Other Minimum post lengths

[Killigrew]

I'd actually say detailed and having a quote is MORE apt for those things than the opposite, as you actually get room to show the character transition rather than have them just up and change suddenly.

Well, arguably without a quota you'd have opportunity to add the detail you want without feeling obligation!

 

[Idea]

I have quite a few open-world RPs that I’ve worked on, by myself and with other members of the community here, and the solution that has usually worked best for me/us is to leave the focus centered on the characters and their location, or leading their destination if the story involves some continual active motion from one point to another. Like you said, the only thing the players need is the overall layout of the world they are in to provide context, and the local lore of the place they are currently. BUT, that doesn’t mean you should neglect the rest of your world, it’s a living and breathing system that will run itself if you give it a backbone to form around. In your example, having multiple kingdoms means you have agreed as the GM to manage multiple kingdoms. Even if they aren’t important to the story, if they’re just a name and a general place you’ll never go to, you should still flesh it out to the point that a player can work with it. Maybe they want to create a character who hails from one of those kingdoms, maybe they had a reason to journey to one of them before they got involved in the overarching story, you never know the reason for a player’s motives, but if you leave the world as an open, blank slate with just a general history penciled in, you lose out on a whole sphere of creativity for your players to tap into. Or worse, leaving it so open and completely undefined gives players total freedom to make up what they want, and quite a few will railroad your story or make up convenient locations and lore of their own that could overthrow the direction you as the creator have put into place that you’d have to fix. An ounce of prevention for a pound of cure.

And even if the players don’t need the details of other major places, the kingdoms and cities and people all still interact with each other, they don’t stand still when you’re not looking. They will still connect and influence and alter each other without player interference, and the aftermath of such interactions may be of inportance to the general lore as a whole. For example, two kingdoms the players have never even heard of go to war, suddenly they’re dealing with refugees and travelers and soldiers who come marching through their plotline. Is it of plot-related importance? Possibly not, it might just be a stand-alone event they never have to deal with, but it still directs the currents of the world around them. You don’t even have to make it a public announcement to the players, you can just drop little hints, so what if the players never pass through the war zone, they could still stay the night at a village that’s afraid they’ll be next, they could still pass by conscripted soldiers making their way to the front, they could still “accidentally” affect the players, and vice versa, the players could accidentally sway the world around them without even knowing, which could lead to changes in the world that they do know. If you pass up the chance for these collisions of “background places”, then you totally pass up the chance to add depth and relatability to your story, and you trade in a living, shifting, progressing world for a book-cover “here’s what’s happened so far” synopsis.

True. That's quite the insight you've got there

 

[Killigrew]

I'm a little worried you're just saying that to get out of the argument...discussion? With this weirdo here

Rofl never! I was raised on Galaxy Quest!! "Never give up, never surrender!" In this case, I was legitimately enlightened.

 

[QuirkyAngel]

Well, arguably without a quota you'd have opportunity to add the detail you want without feeling obligation!

Without a sense of obligation, players wouldn't feel the need to add the detail I want. That's been my experience anyway.

 

[Idea]

Well, arguably without a quota you'd have opportunity to add the detail you want without feeling obligation!

But you also loose the incentive to think about those things. A lot of players will tell you they care, but they won't actually put thought into whether the character is being portrayed well or whether they are developing... After all, those are things that don't directly contribute to a lot of people's fun and immediate gratification, they involve at least some degree of long-term thinking. I'm not calling anyone dumb, but I think it is common sense that while certainly some just enjoy the detail, the rest won't bother with those aspects because they are harder and less gratifying than the other option.

Edit: Especially if we're talking younger players or players convinced that simply creating the character= giving the character development

 

[Killigrew]

Without a sense of obligation, players wouldn't feel the need to add the detail I want. That's been my experience anyway.

But what about you? Would you feel the need to add worthy detail? I imagine so. Surely you aren't the only one; there are more like you out there.

Also I'll try and reply to your longer posts once I'm home. Excuse my sloth.

But you also loose the incentive to think about those things. A lot of players will tell you they care, but they won't actually put thought into whether the character is being portrayed well or whether they are developing... After all, those are things that don't directly contribute to a lot of people's fun and immediate gratification, they involve at least some degree of long-term thinking. I'm not calling anyone dumb, but I think it is common sense that while certainly some just enjoy the detail, the rest won't bother with those aspects because they are harder and less gratifying than the other option.

Edit: Especially if we're talking younger players or players convinced that simply creating the character= giving the character development

Then it is simply a matter of finding the right cast with shared interest.
If they impose a standard on themselves, I think their writing and desire to participate will increase. At least, it certainly would for me. I have a lot more fun when I'm writing for the thrill of it rather than out of obligation.

 

[Idea]

Then it is simply a matter of finding the right cast with shared interest.

Which is exactly the point of posting minimums

 

[Idea]

Rofl never! I was raised on Galaxy Quest!! "Never give up, never surrender!" In this case, I was legitimately enlightened.

Very well, then let me say thank you for the wonderful discussion! I'd say you too have opened my mind to a perspective and some possibilities I didn't see before, some which I would love try out when I find myself with the right opportunity. It's always a pleasure to have a civilized, constructive discussion with someone

 

[Killigrew]

Which is exactly the point of posting minimums

Ha, and so we come full circle.

I'll just allow that a length quota is a good way for a newcomer to a site to find likeminded individuals, but overall the lore and setting do a better job of establishing a precedent.

 

[Idea]

Ha, and so we come full circle.

I'll just allow that a length quota is a good way for a newcomer to a site to find likeminded individuals, but overall the lore and setting do a better job of establishing a precedent.

Not what I've experienced, but I'll it at a "perhaps"

 

[QuirkyAngel]

But what about you? Would you feel the need to add worthy detail? I imagine so. Surely you aren't the only one; there are more like you out there.

Also I'll try and reply to your longer posts once I'm home. Excuse my sloth.

Yes. In almost all the rps I join, I'd do it whether the gm asks me to detail or not. To forbid it is to stymie me as a writer.

Oh, I'm certain there's more people with my tastes out there...but there's only one of me

I'm also certain I mentioned somewhere that I don't even have a post minimum in the rp I'm running. But I understand why it might be used, so I'm not against it. The same way I don't write flowery, but I can appreciate its prettiness and can find entertainment reading it. Rules exist for a reason. We separate simple, casual, and detailed rps to enhance the enjoyment of different rpers. A post minimum tells the players that they want a certain length in player posts (whatever their reasons may be, I won't judge). It clarifies things in a way I could appreciate and it's fair and it's not too strict (at least I haven't seen a post min above 3 paragraphs). It doesn't say you have to be a good writer, or I want your replies to be detailed in this particular manner.

Stickdom and rae2nerdy brought up good solutions to those who don't like post minimums. But Stick also mentioned that his solution would be difficult/messy, and I agree. In my view, explaining what you want to an rper, all you want to get from their post, is a skill that not all gms possess. If communication were easy, we wouldn't be having long debates over a single topic. No one would feel slighted or that their thoughts were being misunderstood. "Good" writing is also something that's arguable. That's why rules exist. A post minimum is a rule. Does it always produce the best results...not necessarily. But I've also seen simple players, who aren't normally detailed, improve their writing because of that rule as well. I've seen it encourage thinking. The skilled players you're talking about were already skilled from the start. They don't need the minimum to write...but what about the players that aren't so good? I'm inclined to fairness. And that means I'll allow any player, of any skill level, to try if they at least try to meet my requirements.

Edit: Ah, and your post is fine. It got the point across.

 

[Bone2pick]

To your first question, yes. More merit in the sense that it makes the experience of the RP generally more exciting.

You're only speaking of your own experience then? A statement of preference? Because that's not the case for me, or I imagine, lots of others.

By spontaneous I mean ideas springing up while you're reading their response, and perhaps filtered out with care, but definite direction. From this is derived genuine friendship or enmity between characters.

Whether ideas formulate while I'm reading a post or two hours later is irrelevant. In your words, it's arbitrary. I only care about which ideas are better for the story. And from my own experience and what I observe in others, better story ideas usually correlate with more consideration than less.

To your second question, post quota RPs have a slow pace, so even while you move on to the next scene, you tend to forget the previous, and even when you reread and remember, the same momentum and excitement has faded and the post reply is lackluster as a result. Worse still, the same thing is happening on the other players' end. All the detail gets in the way of the larger picture, the relationship.

No I disagree with all of that. The enthusiasm I have for my posts is only partially drawn from others players (and sometimes not at all) but rather the quality of what I intend to create, and how I execute it. The details don't get in the way, they enrich the story. They add to my immersion. There's nothing lackluster about lovingly crafted posts imo.

 

[Killigrew]

It doesn't say you have to be a good writer, or I want your replies to be detailed in this particular manner.

Agreed. It serves no literary purpose when it comes to content. It is a quantity requisite rather than a quality requisite, not unlike 'I would like you to post x number of times on y number of days.' It's something people RPing do to communicate something other than what they want... except in the cases I've overlooked.

In my view, explaining what you want to an rper, all you want to get from their post, is a skill that not all gms possess.

Nah, I don't think you'd need to explain everything, since if they enjoy writing like they find in books, there's already enough in common to result in the post ya want. Things that happen naturally are much preferred, ay, especially over what's thrust upon them by way of explanation.
It's usually the people I find by accident that I like RPing with the most and learn the most from!

but what about the players that aren't so good? I'm inclined to fairness. And that means I'll allow any player, of any skill level, to try if they at least try to meet my requirements.

I mean, if anything that'd be sacrificing high standards in my opinion. One who's willing to grow is great, but if they lack the skill to be flexible in length and style, their contributions may harm the RP as a whole... Which is rare! Usually people think worse of their skills than is true. Usually I love reading posts and seeing wonderful contributions, even if they aren't feasible.

You're only speaking of your own experience then? A statement of preference? Because that's not the case for me, or I imagine, lots of others.

Am I only speaking from my own experience? Are you speaking from your own experience? What do you mean by experience? What sort of knowledge would change your mind on the subject? Would it take a new experience? An author you respect?
If you're already settled on the matter, I must subjectively declare that it would not be very rewarding to engage with you.

Whether ideas formulate while I'm reading a post or two hours later is irrelevant. In your words, it's arbitrary. I only care about which ideas are better for the story. And from my own experience and what I observe in others, better story ideas usually correlate with more consideration than less.

Not sure what you're arguing here, let alone what about.
What's that to do with post quota? If you read a long post or a short one, you may be inspired the same amount. It just depends on the context. Sometimes more consideration can be bad, sometimes less... I was only defining spontaneity in what you quoted to pre-empt the argument that I like lazy posts. I didn't want to deal with that whole shebang again.

No I disagree with all of that. The enthusiasm I have for my posts is only partially drawn from others players (and sometimes not at all) but rather the quality of what I intend to create, and how I execute it. The details don't get in the way, they enrich the story. They add to my immersion. There's nothing lackluster about lovingly crafted posts imo.

Ok, so by all of that, do you mean you disagree that post quotas result in a slow pace?
You tellin' me you could pick up a book seven days later and feel the same enthusiasm reading it as you would reading it day by day? Because that sounds a lot more like what results from reading poetry than literature tbh.

 

[QuirkyAngel]

Agreed. It serves no literary purpose when it comes to content. It is a quantity requisite rather than a quality requisite, not unlike 'I would like you to post x number of times on y number of days.' It's something people RPing do to communicate something other than what they want... except in the cases I've overlooked.

I'd rather people give me too much 'blah' information than to give me too less...then expect me just to read their mind...because they claimed to have so many plans that they didn't bother to put into words. I'm a lover of ideas. Idea and I have similar tastes, but different standards when it comes to gming. I'm not picky. In fact, I'd almost say I have low standards. That's a personal thing. I don't expect anything from the rpers I write with. I want stuff. But I don't demand it. I write for myself. Therefore I want to rp with other players who write for themselves. Who have the confidence to rp with me and hold nothing back of their thoughts and ideas. We can work together to put craziness together in a coherent story...but first I need content. I don't even demand "good" content. Just content...just give me your best and that's all I could ever ask. That's my style of gming. I don't think post limits are difficult and those who are willing to keep up with are usually the ones I want to rp with. It tells me they're willing to work for the story. That's how I see things anyway.

But then you've had different experiences than I, so if you've found things are better when gm without a post limit, all the power to you^^ Just as long as you don't get frustrated when people don't see things your way. As I said, I've seen the good side of post limits as well. So to say it serves no literary purpose is false in mind, since it can force people who are interested in the rp to try and write. Because, even when you think you have no ideas, ideas can come if you try. If you work at it.

 

[Tabby]

Usually the positive or negative of it will be implied rather than stated. Like if a guy were to say, "Stop there, and say no further. You're grating me ears down to the bone." etc, etc, it's more outward and therefore more for the character to work with than an internal monologue posted after the fact. I kind of feel like I shouldn't need to explain that -- was it obvious to you? Maybe I missed your point??

If that's all you got from my entire post then yeah you definitely missed the point. All the other examples of stuff in a convo that might be relevant? Even using your bare bones example, WHY and HOW does it grate his ears? Does he not have any brain at all to the point that he literally doesn't know -why- it bothers him? Is it the tone? The context? The content? What about it causes that reaction and why does he have that reaction?

Y'all keep talking about the ideal of brevity (which I'm all for) and perfect one liners, but pretty much every example I've gotten or seen has been complete shit roleplaying that barely even qualifies as RP at all, just generic bare bones, poorly written conversation that would be at home in an AIM chatroom.

To your first question, yes. More merit in the sense that it makes the experience of the RP generally more exciting. By spontaneous I mean ideas springing up while you're reading their response, and perhaps filtered out with care, but definite direction. From this is derived genuine friendship or enmity between characters.

To your second question, post quota RPs have a slow pace, so even while you move on to the next scene, you tend to forget the previous, and even when you reread and remember, the same momentum and excitement has faded and the post reply is lackluster as a result. Worse still, the same thing is happening on the other players' end. All the detail gets in the way of the larger picture, the relationship.

...Which further makes me question if you even understand the basic idea of what detailed roleplay is or if you're just talking out of your ass. I'm going with the latter given your unwarranted condescension and struggle to understand what anyone else is talking about.

 

[Idea]

I'm a lover of ideas. @Idea and I have similar tastes

 

[Bone2pick]

Am I only speaking from my own experience? Are you speaking from your own experience?

In terms of what makes an RP exciting one can only speak from their experience. On that front you have no business speaking for me nor I you.

What do you mean by experience?

Try not to lose the plot here.

What sort of knowledge would change your mind on the subject? Would it take a new experience? An author you respect?

What sort of knowledge would change my mind on what roleplay elements do and don't excite me? Certainly not your subjective opinion - as if that would even qualify for knowledge.

If you're already settled on the matter, I must subjectively declare that it would not be very rewarding to engage with you.

Yes, my mind is quite settled on the reasons why I enjoy roleplaying, as if that's a bad a thing. You've recently spouted your own subjective experiences as if they're RP gospel and they're no such thing. They're simply your preferences. And they're not legitimate arguments against paragraph requirements.

Not sure what you're arguing here, let alone what about.
What's that to do with post quota? If you read a long post or a short one, you may be inspired the same amount. It just depends on the context. Sometimes more consideration can be bad, sometimes less...

It was a challenge that players prefer (or even greatly value) spontaneity over carefully considered story ideas. One of your cornerstones of merit. It reads straightforward to me.

Ok, so by all of that, do you mean you disagree that post quotas result in a slow pace?

I never said that. Honestly, I don't remember using the word "pace" in this entire thread. So no that's not what I mean.

You tellin' me you could pick up a book seven days later and feel the same enthusiasm reading it as you would reading it day by day? Because that sounds a lot more like what results from reading poetry than literature tbh.

I couldn't make sense of your second sentence so I'll only address the first. Yes I could. Ever hear of comic books, they're a month a part. How about weekly television series? How about movie or book sequels? But more importantly, to get back on track to roleplaying, yes I prefer a slower pace on this site. In my experience (I wish you'd use that phrase more often) it correlates with more carefully considered - dare I suggest higher quality - posts. My enthusiasm, my interest (as opposed to yours) isn't tethered so tightly to response time. Quality > speed of reply imho. I have my own limits, but even those limits change depending on the overall quality of the RP.

 

[yanastyboi]

This has been a "thing" since I started forum/para RP. I've seen so many iterations of this and seen it taken to the extreme. I do like it though because it gives a potential partner / group an idea of what to expect from me / others in the group.

I do hold to a min/max myself, they aren't strict "not less than, must not exceed" because that is extreme and honestly silly. You will write what you need to and if it is more or less than my expectations it is fine, because the post either needed less or more to get the point across. I simply like having it because if someone wants me to write 600 word every reply then we can't RP I can't do that for them.



My personal min/max is 150 - 600 words. Which is both easy to meet and difficult to exceed without being fairly long winded (this is also based on the pace of my RPs which tend to be fairly quick, so usually more wordy replies aren't necessarily needed, though I have on occassion exceeded my max but it's rare).

Spoiler

150 WORDS
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600 WORDS
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[memphis]

I think minimum post lengths are fair enough. I've seen them around for as long as I've been roleplaying, and though I know sometimes they can come off as elitist, I believe they're just a measure that is imposed to make sure everyone is pulling their weight in a rp!

As someone who has a tendency to write a lot, I know from experience it is quite discouraging to give someone 1500 words and only get back a few sentences. By talking post lengths to partners and potential partners, it ensures that everyone knows what to expect from one another.

I also know people try to make the appeal "well what if someone can further the plot in just a couple sentences", but I'd say the vast majority of the time that just doesn't happen. I believe firmly in quality over quantity when it comes to writing, but it is nice to have a little prose and detail to make replies from my partners something I actually want to read and respond to!

 

[JokerValentine]

I didn't at all see this thread, and I goofed and accidentally posted my own. Oops.

Regardless, I do have my own minimum post requirements, but it doesn't at all feel right. A good response is not foremost judged by its length, it's the content that matters. I don't think it makes sense to have the quality of a response (or role player, as was the harsh judgment handed down to some in my former community) by the quantity.

That being said, detail does matter, but to an extent. One-liners feel really bad to write, personally, but in certain contexts and for certain people, they work well. For example, in a collaborative effort, one-liners work well if you're fighting and you want to make it fair. But even then, a post is a moment. Too long, and the best part of your reply is no longer easily its central focus. Too short, and you leave your partner with little to work off of.

I leave with two quotes I picked up recently: one was from a professor, "if it's worth writing down, it can be made concise." The second one is a bastardization of a computer science quote: "we write replies for other people as well, not just ourselves."

 

[QuirkyAngel]

"we write replies for other people as well, not just ourselves."

This is possibly the reason some of my replies might be hard to respond to, though no one I've rped with have actively pointed that out yet.

I think those who write too long simply try too hard, meaning they care more about other people's opinion then they let on...though that might just be positive thinking on my part. Most good writers I've encountered tend to be egotists

 

[JokerValentine]

This is possibly the reason some of my replies might be hard to respond to, though no one I've rped with have actively pointed that out yet.

I think those who write too long simply try too hard, meaning they care more about other people's opinion then they let on...though that might just be positive thinking on my part. Most good writers I've encountered tend to be egotists

I think there are a lot of exceptions to the rule. Writing long posts doesn't make you selfish, but writing only long posts for cosmetic reasons can surely come across as that.

 

[QuirkyAngel]

I think there are a lot of exceptions to the rule. Writing long posts doesn't make you selfish, but writing only long posts for cosmetic reasons can surely come across as that.

lol. I'm talking about good writers, not good roleplayers.

It's probably because I encounter a lot of shy rpers, but I don't find selfishness necessarily a bad thing...as long as they don't start negatively affecting another character without consent. Like stabbing a character without permission <.< Otherwise, I think fluff is cute.

 

[JokerValentine]

lol. I'm talking about good writers, not good roleplayers.

It's probably because I encounter a lot of shy rpers, but I don't find selfishness necessarily a bad thing...as long as they don't start negatively affecting another character without consent. Like stabbing a character without permission <.< Otherwise, I think fluff is cute.

Ah. I don't like being stabbed without my permission either.

The thing about fluff is: why bother? If it's a cosmetic thing, I guess, but if it doesn't help with story or character development, why?

 

[QuirkyAngel]

Ah. I don't like being stabbed without my permission either.

The thing about fluff is: why bother? If it's a cosmetic thing, I guess, but if it doesn't help with story or character development, why?

It's the difference between those who like a simple 'I cast fire magic on you' to getting a vivid description of the fire magic from the searing hot , 1000 degrees flames that burns a brilliant shade of azure. Taste.