Other Minimum post lengths

[Whisker]

I was texting when he was writing. /RIP

 

[rae2nerdy]

My experience with detailed posting, just to let you guys know. This was the first post of the RP where I was planning on going all out, no holds barred, just write the best story I could and have some friends alongside.

Spoiler: that first post tho[/spoiler

Long after the pilgrims had gone out from Gallace Academy’s great city, the fire-dust still clung to them. It would not let them forget and stirred up memories of the massacre; for among the pilgrims were witnesses and survivors alike. These men were at the Academy during the attack, on a hill above the now-charred village. From the castle wall, they would have spied the dragon that parted clouds and fell like lightning down to earth, the flame spitting from its mouth, coating the land in angry, hungry red.

The flame was gluttonous. After it had consumed the homes of farmers, laborers and poor men, it burned in the hearts of those that survived, nestling down like a thorn that digs in deep and set the teeth on edge. The cry was for Vengeance -- blood for blood. Those serpents took the lives of good men. To the sword with them! Kill them! Kill them all! The priests preached vengeance in their temples, and the commoners howled for it in their streets.

And as for those that remained by the dragons’ side in this time, they were counted among the beasts -- for they were the sympathizers, the enablers, the deceived. By association, these fools were held accountable; the guilt of the serpents became a yolk their shoulders also bore.

The solution offered was considered ludicrous by most -- a stalling tactic. That the dragons would be sent on pilgrimage with the sympathizers, with Narathzul, their guardian, and Lureana, the student, was a most heinous affront. Good pilgrims seek holiness in these journeys. They traverse the land with the clothes on their back, putting their lives in the grace of the gods and the generosity of townsfolk. And these demons would take on such a high calling? What heresy is this?

With so criminal a company, who could blame the good nobles, priests, and peasants that withdrew for the year? At the announcement, the company cut from a hefty hundred to a mere handful. To be seen beside a dragon is to be seen the advocate of a murderer. Indeed, those that remain are either very foolish or very brave.

Therefore, it can be said that this group of travelers is more a party of exiles than pilgrims. Their visit to these holy sites displays a shabby pretense of repentance and piety. The untold truth is obvious; these are no pilgrims. They are criminals that the worldly powers in cowardice seen fit to prolong the judgement of. What is feared is what influence this malignant group will obtain in their journey. Should they find proof of their worth or gain the mercy of rulers, perhaps by the end of it, the necessary judgement will be overturned. As is uncommonly known, to endeavor to change the mind of a people requires that one starts at the very bottom; one must first convince the commoners, the hungry, and the weary. Gods help us if they succeed.

As you can see, it's very detail-heavy. I took a lot of stylistic choices, let the flowers bloom, and tried my best to instill a tone and mission in the RPers. It was a lot of effort, a lot of investment, and I was expecting the same investment in kind.
My initial idea was to start out with the conflict of "hey, this guy won't let you in to the city for a night's rest! What'll you do?" Rather than face him head-on, the RPers decided to stay outside, camp, and start a fire. Most of the time, the RPers were avoiding conflict rather than facing it, accepting problems rather than addressing them. I was distraught because the whole reason the guard didn't let them in was because the town had been overtaken by bandits.

Spoiler: link

Post

After a month or two, this is near to the final post. The text in different colors was added in by the players, and you can definitely see how little action it contributes.
Now I see two main issues on my end, and it doesn't all come down to detailed roleplay or post length, but it certainly is related.
1. I didn't let the players reap the consequences of their actions and tried to woo them back to the plot
2. In the end, it felt like I was writing my own story by myself and they were just all along for the ride. This was because I was trying so hard to write a story I'd enjoy, rather than trying to enjoy the interaction and collaborative plots with the other RPers.
My priorities were out-of-whack; I wanted collaborative storytelling but I wasn't putting my efforts there; my efforts were in storytelling, which I'm perfectly able to do by my lonesome. It took a few months of thought for me to realize that I was trying to accomplish something that I didn't realize I was trying to accomplish, and that this was the root of my dissatisfaction.
The issues with the RPers? There were some.
1. They ran from conflict rather than faced it.
2. They didn't talk much about the RP OOC, didn't ask me many questions, just posted their best work and carried on.
As a result, everything felt disconnected. The characters didn't have a full understanding of the world and the RPers didn't seem to care to; I had put so much work into the lore that they needed only reference that; there were no more conversations about it. Although they were wowed by the writing and the lore's presentation, it did me little good in the end, since it cut off conversation, and communication in an RP is so important.
So I'll finish with this; minimum post length policies are a symptom of a larger issue. It puts the priorties of RPers in the wrong place. What do you really want from an RP? Do you really want flowery sentences and beautiful detail? You can get that from a romantic poem, what's the big deal about RPing, why are you coming back to this instead of finding something more worth reading?
It's really simple, isn't it? Aren't we here to RP because we want to write with someone else? We don't want to write the story alone, and we find it's a lot more fun to let it develop naturally, with other RPers goofing around with us. We're here for a good time, and a fun experience. Writing is a great way to learn new things, and other people are the best way to learn new things from.
So not having a minimum post length will surely assist you in reaching that goal. Make sure you're saying things you mean, not just trying to root out a crowd. Reach out to writers, describe what you really want, and sure, be particular once they come, but the best way to stick to your guns is to have a good idea of what you really want from RPing. That way you can politely and kindly express this to those persons that, perhaps, don't want the same thing you do.
TLR I used to think writing my best is the best way to have fun RPing, but then I realized all I really wanted was to have fun and let loose with a collaborative story. Post length definitely adds pressure where there needs be none.

Um I don't see where you got the idea that lack of OOC interaction and your roleplayers not engaging in the plot was somehow related to a post minimum? If you could maybe elaborate on how your making the link between those two things because I honestly don't get it.

From what I understood of your analysis you believe the reason this example roleplay failed was
- The roleplayers did not face conflict
- They only read the lore and made their posts and did not interact in the ooc

And somehow this is the fault of post minimums?

Why?

The post minimum is ONLY a guide to make sure that players hit a certain paragraph/word count. It has nothing to do with what is in the post or the interaction level of the players. So like changing the post minimum wouldn't actually make those two things go away.

To me what you needed to have done is emphasize that interaction was important in your roleplay. If you needed a specific plot point to be hit than you needed to have given your players less freedom in just letting the plot meander around.

If anything that says to me you needed to put more effort into actually talking to your players AND maybe tightened up the story structure of the roleplay a bit more.

Now if you didn't like doing that than yes you could just let your preconceived plots go and had fun with your players. But again that doesn't mean you need to remove a post minimum.

That has nothing to do with whether or not a roleplay is "fun".

If you want to goof off and hang out with your players and let the roleplay take you wherever it will than you can absolutely do so while still asking that each post be a minimum length.

You might get a few people who struggle with reaching that but unless your post length requirement is super excessive ( like 1000 words or something ) than most people can manage a reasonable minimum no problem.

And those who can't you can always help them ( which incidentally will increase their interaction with you and ability to enjoy the roleplay as well )

 

[Tabby]

I would think it would be almost better to just stalk post history OR request a link to a previous roleplay to see how they interacted in that.

You know - that's really interesting. I HATE writing samples with a passion. Either I write something new for a character I've never touched (and is thus not likely to be my best work lol, much less an example of my normal work) or I jack a post I like from an old character (most likely from an entirely different setting since I shift it up often). I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone use your suggestion, linking a past RP, and it seems like it would be more or less perfect for giving a genuine idea of RP quality and tendencies spread over a topic. The applicant can just link a RP they liked and the reviewer gets to see them in their natural habitat.

Not super relevant to the overall back and forth WWI trench warfare of minimum post counts - just something I found very interesting in your post given my history of RP stretching across many different sites rather than concentrated in a single site (ex. rpnation).

 

[rae2nerdy]

You know - that's really interesting. I HATE writing samples with a passion. Either I write something new for a character I've never touched (and is thus not likely to be my best work lol, much less an example of my normal work) or I jack a post I like from an old character (most likely from an entirely different setting since I shift it up often). I don't think I've ever actually seen anyone use your suggestion, linking a past RP, and it seems like it would be more or less perfect for giving a genuine idea of RP quality and tendencies spread over a topic. The applicant can just link a RP they liked and the reviewer gets to see them in their natural habitat.

Not super relevant to the overall back and forth WWI trench warfare of minimum post counts - just something I found very interesting in your post given my history of RP stretching across many different sites rather than concentrated in a single site (ex. rpnation).

I mean I had people do that back on my other site they'd just straight up tell you - yeah I'm going to stalk your post history and see how you handle other roleplays.

I mean on the site I was in back when this was all the rage people just made their own "portfolio" if you will with sample posts listed from various roleplays. It would be an entire thread dedicated just to that. Some would be like super elaborate with like - word counts, roleplay links, etc.

I personally would usually put the following in mine ( linking to the roleplays it was in/or the reply I was responding to as relevant )
- latest roleplay response ( updated as frequently as possible )
- Short reply
- Long reply
- Roughly average reply
- Intro ( long )
- Intro ( short )

Did the folks I was applying too necessarily read them all - very probably not. I think most of them just took a visual look at the relative size of my posts and made an educated guess on whether I would fit. ( I mean it's possible some of them read all those posts but I highly doubt it )

Still I think even that whole - post sample thread - thing was a lot more useful than just having someone post one sample out of context.

 

[Killigrew]

And somehow this is the fault of post minimums?

Why?

I hate to be snide, but I thought I explained that in the very paragraphs to follow the statement. The idea is that it puts the writer's priority in the wrong place. The cause for
1. They ran from conflict rather than faced it.
2. They didn't talk much about the RP OOC, didn't ask me many questions, just posted their best work and carried on.
is that they thought detail and pretty writing, showing character, was all that I wanted from them. That wasn't so; I wanted to write a story with them. I didn't just want character showcase. Maybe it's not getting through, but there is a connection there. Because of the emphasis on detail and post length, what actually matters in RPing was forgotten. You can call that a misunderstanding, but I'm saying it's due to a miscommunication; it's more my fault than theirs.
Everything we require of RPers should be built on the main idea that we're all here to write a collaborative story. Does that make sense? Minimal post length isn't built on that, and helps support the idea that detail and characterization is of greater value than storytelling. Does that make sense? That's the basic step-by-step idea.
I really must add that I can't stand the statement "be ok with it or don't get involved." I thought we were stating our opinions here. What's so terrible about that?

 

[AtlannianSpy]

There seems to be this recurring idea on RPN that the rules you post as a GM are capable of mind controlling your players.

"Oh don't have a minimum length rule, your players, they'll post fluff,"

"you shouldn't have a history section in your CSes, your players will feel restricted and won't develop their characters,"

etc, etc.

But rather than using rules to try and manipulate players into the kind of writing you want to see you should just. TALK TO THEM. Tell them what kind of posts you want to see, ask about their writing process and if they seem to be struggling to introduce anything noteworthy offer brainstorm with them or ask them about their writing process.

There's no magic set of rules you can put in the OOC that will eliminate the social aspect of the GMing job but on the bright side that means you can always fall back on that social side to keep things running smoothly.

If you don't want your players to post fluff it actually has nothing to do with a minimum length requirement, you need to reach out and make sure they're confident enough to actually make a decision about what they're character should or could be doing.



That being said I'm broadly in favor of minimum post requirements. So often people seem to be concerned with "moving the plot forward" but I find myself far more commonly thinking "We didn't really fully develop that scene," Or "There were some really cool implications we could have explored further there," I think it's a way bigger crime to skip over something significant with a couple of sentences then to spend a little too long on a scene and run out of things to say, at least that way you also said all the things worth saying.

I think a minimum post length combined with the right GMing style is a great way of encouraging players to stop and actually think about the scene they are in and maybe go a bit deeper than just the obvious reaction their character would have.

 

[Platypus]

I'm not the biggest fan of minimum post lengths. The only thing they add to a roleplay is a bunch of fluff that wasn't really needed in the first place, at least in my experience.

 

[Idea]

Alright, so I have a few things I would like to respond to, but before I proceed to do so again, I feel like it would be healthy for the discussion to have a situation point (is that how you say that in english? Sorry, I'm using a direct translation, someone let me know if that expression doesn't actually exist), about the topics currently being discussed:
1. The innitial topic of the thread centered on the "right" GMs have or not to request a post minimum. This is, of course, a discussion of the morality of the request, as RPN rules state that GMs can do it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

2. The secondary topic that was brought up is the merit of posting minimums. The main way this topic differs from the first one is that in this one, people discuss their personal opinions and experiences with posting minimums, rather than advocating a change or advocating a non-change in the behavior of others. Despite not being the innitial topic, I'd say most of us are focusing majorly on this topic.

3. The third less focused on but still somewhat recurring topic is the merits and faults of lengthy/detailed roleplay in general as opposed to those of shorter, more minimalistic approaches.

Of course, all of these are related, though they are, as well, distinct topics. And the important aspect to consider regarding that is that the conclusions to one of those topics don't necessarily translate to the conclusions in the other two.

Anyway, this was a short recap to remove some of the mud in the water, if possible.

 

[Idea]

But you haven't actually refuted anything.

Sure I didn't, suuure....

So you're telling me that two characters saying 10 lines of dialogue back and forth to each other in monologue form, replying to things in a bullet format, doesn't subtract from realism or immersion?

1. That's a strawman
2. Conversations between two people who actually have the slightest interest in what's being talked about do tend to be quite lengthy in what each person says before the other interrupts, by my experience, while small talk leads only to awkward silence almost immediately. Is it ten lines worth of material? Probably not, but again, you can't just ignore what I said about content not being limited to just dialogue and action

You're telling me that going through intense mental processing to answer "Hey whatsup man" is realistic?

In some cases, yes. But unless you're somehow convinced that your brain is taking in less at any conscious point in your life, then you don't quite understand how that organ works. You NEVER stop thinking. If you so much as stare at a wall, your brain takes in more details about the wall, if you conversation then there is a billion factors to describe. Your impression of someone, for instance, or how you mentally process the implications of what someone is saying, or just describing the WAY things are said... All of these are relevant details for someone who cares about detail, because this is where there is an actual connection with the character, in having insight into who they are which creates immersion.

ou're telling me that having super lengthy action posts is more believable than quick posts when fights happen very quickly? You're telling me that it's believable to go through an entire mental gym between a dodge and an attack when the time separating dodge and attack is maybe 3 seconds? Thinking takes time you know.

Your argument falls on the simple fact that is writing, not cinema.

Yes, I'm telling you that. Let me explain for a moment, the difference between a medium like TV, anime or any visual non-literary medium: In those mediums you take the information in as it is given to you. Their actions scenes are better occurring faster because you can experience the whole of the detail faster, because you can take in a lot of information at once. You can see the background, the expression in the character's face, their body movements, the goal (say, people to be protected) in the background, you can hear the sounds being emitted, and all of that in one instant. There isn't less information, but precisely because you already have the information, stretching out it's delivery is meaningless and just hurts the pacing.

In literature, however, it's reversed. Nomatter how long the page, it can all take place in a milisecond, but unless you give the full detail of the action the information just vanishes which in turn can extract from the weight of the scene. It dosn't matter how cool a fight being described is if I don't understand what's a stake and how it's affecting the characters, and if I can't accompany them in the thought that leads to each action. Because I can't care, I can't connect to what's happening. And you, writing, can't control the pace at which I read. So you're sacrificng somehting primary- the weight and connection of the scene- for somehting uncertain and secondary, it's pacing. Which, don't get me wrong, is not saying pacing is meaningless, it certainly is an important aspect, but a scene with good pacing and without the other elements is shallow. And maybe you like it shallow, maybe you just want to see what happens next, and that's fine, but to me and many others it's not good enough.

And yes, thinking takes time, but conscious thought is not the only kind of thought. So it takes time, but we're talking fractions of a second if that much.

Most detailed posts in action go like this.

1. Take in what just happened, what did everyone else do? - Useless, people just read this in other posts.

2. React to what happened in some lengthy diatribe - so in the middle of a life or death fight you're gonna focus on how Jimmy just uppercutted a random enemy goon? If it doesn't have serious emotional weight (like a love interest getting killed on the battlefield) it is out of place to lose focus on your fight.

3. Go through planned motion - Ok, this is fine, but do I really need to know why you want to shoot someone? Is it not obvious that you want to harm or maim them? Do I need to hear about how "hopefully this strike will land and end this fight once and for all!" no I don't, that's self explanatory UNLESS there is some kind of differing circumstance (like you fighting a good friend and deep down you don't want to harm them or something, but this should be established pre fight).

4. Go through excruciating detail about how your body is working on a muscular level, lol, like I can't just imagine what a punch looks like, I need someone to tell me how their pectoral muscle pulled on the tendons in their shoulder to throw a haymaker.

5. The actual attack

6. The intended effects if the attack lands or the aftermath of the attack if against NPC

2. The consequences and implications of something happening, as your character perceives them, are always relevant

3. Yes, you do, because the intentions for said shot can be to cause a distraction to prepare another move, and maybe there are particulars about how you intend to take the action which are relevant

4. I'm gonna be honest and say I never saw anyone do something like that (though depending on the character, I can see it being used to great effect), and it really sounds like a strawman. Now, what could go there is the actual process of the action, which is important, because say, what direction you moved in , where you aim, all of those are relevant for what the response of the other character would be and creating a fight which is more vivid and realistic

5. Five is usually included in the above

6. Nothing to say here, I think we already agree this one is important


Now, I never took the time to break down the exact composition step by step of detailed posts- mostly because that is futile, seeing how detailed posts don't HAVE a fixed structure, because the people writing them write them differently, as one would expect out of any kind of post. However, above is my answer giving a sample, generically speaking, of how each of those steps YOU pointed is still relevant.

you will see from a large portion of people on this website who are literally space filling in action posts

Now, I realize I am this quote from out of context, but I do think you have, right here, what I said. Yes, there is a large portion of people who don't do this well. What I've been saying, however, is that it isn't a problem with detail or length, it's that these people are thinking of how to produce posts for casual while attempting to produce posts for detailed. Their methods are not suited for the task, maybe they aren't suited for the task, not because they are worse or better, but because there are revelevant details in what each style finds important.

 

[Idea]

Like I said before, I am at work and can't respond how I want to, so I apologize if this sounds short and snippy.

It's ok, IRL comes first. So let me know if there is anything I am misunderstanding about your posts that results from your lack of availability when you produced them

Our argument has been consistent as far as I can tell. We are in no way, shape, or form criticizing detailed rps. We are addressing a discrepancy we have noticed where length is being associated as the highest standard of quality even to the point where it is negatively impacting rps

I believe Bone2pick expressed my thoughts on this already

. We are addressing a discrepancy we have noticed where length is being associated as the highest standard of quality even to the point where it is negatively impacting rps. Yes, people say quality > quantity but it isn't often practiced. I get apologies daily "Oh, I am sorry my post isn't long enough" and next to nothing on any other aspect of RP. If you're happy with what you wrote and it makes sense, why apologize? On the other side of the coin, I frequently see long detailed posts accompanied by Tlrs. If you need a tlr why post at all? Isn't it a sure sign you could trim fluff out before you post? I know this is kind of nonsensical because I am texting this between breaks, but I hope it helps.

I've never seen these tl;drs in RPs I've been on, but I think I get the point you're trying to get across. That said, I would argue that still supports, or to say the least, doesn't contradict what I've been saying: That the problem isn't the posting requirements, it's people who don't grasp their implications. As in, a casual roleplayer overestimating themselves and attempting to do something in a style which doesn't fit them. Again, I am not saying either style, lenghty and detail or shorter and more to the point is better, but that they are fundamentally different styles with different demands and different goals and the point of posting requirements is the same idea as anything in the interest check, to see who wants to roleplay in that style. But many people who don't want to roleplay detailed, still end up going to roleplay detailed, usually (by my experience) driven by an interest in the topic of the roleplay while ignoring whether they can sustain following the roleplay's rules.

However, while you are right that quantity is different from quality and posting requirements are not the most efficient way towards the goal we want, fact remains that as far as many of us can see, it is the best option. If you want to adress the issue, and by all means that is quite a noble cause, then the first thing that should be accounted for is not why the issue is bad, but what merits the other position may have. Why, whether you agree or disagree with them, people would think short posts are bad or that adding details you consider "fluff" would be something other people want to do to the point of making a rule of it when one can see that such a rule can cause problems for the RP's lifespan?

 

[rae2nerdy]

I hate to be snide, but I thought I explained that in the very paragraphs to follow the statement. The idea is that it puts the writer's priority in the wrong place. The cause for
1. They ran from conflict rather than faced it.
2. They didn't talk much about the RP OOC, didn't ask me many questions, just posted their best work and carried on.
is that they thought detail and pretty writing, showing character, was all that I wanted from them. ( this does not have anything to do with post minimums. this is a lack of communication on your part )

That wasn't so; I wanted to write a story with them. I didn't just want character showcase. Maybe it's not getting through, but there is a connection there. Because of the emphasis on detail and post length, what actually matters in RPing was forgotten. You can call that a misunderstanding, but I'm saying it's due to a miscommunication; it's more my fault than theirs.
Everything we require of RPers should be built on the main idea that we're all here to write a collaborative story. Does that make sense? Minimal post length isn't built on that, and helps support the idea that detail and characterization is of greater value than storytelling. Does that make sense? That's the basic step-by-step idea.
I really must add that I can't stand the statement "be ok with it or don't get involved." I thought we were stating our opinions here. What's so terrible about that?

I still don't understand how your are making this connection though. Like literally all a post minimum is saying is - Please make your response X paragraphs long.

For example please write at least one paragraph or ( in the case of the definition of detailed on this site ) please make your response three paragraphs long.

That has NOTHING to do with placing this unrealistic expectation that pretty writing, showing character etc. is all you want from the roleplay.

And I did indicate that lack of communication was your actual problem in my post. I mean maybe I was a little too subtle or I didn't make myself perfectly clear so I'll repeat it below.

Your problem was not a post minimum. Whether or not you make a roleplay with a post minimum is not going to fix the problem you are describing in your replies.

That problem is - people don't understand what the GM wants them to write and think that they should focus on writing/pretty posts/characters/ and not the story.

That is because you as the GM were not clear in what you wanted from them. The solution to this is to specifically state in your rules what you want and also to communicate directly with your roleplayers.

This solution does not involve in any way removing or adding a post minimum because that does not have anything to do with a lack of communication.

Like that is the problem I'm having here, how you are thinking that post minimum is the cause for people not understanding what you wanted from them in their posts. Especially when you specifically stated that it was due to a miscommunication on your part.

Is it because you are confusing post minimums with elitist gatekeeping?

Post Minimum = Only focus on this post to the exclusion of all else because that is literally all I care about in this roleplay and I will hunt you down and shame you before the entire site if you don't.

Like is that what you think a post minimum is ? because that's literally the only way I can understand this connection your making between lack of communication and people focusing on the story to the exclusion of all else.

And ironically that in itself is a miscommunication. As AtlannianSpy rather beautifully pointed out. You can't mind read your players. And if you'll forgive me for being blunt you can't seem to grasp that other people are not talking about the above definition at all when they are talking about post minimums.

I'll say it again and bold it just so it stands out.

Post Minimum = A minimum length requirement for all posts.

Ex. I want you to write three paragraphs per post = I want you to write three paragraphs per post.

Now some people might have developed bad habits over the years but again that's a SEPARATE issue.

If you want to prevent extraneous detail than as you yourself said - just communicate what you actually want.

Ex. I want you to write three paragraphs per post, please make sure your post is relevant to the current action and is something your partners can respond to.

And if the people have a question about the rule make sure to indicate they can ASK you.

Like if you just flat out don't want to use post minimums that's your choice. But a lack of communication leading to a failed roleplay does not mean that post minimums are bad. It makes them less helpful sure but that is not the fault of the post minimum themselves.

 

[Uncultured]

Pacing is as important in writing as it is in cinema, you fool.

Stop saying strawman, You're not using the term correctly. When I was listing action post talking points I was using my experiance to give an example of a bloated action post. That is not a strawman.

A strawman would be me putting words in your mouth that you didn't say. Neither my list nor my statement about long ass dialogue were strawman.

The list was an anecdotal example and with the dialogue statement, you stated many times that long ass dialogue is perfectly realistic (even though most conversations between individuals is back and forth, good writers know this, go watch a Tarantino movie). So that wasn't a strawman either, stop tossing around random debate terms.

When I say thinking I mean internal dialogue. It is not normal or natural to have a lengthy internal dialogue over something mundane. If you do have lengthy internal dialogues over the act of pouring milk into a bowl of cereal, then You should seek help (that was an exaggeration, as you'll surely quote that and call it a strawman). You seem to intentionally misunderstand what I say, you'e one of those people that really plays semantics hard. Thought = internal dialogue in my context, and my context was pretty clear.

Time and time again you minimize the idea of pacing. The length of sentences, and the length of words even, can effect this as well as overall pace of storytelling (Good luck telling a frantic war scene in second by second form without destroying immersion, you want your reader in the story, in the moment, overwriting can kill that).

You build like this.

With a short statement.

Something small to attract attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, it is found in all writing.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last, creating rhythm.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. It's nuanced, appealing to our subconscious. Within the best prose, it is always found.

You really miss the mark with pacing. Pacing in writing can separate average from good, good and great and great from world class.

Also, I can't influence a readers' pace? Really? That's interesting, go back a few lines and re read the part about creating rhythm.

"A short statement.

Something small to attract attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, it is found in all writing.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last, creating rhythm.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. It's nuanced, appealing to our subconscious. Within the best prose, it is always found."

Before I intentionally created an inverse pyramid. It creates momentum in writing. Starting small and ending larger, like a snowball rolling down a hill. Continuing into a diamond is a good way to build momentum and end with decisively (after hitting max length, work back down to shorter sentences).

Now I'll intentionally tweak the sentence structure and make a cube formation.

"With a brief statement, something small to attract your attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page by our sample writer.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, in all writing it can be found.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. Appealing to our subconscious mind.

The best writers all do it, the next time you read, pay attention to this."

In this example, the sentences are quite even in size. Because of this it gives the writing a more stable feeling, like a drum beat.

With some line breaks, semi colons, some of this --- or ... and planned sentence length, the pace that a reader digests the material can be manipulated to enhance the material. Even if the exact speed of the reader doesn't change drastically, the perception of what transpires can be altered.

Something like the stakes of a fight should be shown and not told. Telling the reader everything that can possibly be gleaned from a situation is somewhat disrespectful to their intelligence. Some things should be seen through common sense and not heard through internal monologue. If a villain has been romping around killing people is a statement like...

"In the face of such terror, Hunter could no longer hold back"

...worse than a paragraph about how much the hero wants to end the villain? This is ofc assuming that this villain has some buildup, not just appearing from nowhere.

Shouldn't the evil of the villain be self explanatory after it killed half the town. Do we need a "last time on ______" style recap of everything that the reader just read? Especially in a RP where half of the observations are retelling of other RPers posts.

Again I must insist, I am not against detail, nor do I write shallow. I just attempt to write contextually.

 

[AtlannianSpy]

You know it surprises me that someone who understands pacing in writing like that doesn't see the value in minimum post lengths because a lot of the techniques you covered aren't nearly as effective when you hand over to someone else after a few sentences, hell even the visual elements of the forum get in the way if you're using positioning and the shape your writing for effect.

I think in general tone and pacing don't really carry across multiple posts that well, people use different formatting conventions and they often have to go back to something a few posts ago in order to have their characters react to something important, they can't flow smoothly on from what you put down and when you start writing again you'll be faced with the same problems.

Even in a situation where you want to preserve an urgent pace, to my mind the solution would be to collaborate with the people in the scene on a joint post with something like google docs or titan pad, allowing everyone involved to establish a unified tone or pace for the scene.

 

[Idea]

So I'll finish with this; minimum post length policies are a symptom of a larger issue. It puts the priorties of RPers in the wrong place. What do you really want from an RP? Do you really want flowery sentences and beautiful detail? You can get that from a romantic poem, what's the big deal about RPing, why are you coming back to this instead of finding something more worth reading?
It's really simple, isn't it? Aren't we here to RP because we want to write with someone else? We don't want to write the story alone, and we find it's a lot more fun to let it develop naturally, with other RPers goofing around with us. We're here for a good time, and a fun experience. Writing is a great way to learn new things, and other people are the best way to learn new things from.

I will only be quoting this part, because I think this is the big point of your post and it really shows the difference in mindset between us. Yes, we are here for a good time and a fun experience, but if I find that short posts or minimalistic posts are a bad experience for me, then "I want to have a good time" and "I want beautiful detail" are not mutually exclusive and in fact can even be, to an extent, synonimous.

To get on a more personal level, I do find that my need for detail and my idea of a good experience match. Now, since you and others have begun sharing posts, I would like to share some of my own experiences and posts, and compare my experience with three different scenarios: Short snappy posts between both parties, long posts on one side and short on the other and one with both detailed posts.
For the first one, unfortunately I can't quote because it was in chat form in another site. It was a few months ago and as it turns out it was pretty much the only way to roleplay in that site, so I agreed with it and roleplayed like that. Did I have fun with those roleplays? On occasion, yes, however the thing I want to call into attention is what happened. I was only ever able to be midly interested by the posts and when I finished any of those roleplays, I found that not only had I spent even more time than I might have in a detailed RP, what I felt was a sense of regret. I felt like, after that roleplay, all I had done was thrown time to the trash bin. Just killed time. Needless to say, I left that website.
Now, a bit less time, more recently, I was in a roleplay named "university of mystic". I was actually quite hyped about the roleplay as I had just spent a bunch of time OOC discussing potential plans and talking about the characters, etc... So here is my first post and the response to it:

Spoiler

Avia

​

• Avia's POV

• 
  
  
  "It all looks so pretty. Thank you for coming with me Ae- err, sis. Despite the selfishness of my request."
  
  Striding in my fancy dress colored red, blakc and white, I followed Aelin through the battlegrounds. Although the sun was already setting, and I closed my eyes to take a quick sniff of that flowery scent in the air beneath the cherry trees. It was a moment of clam where one could truly appreciate the beauty of the scene, all of it gently flowing, tha birds that traversed the orange sky in search of a place to stay for the night, the rosed petals that climbed down the breeze to decorate with the ground with the most beautiful of graces, the bittersweet melody of my two feet connecting in an unexpected way due to a misplaced stone, causing me to tumble down and faceplant on the oh so gracious petals I almost swallowed with the scare...
  
  "Owie..." I complained as I pushed myself from that lying position into one on all fours with my free hand, being that the right one was rubbing my nose now. As our first day in this school, this was a disgrace. I had to be more dignified, more lady-like, otherwise I'd embarrass Aelin too. Even if this place was so boring I could yawn for not having been given anything to do on this first day, having left us all to our own devices. In such a place, I could hardly be blamed for being distracted... I hoped. Well, the opening cerimony wouldn't be until tomorrow though and given there were yet new peoplegetting to the school for the first time. I doubted people would judge me just yet.
  
  I hoped.
  
  "So, Aelin... I-" At that moment, as I stood, the sounds of the battle finnally caught up to me. I recognized a figure in the not so great distance a particular figure I would rather avoid, that feline silhouette that clashed with the winged one... I held a hand to my mouth, and turned my gaze away as I slowly got up pretending to struggle. "I apologize for doing this to you after asking you accompany me, but I think I will turn in early for the night. My apologies, but oh I must truly be tired. Do not worry, I should make it fine by myself. If anything, I doubt I would rest well if I robbed you of the chance to see the school due to my own weakness. I will therefore take off to our dorm myself, feel free to return when you have inished your business as well though."
  
  With that, I left, taking my keys and climbing all the stairs just fin, because of course I wasn't really tired, except maybe of the challenges from the pussy cat. I unlocked the door.
  
  "Ah, though, we could have been better allocated better than [dorm number]. Even if home is where the heart is, I feel like my heart may give out if I climb those stairs everyday." I sighed, not even turning on the lights. There wasn't anyone here anyway, and I was supposed to rest. Should I take a shower first? Yeah, why not... wait, were those keys in the desk? I couldn't help but chuckle, it seemed I wasn't the only clumsy one after all, if Aelin forgot her keys in the dorm. Well, I would probably wake up from the nap when she knocked since I wasn't really sleepy this time. I took the keys with me into the bathroom so I wouldn't forget about either, and began striping my clothes while keeping my gaze on the shower. A shower was fine, but you'd never catch me bathing in a bathtub. Ever.
  
  
  interactions: person
  mentions: person person
  also may want to read: person
  
  
  
  

I notice someone come in and a shower go off, heh I guess my roommate is here but I'm too tired to really introduce myself. Hopefully after my nap whoever it is will still be here so I can properly meet their acqaintance. Anyway...back to sleep. Soon after I finish my ramblings I doze off into a somewhat deep sleep.

(note: I moved out the tags on purpose, but everything else is unedited)

Now, what I had was a very different experience. Note, for starters, the first line and first paragraph in my own post: I take my time describing the setting and going through extensive flowery detail. However, I do so in an attempt to solidify a serene and calm tone for the character's POV, to enhance the irony of them then stumbling. While this is flowery and the joke may have gone over a lot of people's heads (I'm no master comedian) what I achieve with it is to add characterization (the character was clumsy yet ashamed of being so, so she tried keeping manners and an air of nobility to compensate) while also introducing the setting and possibly creating tone with a joke. Are these details absolute essential? No, they aren't, but are relevant nonetheless, as even small details can add to the flavor, immersion and tone which are all aspects that help give detailed posts their unique kind of experience.

An important piece of context before we continue is that the character in that second post was not present in the locations where most of my post took place. So, in no way was I expecting them to reply to the vast majority of my post. Furthermore, I am not convinced that even the majority of short minimalist posts are as bad as that one, seeing how the writer barely bother to recognize my post happened, much less interact with me in any way. However, what I want to bring to the table is the differences between how the two posts approach their action, one post trying to create a vivid experience and concrete world while the other is trying to steamroll from action to action, event to event, and how the latter post betrays my desire for that more vivid experience by sucking the post dry of all the elements which a detailed post managed to introduce in one paragraph. With just actions and generic reasoning at best, the character has no character, and if you miss the interaction at some point you don't even leave anything interesting to read. I put so much work and heart into my post and it feels skipped over.

Which is not to say anyone has an obligation to match my desires or my length or detail or care. You don't, nobody does. But when I say "you must post at least X paragraphs" I am looking for people who are into the idea of posting amounts like that. I don't want to force anyone or have them force themselves to post a certain amount, I want people who will return what I want to see because it's what THEY like to make and see. Needless to say, I left this roleplay as well, a few posts later, though there were more reasons for that.

However, as I left that roleplay, there was something I had with me that the death or a roleplay could never take from me, and that was the genuine pride in what I had made. Just as I am no master comedian, I am no master writer, but after putting the attention to detail and effort and all else into each of the posts I made, I could come out without regretting having put in the time to make them. Even if the story never ended, I could live with the thought that those posts had value of their own.

Which brings me to the last RP, which recently died: The Blacklist
Once again, first one of my posts then one of the response posts

Spoiler

Princess Shakesperana
AKA Laura Ojohime

View attachment 375111​

• Laura's POV

• 
  Just the same, lifeless routine. A wooden classroom, for the most part, as our books were paper still and the chalk board still made that same irritating noise as the teacher scribbled on it. The way the strings coming from the ceiling dragged along his makeshift hand reminded me of dragging furniture along a semi-polished floor, squeaking powerless and resisting only by the aid of the outside force known as gravity. Did that force even matter anymore, I wondered. The thin strings that held up the human-sized dolls occcupying the rest of the classroom seats, with the same familiar horrified expressions , certainly didn't seem to think so. The strings would just keep going right across through the ceiling, who knows by what system or manner of magic, dragging along my classmate puppets for each daily activity. The only strange thing about it was how many times we sat on this classroom pretending to hear the teacher instruct us. How silly, right?
  
  Today something was off though. I wondered if I was sick. I wondered if I even COULD get sick. There was a strange pressure behind my eyes. I tryed rubbing it off, facing away from the teacher and towards my classmates yet to my surprise my face met their immutable gazes. How odd, today was. What strange yet familiar pressure. This usually only happened when they came to scorn me in the afternoon...
  
  With that thought, my own marble-like eye slid of it's socket.
  
  .......................................................................................................................................................................................................
  
  I woke up to the noise of a message being transmited to every blacklist member, from the owner of the house where I was staying. By the message itself, it seemed something big was coming, or perhaps, already here. I yawned and stretched, as I climbed out of the bed one foot at a time. I wasn't a big fan of the pink frilly sheets from the bed I had been given (why would anyone have such a thing anyway?), but given the fortune teller didn't seem to budge on the matter of me being able to just take a regular-sized bed I wasn't left much of a choice. At that point in the night, I was so tired I even accepted the invitation to stay over for the night. TWICE.
  
  Just a couple days ago, I was requested for a task from another blacklist member. It seemed they wanted me to look into some object for them, since they heard I was good at analizing things. I couldn't but come at once accompanied only by the huge grin on my face, slamming the door open but stopping it just in time with my magic so that it wouldn't hit the child that seemingly was standing right behind it. They seemed frightened, about to cry, so I quickly bent down and attempted to calm them down with confident words and the offering of a straw doll stored in a marble which I manifested with my spell. Only after this did the Fortune Teller appear, greeting me and seeming to ignore the situation beyond giving the child (whom I guessed was even younger than myself) some reassuring words. I inspected a couple items, and albeit I had barely done anything yet, I was cordially invited to lunch, which I quickly accepted. It was a chance to perhaps improve my own standing within the blacklists, and if I did that, I should be able to take on even more nightmares than those currently being assigned to me. This child, whose named I learned was Ping, had seemingly taken an interest in me, and I ended up finding myself swamped with analysis work. Between Ping interrupting, breaks for meals and the human need for sleep, I had spend two days already analysing the unexpectadly immense pile of magical rubbish.
  
  "Maybe I shouldn't have blurted that joke about her being too old to have a child." I sighed while I picked up the hat that dropped to the ground in my sleep. It was as if she was giving me extra work on purpose. I was kind of suspicious, really, but seeing this message now, perhaps I made a mistake in my preemptive judgement. Did she, perhaps, just maybe, expect this? Was she trying to keep me here knowing there would be a need for my skills? A fortune teller, indeed, if that was the case. A brilliant display of why she was so well-ranked within our organization. I chuckled, thinking how I had been chosen to come of all people.
  
  Admitedly I had been a little terrified in my first time sleeping there. Nothing worth needing to be potty trained again, but still one should not underestimate the experience of a woman often referred to as a witch smiling as she invites you to jump into her oven, and after being pushed into it appearing in what seems to the favorite room of a torturer with a weird fascination for pottery. The room barely held lighting with the power of candles alone, save for a lonely lamp in the ceiling that seemed to have died off. The place itself was a mess with tools and weapons of all kinds, most of which looking like iron. In the corners there were piles of crates, one of which had flann and partially broken, spilling it's contents over the floor. Fortunately, those contents seemed way more resilient than the creepy-looking (and fragile) vases on the shelves some of which so high I wondered if even an adult could reach them without magic or dragging a ladder into the witch's oven. While the doors to which this room lead were much more accomodating, by virtue of being pratically empty walls of dark blue stone except for the basic needs for one's sleep, it was hard to completely shove away the feeling that at any moment the air would heat to 200 degrees or someone would come to take me away into a torture chamber.
  
  Even that wasn't quiet as terrifying as the dream I just had though. What was all that about, anyway? Puppets were creepy enough as they were, getting turned into one while being surrounded by a bunch of gigantic ones? Ewww! The one form of theater I despised, and it had to come hunting me in my dreams. Well, at least I'd be sure to get some pay back with the nightmares in the real world.
  
  I still managed to hear the words about the veterans coming and the promise that no one would die within the witch's territory. Given the sounds of moving plates and utensils I half expected the room to look like it had just been spared a vist by a tornado, but instead as I opened the door I found a pristine shop, almost unnaturally clean given the amount of junk all over it. The woman was busy scribbling something while the girl was entertained playing with the doll I manifested earlier. Not that the original owner should have many complaints about it, since it was in good hands now. So, all that remained for me was to start my day.
  
  "Oh, greetings and salutations! I see the skies are cloudy today. Perhaps hiding the secrets the night left behind? How fair you all, on this yet calm morning?" My arms gestured all over placed, careful only not to accidentally hit anything. Who knew what in here was useless and what was priceless. I decided to approach Ping first since the conversation might take longer with Fortune teller. "I see you appear to be having fun. I hope the present was satisfatory?"
  
  Just as I began to strike that conversation, however, a familiar face presented itself, none other than my "dear" Atlas. he had that smug, confident look to him and his irritating smile, and then he dared offer me a hug. I didn't immediately do it, obviously, I had to first look to both sides, before sparing just one second to quickly hug the man and retreat, turning away to face a wall with embarassment, trying to just occasionally slide my hands through my hair hoping people wouldn't notice me trying to blindly arrange my hair.
  
  "I see you're doing fine yourself, Atlas. Been journeying a lot? Surely you would know that every soul ought to be prepared for engaging the enemy at any time, it would be foolish of me to change garments with the same frequency with which I sleep. Besides, there was little time, I had labors to complete. Many tasks of... well... hum..." While I worded it in such a grandiose manner, now the follow up that I was simply spamming my Code Break spell into random object I was requested to analize all night would be really disappointing. I took a moment to come up with a way of saying it that was more appropriate for the current style of the scene I set up. Oh! I turned and faced the man again, chest inflated with pride. "Yes, I was uncovering the secrets of various artifacts. How could I delay in such important tasks? How selfish of me that would be!"
  
  I gave it a moment, then asked a question of my own:
  
  "Anyway, I trust you're here for that request that just came as well?"
  
  Mentions: person person
  
  

Laslo "Atlas" Thorne
He could not help but smile at her embarrassed expression as she gave him a hug and turned away, but he did not push her. Poor girl was a real fighter considering the situation she was in, and she'd come to him when she felt it was necessary. Her language was as pompous as always. It seemed to annoy some, but Laslo found it harmless and in fact quite endearing. Laura never gave him the idea that she got in over her head, but she had a way of sounding so innocently self-righteous. Strange contradiction, but it was nonetheless adorable.

Fortune-teller, who'd been talking whilst they shared their swift hug, now recieved a glance from Atlas. He simply nodded knowlingly back at her before looking back to Laura, although her words did stick to his mind. Not that the blacklist had a much PR to uphold that he was aware of, but whether he liked it or not they were covering up his tracks. If he kept his antics up it might eventually throw a spanner in the works. He softened his grip on the staff, allowing to slide down and rest over his neck.

Suddenly Ping interjected, and though her first words mildly shocked Atlas the follow up was enough to make him stiffle a chuckle. Laura was not going to like that one. As she went on, Ping continued to poke holes in her words causing Laslo's sides to weakly shake with internal laughter. It continued until a sudden shift in the atmosphere of the room foretold the imminent appearance of Codename:Janus, the God of Doorways. Atlas gave him a glance over his shoulder and recognizing nod, before replying to Laura's earlier inquiry about his reason for joining. "I could hardly pass up an opportunity to show off, could I? 'Sides, someone's gotta keep you grounded. All the... 'investigations' of 'ancient artifacts' might get to your head, y'know?" He joked, then finally rose from the floor.

"And nah, Ping. We're not even related." A solemn thought sounded through his head, "And thank God for that. Being a shitty dad runs in the family." but he quickly shook it out and leaned against his staff. He reached into his backpack with his free hand, and over his shoulder he spotted the Witch getting to preparing some tea in a convoluted fashion. This place truly was full of surprises, in the most literal sense the sentence have ever been spoken."Here," He withdrew his hand from the bag and had produced a comb that he tossed in Laura's general direction. "Believe me, tangles in long hair is no fun. I used to look just like yourself a couple years ago."

Before the chitchat continued, Codename:Kingfisher made his entrance. Loudly, in fact very similar to how Atlas would once have acted, he demanded information immediately. Kingfisher had only arrived a year later into the blacklist, but Atlas was surprised by how similar he'd been to his younger self. Though, they had very obvious differences, and Atlas still respected the man as an equal. In fact, as soon as the Witch had replied to him and invited them all to sit down, Atlas walked up beside him and gave him a pat on the back saying "It's nice to see ya, bud." Before taking the seat opposite of Fortune-teller.

"Well, I for one know everyone in the room. I can't think of- well, actually, Kingfisher, have you had an opportunity to work with Janus before?"

I don't think I have to explain in any degree of detail what I did for that post again. Once more I combined variety in action, multipurpose phrases, and bits of characterization created by how the character talks and describes the world in their own way.

Rather I would like to focus a bit on the other post. Notice how the first introduces the kind of relationship Laslo and Laura have, and how it gives perspective from how they see my character and how they see themselves viewing my character. Notice the subtle set ups, and how in each interaction there is a subtle or not-so-subtle constrast, continuous characterization and the picture you get is just that the characters are integreated into the same reality. That his post and my post are not just in sequence of one another, but that even as they remain independent and unique, one truly a Laura post which would not belong to another character, and one a Laslo post which would never belong to another character either, they still form an actual vivid scene.

This to me, is the difference between correlation and causation, expressed in post form. It's the difference between aknowledging what happens in my posts and caring about what happens in my posts. Is it always like that? Is this even a full objective truth? No, probably not. But the experience I get from reading a post like that as opposed to the other responses I got before, and making a post like Laura's rather than some short bits to move the story, those are worlds apart.


So in the end of the day, why do I want this style of RP, and why would posting minimums help me get to an experience I can actually enjoy?
I don't wanna regret what I made or feel like I wasted my time, so I create with passion and design, create something I feel has worth of it's own. And I want to share that with others who want to read it. I want to share what my mind and my imagination can produce. And I want the responses that I read to have also been aimed in a like-minded manner. I want to be immersed and feel like there is an actual connection there, not just a plot, nor just cardboard cut-outs posing as characters, nor complete ad-libs. I want to roleplay with people who will enjoy reading and producing content similar to my own, but which is not exactly as my own, and I want those people to enjoy themselves doing it too.
If that means a higher chance of it dying, more work and more stress for less simple raw fun, that's a price I am willing to pay for the long lasting joy the detailed style and (well-made) long posts can give me. I just don't think everyone who goes after those same posts is actually facturing in the price they have, and that's what I would say creates the problem.

What separates an RP with a focus on detail from a book?
While I mention this above, I think it's important to highlight the differences:
1. Real sharing with people who will want to read your content: I don't know if you've ever been out there and written short stories that aren't roleplay (by which I don't mean you didn't for certain, I just mean I genuily don't know and it's not necessary to convey my point), but it's so simple to get exposed, much less to get people to want to read what you write. Sure you can request people to do it, but reading and giving feedback of your own accord and doing it as a favor are not the same thing. Roleplaying I have that audience, and better yet, I have an audience which is also wanting to make ME an audience to their own work.

2. Different perspective: When you write a book, the events follow a sequence created by you. In other words, they won't include or present ever possibilities or ideas you wouldn't come up with since, well, you are the one coming up with them. However, roleplaying with someone allows you to taste their take on the matter and show you a different way of handling things, even when you are similar enough with similar enough tastes to want to work together. And you can't truly taste that when posts are minimalistic, because the post becomes a simple reaction or action and loses the flavor detail provides.

 

[Bone2pick]

Maybe it's not getting through, but there is a connection there. Because of the emphasis on detail and post length, what actually matters in RPing was forgotten. You can call that a misunderstanding, but I'm saying it's due to a miscommunication; it's more my fault than theirs.
Everything we require of RPers should be built on the main idea that we're all here to write a collaborative story. Does that make sense?

I saw a similar statement in your post before this one that I also disagreed with. I suggest you reconsider that you have the answers for "why we're all here", "why we all roleplay", and "what the main idea of roleplaying should be." Contrary to what you've posted, it's far from simple. All roleplayers don't share the same primary reward for participating.

 

[Idea]

Stop saying strawman, You're not using the term correctly. When I was listing action post talking points I was using my experiance to give an example of a bloated action post. That is not a strawman.

A strawman would be me putting words in your mouth that you didn't say. Neither my list nor my statement about long ass dialogue were strawman.

Straw man - Wikipedia

"A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition."

So you're telling me that two characters saying 10 lines of dialogue back and forth to each other in monologue form, replying to things in a bullet format, doesn't subtract from realism or immersion?

I never said, before that post at least, that an extravagant amount like 10 lines of dialogue didn't subtract from realism of immersion, as a general rule. Even after having replied to you I only said, at most, that there are situations where this can work and that long sequences of dialogue would actually be more realistic than a flurry of short ones. This, of course, is like water. It's good, but you have too much of it and you drown.

When I say thinking I mean internal dialogue. It is not normal or natural to have a lengthy internal dialogue over something mundane. If you do have lengthy internal dialogues over the act of pouring milk into a bowl of cereal, then You should seek help (that was an exaggeration, as you'll surely quote that and call it a strawman). You seem to intentionally misunderstand what I say, you'e one of those people that really plays semantics hard. Thought = internal dialogue in my context, and my context was pretty clear.

Yes, that's what I was presuming, though I may have missed the nuance. Still, that doesn't really leave you very different from what I said. If when a character looks at somehting and there is a pragraph of describing that thign and connecting it to some aspect of the character , or a few lines of showing the character's thought process are not considered internal monologue, then sure I guess you may have a point that too much internal monolgue is bad, but it's not like detailed RPers actually do it as much as you're implying.

If, on the other, the kind of thing I mentioned IS considered internal monologue by your nuance, then my point stands because the difference you point out is irrelevant to it.

Also, I can't influence a readers' pace? Really? That's interesting, go back a few lines and re read the part about creating rhythm.

I didn't say influence, I said "control". If we're talking nuances maybe you should actually pay attention to what I say.

Good luck telling a frantic war scene in second by second form without destroying immersion, you want your reader in the story, in the moment, overwriting can kill that

Tell that to the Illiad

Time and time again you minimize the idea of pacing. The length of sentences, and the length of words even, can effect this as well as overall pace of storytelling (Good luck telling a frantic war scene in second by second form without destroying immersion, you want your reader in the story, in the moment, overwriting can kill that).

You build like this.

With a short statement.

Something small to attract attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, it is found in all writing.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last, creating rhythm.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. It's nuanced, appealing to our subconscious. Within the best prose, it is always found.

You really miss the mark with pacing. Pacing in writing can separate average from good, good and great and great from world class.

Also, I can't influence a readers' pace? Really? That's interesting, go back a few lines and re read the part about creating rhythm.

"A short statement.

Something small to attract attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, it is found in all writing.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last, creating rhythm.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. It's nuanced, appealing to our subconscious. Within the best prose, it is always found."

Before I intentionally created an inverse pyramid. It creates momentum in writing. Starting small and ending larger, like a snowball rolling down a hill. Continuing into a diamond is a good way to build momentum and end with decisively (after hitting max length, work back down to shorter sentences).

Now I'll intentionally tweak the sentence structure and make a cube formation.

"With a brief statement, something small to attract your attention.

So begins a rhythm as cadence is put to page by our sample writer.

This isn't exclusive to poetry or song, in all writing it can be found.

A pyramid structure, where every sentence is longer than the last.

Rhythm in writing is a subtle. Appealing to our subconscious mind.

The best writers all do it, the next time you read, pay attention to this."

In this example, the sentences are quite even in size. Because of this it gives the writing a more stable feeling, like a drum beat.

With some line breaks, semi colons, some of this --- or ... and planned sentence length, the pace that a reader digests the material can be manipulated to enhance the material. Even if the exact speed of the reader doesn't change drastically, the perception of what transpires can be altered.

That doesn't read well, just broken. Not that I missed the point, yes, you can influence the pacing. But I can get up mid post and drink a coup of water, or I can miss a word, or maybe I just focus more on a particular word more than you expected and boom there goes your work towards pacing. And sure, it's not entirely lost, but there are things which are NOT lost and which bear a LOT more into a story's weight and meaning than pacing.

Plus for someone who advocated removing entire chunks of detail for the sake of being more on point, bringing this pseudo-intellectual pacing by word count into the fray doesn't help your case

"In the face of such terror, Hunter could no longer hold back"

...worse than a paragraph about how much the hero wants to end the villain? This is ofc assuming that this villain has some buildup, not just appearing from nowhere.

Something like the stakes of a fight should be shown and not told. Telling the reader everything that can possibly be gleaned from a situation is somewhat disrespectful to their intelligence. Some things should be seen through common sense and not heard through internal monologue. If a villain has been romping around killing people is a statement like...

The irony of it is that you answer your own question. Spending a paragh detailing that the hero wants to kill the villain, is showing not telling that the hero could no longer hold back. Plus, setting aside the whole matter that if the villain is obviously evil by some standards you probably aren't making such a great villain, the paragraph gives what is missing in the sentence, characterization, a personal element to connect the hero the readers or roleplayers. The hero isn't a machine taking in input terror and output not hold back, what drives them foward is the desire to kill but that's what's important to show.

Showing not telling is precisely the simplication of somehting by simply stating the action happened, instead of depicting it happen and trust the readers to understand the point even as they experience what's happen. And I say experience, not aknowledge, because that's the difference created by the paragraph depicting the hero's intent on taking down the villain, and the sentence that merely states they did the obvious.

Again I must insist, I am not against detail, nor do I write shallow. I just attempt to write contextually.

his is a pointless exercise. Most of "detailed" writers are garbage, thinking that stuffing their writing with as many words as possible is a good way to write, lol, it's actually awful. It doesn't sound profound, it doesn't sound smart, it sounds like a high school kid trying to get extra points by using lots of SAT words in an essay.

 

[Idea]

I'll just here a few reasons why writing samples are an even worse way of asserting quality:

1.People handpick their writing samples. They won't just give you their average

2.Writing samples are a single post, and doesn't account for the fact that people's lives are mutable

3.Writing samples are 1 post, one instance, as opposed to the multitude a player will have to go through

4.Evaluation of writing samples is measured on the whims of those reading them (when they read and don't just skim) moreso than reasonable criteria

5.Writing samples are devoid of the proper context found in an RP

I don't know who was bringing up writing samples again, but here are my reasons to think they are ultimately worse than posting minimums

 

[rae2nerdy]

Idea I believe it was Quirky and Bone. As to your point you can get around this by using a writing sample thread as I detailed above

Make a thread with as wide variety of posts as possible. Also linking said posts to the roleplay they came from.

Or you can just link a previous roleplay outright ( this is better in 1x1s where it's easier to pinpoint specific people's replies )

I mean I still think it's not like a super useful skill in a group setting just for the sheer time it would take to actually get a proper overview of each players writing history.

But it is possible to do it more effectively if you just expand on your request much the same way you can make a post minimum more useful by expanding on a request for that.

Instead of
- Please put a writing sample in your character sheet

Ask
- Please include the following samples in your character sheet.

A reply
An intro
Your most recent roleplay sample
Your shortest response
Your longest response​

You may combine some of these requests if needed. If you do not have any current roleplay samples PM the GM for alternate submission methods.

I mean that's a lot of work on behalf of your player you could also just ask straight up for a link to one of their previous roleplays as well.

 

[Idea]

Idea I believe it was Quirky and Bone. As to your point you can get around this by using a writing sample thread as I detailed above

Make a thread with as wide variety of posts as possible. Also linking said posts to the roleplay they came from.

Or you can just link a previous roleplay outright ( this is better in 1x1s where it's easier to pinpoint specific people's replies )

I mean I still think it's not like a super useful skill in a group setting just for the sheer time it would take to actually get a proper overview of each players writing history.

But it is possible to do it more effectively if you just expand on your request much the same way you can make a post minimum more useful by expanding on a request for that.

Instead of
- Please put a writing sample in your character sheet

Ask
- Please include the following samples in your character sheet.

A reply
An intro
Your most recent roleplay sample
Your shortest response
Your longest response​

You may combine some of these requests if needed. If you do not have any current roleplay samples PM the GM for alternate submission methods.

I mean that's a lot of work on behalf of your player you could also just ask straight up for a link to one of their previous roleplays as well.

Those are some interesting suggestions. However, I don't think that most solve the issue writing samples have and the remainer just isn't pratical.

Rather than trying to detail how each of them fails the fundamental issue and repeaitng myself, I'd rather just expose the issue: Writing samples fail because the interests of the player are in direct opposition to the point of the writing sample. A player wants to get approval, so as a rational being, they will choose what they think is more likely to get that approval, regardless of whether that is a faithful representation of what can expected of them.

In any form of writing sample where you get a writing sample chosen by the player, you're gonna come across that problem. Now, one of your suggestions does in fact, manage to avoid it, that being requesting a link to one of hte player's roleplays. However, that has the problem of you needing to read several posts from the player and whoeever they were partnering with in that roleplay for every single player proposing to join your RP

I also have one more issue with them, though this one is less general and more personal, so I didn't include it in the list before, and that is the idea that one should handpick who can come and go, judge them as individuals and place yourself in such a high horse that you think you can tell the good from the bad with a small sample of their writing.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Those are some interesting suggestions. However, I don't think that most solve the issue writing samples have and the remainer just isn't pratical.

Rather than trying to detail how each of them fails the fundamental issue and repeaitng myself, I'd rather just expose the issue: Writing samples fail because the interests of the player are in direct opposition to the point of the writing sample. A player wants to get approval, so as a rational being, they will choose what they think is more likely to get that approval, regardless of whether that is a faithful representation of what can expected of them.

In any form of writing sample where you get a writing sample chosen by the player, you're gonna come across that problem. Now, one of your suggestions does in fact, manage to avoid it, that being requesting a link to one of hte player's roleplays. However, that has the problem of you needing to read several posts from the player and whoeever they were partnering with in that roleplay for every single player proposing to join your RP

I also have one more issue with them, though this one is less general and more personal, so I didn't include it in the list before, and that is the idea that one should handpick who can come and go, judge them as individuals and place yourself in such a high horse that you think you can tell the good from the bad with a small sample of their writing.

I wasn't like arguing for post samples I was just saying that they can be used to get a broader look at someone's skillset than just some cherry picked writing sample showing their best version of writing.

I mean I personally think logistically you're honestly better off just writing in a detailed post requirement into your rules and trusting your players to follow that.

But in the interest of making a good faith effort to debate an alternative to straight or even modified post length requirements I don't think they're innately bad. Or at least no worse than just putting up a post requirement and hoping that everyone is on equal footing.

The thing is as I said you can ask for a roleplay sample. Which is honestly the easiest thing for your players themselves as they can just link your their latest roleplay. Or you can stalk their post histories and look up that to see what their writing samples actually are. Heck you can do that even if you just straight request them to send you a series of writing samples.

If they have no current samples / no history on this site than asking them to write responses to prompts can work. The idea is your getting not just their best work but you're getting a variety of their work. You are getting a short post, a long post, an introduction, a reply, an average response.

So they can't just show you the best version of their response they have to show you a variety. And even if they are putting their best foot forward in all their samples it atleast shows you they HAVE a best foot. So they are capable of reaching that level of writing even if it isn't something they do with every post.

Heck if you honestly think anyone is going to post the same quality work for every response than you have a much bigger problem than using post samples incorrectly.

I mean again I think this is a bad idea just for the sheer amount of detective work the GM is going to have to do in order for the whole process to be useful in anyway. You have to read multiple writing samples, another roleplay, and/or stalk someone's post history. All to determine if they meet your own personal standard of writing ability.

It's honestly exhausting. I did a modified version of this on another site where folks actually did keep writing sample portfolios ( and I had them answer prompts for canon characters ) and like three character sheets in I knew I was going to have to come up with a different method because the current one was not working at all.

So I do not necessarily think they are a perfect ( or honestly even particularly efficient ) replacement for post requirements. But if someone is determined to use them there are ways to increase their usefulness in a roleplay setting.

EDITED - a little for clarity.

 

[Idea]

I wasn't like arguing for post samples I was just saying that they can be used to get a broader look at someone's skillset than just some cherry picked writing sample showing their best version of writing.

I mean I personally think logistically you're honestly better off just writing in a detailed post requirement into your rules and trusting your players to follow that.

But in the interest of making a good faith effort to debate an alternative to straight or even modified post length requirements I don't think they're innately bad. Or at least no worse than just putting up a post requirement and hoping that everyone is on equal footing.

The thing is as I said you can ask for a roleplay sample. Which is honestly the easiest thing for your players themselves as they can just link your their latest roleplay. Or you can stalk their post histories and look up that to see what their writing samples actually are. Heck you can do that even if you just straight request them to send you a series of writing samples.

If they have no current samples / no history on this site than asking them to write responses to prompts can work. The idea is your getting not just their best work but you're getting a variety of their work. You are getting a short post, a long post, an introduction, a reply, an average response.

So they can't just show you the best version of their response they have to show you a variety. And even if they are putting their best foot forward in all their samples it atleast shows you they HAVE a best foot. So they are capable of reaching that level of writing even if it isn't something they do with every post.

Heck if you honestly think anyone is going to post the same quality work for every response than you have a much bigger problem than using post samples incorrectly.

I mean again I think this is a bad idea just for the sheer amount of detective work the GM is going to have to do in order for the whole process to be useful in anyway. You have to read multiple writing samples, another roleplay, and/or stalk someone's post history. All to determine if they meet your own personal standard of writing ability.

It's honestly exhausting. I did a modified version of this on another site where folks actually did keep writing sample portfolios ( and I had them answer prompts for canon characters ) and like three character sheets in I knew I was going to have to come up with a different method because the current one was not working at all.

So I do not necessarily think they are a perfect ( or honestly even particularly efficient ) replacement for post requirements. But if someone is determined to use them there are ways to increase their usefulness in a roleplay setting.

Guess you have a point

 

[rae2nerdy]

Guess you have a point

Yeah I mean it's a roundabout way of essentially getting to the same point you would with this statement

Your responses must each contribute to the current action of the roleplay while allowing for your partners to make a response. You must use your best effort with spelling and grammar and be willing to edit your post if there is any confusion or extraneous detail.​

I mean I do agree that the problem with the above and with post samples is it's a little bit too much like the GM playing by arbitrary rules to fit their own personal standards of good / bad writing.

But if that's what your going for in your weeding out process their are certainly worse ways to go about it.

 

[Idea]

Yeah I mean it's a roundabout way of essentially getting to the same point you would with this statement

Your responses must each contribute to the current action of the roleplay while allowing for your partners to make a response. You must use your best effort with spelling and grammar and be willing to edit your post if there is any confusion or extraneous detail.
I mean I do agree that the problem with the above and with post samples as it's a little bit too much like the GM playing by arbitrary rules to fit their own personal standards of good / bad writing.

I wouldn't say that. Mainly because writing samples don't necessarily have real standards, just preferences. By which I mean the selection process is based not on a criteria that is applied to everyone, but on which posts give a better impression to the GM, the criteria isn't fixed or real, which is worse than it just being arbitrary. But, again, that's just my experience with posting samples.

But if that's what your going for in your weeding out process their are certainly worse ways to go about it.

Sure, I just don't think minimum requirements are one of those worse ways

 

[rae2nerdy]

I wouldn't say that. Mainly because writing samples don't necessarily have real standards, just preferences. By which I mean the selection process is based not on a criteria that is applied to everyone, but on which posts give a better impression to the GM, the criteria isn't fixed or real, which is worse than it just being arbitrary. But, again, that's just my experience with posting samples.


Sure, I just don't think minimum requirements are one of those worse ways

Well the writing rule is still something that is enforced arbitrarily through what the GM's idea of what constitutes extraneous detail.
And a wide selection of post samples should indicate whether you can give your partners something to respond to ( and linking them to a roleplay will show if you can follow a current action ).

So as I said the post samples are a much more roundabout way of getting that same basic information.

And I wasn't trying to say post minimums were worst than any other method. I was just saying if your going to pick an alternative to them for whatever reason post samples aren't the worst thing you could do.

I mean personally in 1x1s the whole lot of it is useless because you can take the super easy route of just straight talking to the other person about their posts and figuring out compromises that way.

But obviously in groups that's not really possible. And if for some reason the GM is just dead set against post minimums ( maybe like many of the folks on this thread they just have a bad experience ) then post samples can be used to reasonable effect as an alternative.

It's a time consuming and a little inefficient alternative sure. But it is still an alternative if you just don't want to do post minimums for whatever reason.

 

[Idea]

Well the writing rule is still something that is enforced arbitrarily through what the GM's idea of what constitutes extraneous detail.

But the writing rule let's the players know what they are aiming for, and that there is an actual goal other than just pleasing the GM