defense charm, or that you can't combine it with an attack charm to boost the counter attack itself.

Doing some more work on my system fix, I realized that by giving everyone two Charm activations to work with, this opens the door for the Exalted to basically make very small Combos out of any two Charms. In combat, this is completely intentional. Out of combat, it means you could use the First Craft Excellency and Craftsman Needs No Tools at the same time for no additional cost or activate Lightning Speed and Increasing Strength Excercise in a single action prior to the start of a fight.
So, the question is: would this be a bad thing?

This seems like quite an issue. The examples you give, I don't have a problem with, but I can think of some examples that are more problematic. In particular, charms which require activation rolls (I've been doing alot with Sidereals lately, and they have alot of these). In those cases you can suddenly use an excellency to boost the activation roll without a combo, which is a considerable boost (especially because alot of subtle, social type charms come to mind, and this would allow the boost without an obvious display).


Possibly the 'one attack AND one defense OR a single other charm' idea was a good one. Or more simply, '2 combat charms OR a single other charm' would suffice. Although social combat is also an issue.


This whole thing is a much more prickly issue than I thought when I started writing this post.

 

[Kyeudo]

I'm inclined to suggest 'two charms per action' rather than 'one attack and one defense' charm per action, both because it's more flexible and avoids the problem of having to label every combat charm. For example, is a counter attack charm attack or defense? Labeling it means either you can't combine it with a defense charm, or that you can't combine it with an attack charm to boost the counter attack itself.

A true counterattack is clearly offensive in nature unless that counterattack somehow is negating the original attack that hit you. A better example would be a Melee Excellency. You can clearly use it to attack better, but you also can clearly use it to boost your Parry DV and defend against an attack.


My current solution to the problem is that any Charm not clearly offensive or defensive does not get either keyword and takes up one or the other of your Charm activations, your choice each time you activate it. One round you might activate an Excellency as your Offensive Charm along with Suprise Anticipation Method as your Defensive Charm, another turn you might use Solar Counterattack as your Offensive Charm and an Excellency as your Defensive Charm.

This seems like quite an issue. The examples you give, I don't have a problem with, but I can think of some examples that are more problematic. In particular, charms which require activation rolls (I've been doing alot with Sidereals lately, and they have alot of these). In those cases you can suddenly use an excellency to boost the activation roll without a combo, which is a considerable boost (especially because alot of subtle, social type charms come to mind, and this would allow the boost without an obvious display).


Possibly the 'one attack AND one defense OR a single other charm' idea was a good one. Or more simply, '2 combat charms OR a single other charm' would suffice. Although social combat is also an issue.


This whole thing is a much more prickly issue than I thought when I started writing this post.

Well, Exalt flexibility in-combat goes up greatly, as demonstrated by the examples I used above, which is why I'm wondering if allowing out-of-combat flexibility to go up would really be a bad thing. What combinations of effects are so potent that they should always require a Combo to use?

 

[wordman]

Other ideas in this area:

• Extend the notion of "use Reflexives any time you like" to everyone, not just dragon-blooded.
  
• Divide the timing of "charm refresh", "DV refresh" and "Rate refresh" so that they don't all just happen automatically every time you act. I'm pretty sure I wrote a post on this once, but can't find it.
  
• Replace flurries with something that allows an attack to continue over multiple ticks, one attack per tick.

 

[Kyeudo]

I'd like to leave the Dragon-Blooded their signature ability (well, outside their elemental Charms). It's their only edge that no Celestial Exalt can take away from them.

 

[Revoke]

A true counterattack is clearly offensive in nature unless that counterattack somehow is negating the original attack that hit you.

So it's clearly offensive...unless it's not.

My current solution to the problem is that any Charm not clearly offensive or defensive does not get either keyword and takes up one or the other of your Charm activations, your choice each time you activate it.

That seems sound. It means you can activate a damaging charm in addition to excellency on the one attack, but I don't object to that.

Well, Exalt flexibility in-combat goes up greatly, as demonstrated by the examples I used above, which is why I'm wondering if allowing out-of-combat flexibility to go up would really be a bad thing. What combinations of effects are so potent that they should always require a Combo to use?

The example that occurs to me is the 'some charm + excellency' combination. This isn't a problem, for, say, crafting charms, because the combo it's replacing was cheap anyway. It is an issue for social (and other low-key) charms, because removing the combo removes the obvious display. So, that includes most of Solar Presence and Performance, for starters. Pretty much anything you might want to keep low key that requires an activation roll.

 

[Kyeudo]

The example that occurs to me is the 'some charm + excellency' combination. This isn't a problem, for, say, crafting charms, because the combo it's replacing was cheap anyway. It is an issue for social (and other low-key) charms, because removing the combo removes the obvious display. So, that includes most of Solar Presence and Performance, for starters. Pretty much anything you might want to keep low key that requires an activation roll.

Social Combos and Combos used to boost dramatic actions don't have obvious displays. It's a small, easily-overlooked paragraph just after the mention of the dramatic display that accompanies combat Combos.


Now that you mention Social Combos, though, that does bring up the Willpower cost of a Combo that wouldn't be spent. If I were using the RAW social combat rules, that would be a fairly big edge. However, seeing as I'm going to be using a reworked version, Willpower isn't social health levels anymore, so that also shouldn't be a problem.


Finally, Social Combat Charms will also be getting the Offensive and Defensive Keywords, so that should further shut down unusual Charm use.


Writing this out, it seems like I've narrowed the field of possible Charm overuse down to stuff that takes place outside of any sort of combat time, like stealth or investigation. Night and Twilight Caste stuff, with maybe a smattering of other Castes. Looking over some of those, I see Medicine getting a slight boost, but there's alot of Simple Charms in non-combat Abilities. Nothing really jumps out at me as being a really cheap, potent synergistic effect. Perhaps I worry for nothing.

 

[Revoke]

Social Combos and Combos used to boost dramatic actions don't have obvious displays. It's a small, easily-overlooked paragraph just after the mention of the dramatic display that accompanies combat Combos.

I stand corrected! That's both interesting to know, and makes sense, in retrospect.


The only big deal I can think of then is the removal of the willpower point cost. But I imagine that's partly the point, and you seem to have considered it already.

 

[cyl]

If I may the simple and best solution is to effectively open up the charm activation completely and kiss combos bye bye.


Yes DB loose their edge, but they're terrestrials can cast sorcery and have access to CMA so... without restrictions on charm use, they also get a good cut of the deal.


This way you can actually enjoy and use the diversity of charms you have bought, stuff like Bulwark Stance that you never use with the canon unless you have a combo.


The only restriction that would still be applicable would come from the type of charms (you can't use two simples unless you have an extra action going on).


This way you can be free of damage paranoia, and enjoy a good fight and starts thinking about combat strategy when combat happens, because you'll still have the mote pool to limit you.

 

[Persell]

I've been running a house rule that lets celestial exalted activate permanent essence charms per action, if you have a combo it counts as one charm and give you a limited reduction in experience cost for essence increase as long as it has more charms then your permanent essence.


I found this drastically changed combat from paranoid to how can I stunt to get back some of the essence I'm blowing, and it give's those dragon blooded something to fear when facing anathema.