Meaningful Content Without God-Modding

[White Masquerade]

Hello all. I'm new to this site and role-playing in general, so when I saw that people had an intense dislike for God-modding, I was a bit shocked. Isn't it necessary? I can't understand how interaction between two people can happen without it otherwise.

Example

Let's say there are two RPers who have their respective characters meet. John says hey, what would you like to do today Sue?( <----Here is my issue.) What the heck else is John's author supposed to post about? I guess he can post about what Sue is wearing, or what is running through his head, but in essence, John is stuck. John has to wait for Sue to answer, before things can continue forward. In a fast-paced RP, this is perfectly fine, but how do you handle this in an RP that expects people to have long and detailed posts?

Thoughts

I'm stuck trying to figure out an answer to that. Describing the environment around you, or going off on your own, are a few suggestions I've come up with. They don't seem like a real answer though. Interacting with other players is a pivotal part of an RP. So how do you it while moving things along as well? Is it even possible?

*You don't have to give a definitive answer, even half-baked ideas are just as good. This is in the brainstorming section after all ^-^
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[Stickdom]

I have found quite a few ways to get around this. First of all, even in a fast-paced RP, there are ways to get around God-modding.


One example I used recently, is physically interacting with the other character. ending your post with something along the lines of 'John had something he wanted to show Sue, so he grabbed her hand and said "C'mon, I gotta show you something."' Right there, you have given John's character control over Sue's destination in a way that she can react without being controlled by another player. If she wants to go along, she can decide to post about what happens next, if not, she can use her post (or part of it) to pull her hand away and go in a different direction. This is a low-level example, you can get highly creative with posts like these to maneuver their characters around you, or vice versa, you around them, that still leaves them free to act on their own.


Another way is to leave a gap, such as 'John walked away from Sue to go stand at the railing of the bridge, saying, "Do you want to see what I found out about the town?"' This gap calls to be filled, so Sue has a choice to either follow or walk away, but the tendency is to follow, since there is an opening that the other player feels should be filled. It's rather psychological, but it tends to be pretty effective, depending on the scenario.


There are other ways, of course, and I'd be happy to continue on if this follows the line of your question

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

I think the problem is minimum posting lengths, really. It really interferes with natural-flow conversations, which basically forces every character to be a really irritating monologuer. The exact fix that would achieve what people try to do with word count minima and NOT impose the new problems that word count minima do varies from system to system, and from format to format. In freeform, no-GM arrangements, the best techniques are generally some variant of what Stickdom just said, and to use your posting to set up opportunities for the other players. Doing this without making them feel pressured into things requires not-insignificant social skills, mostly centered around raising narrative questions and leaving the answers up in the air. Even (especially) if that means leaving parts of your own character's reality open to outside contributions.

 

[White Masquerade]

@Shining Lotus Sage Okay. Natural flowing conversations > Minimum post length for sure. So tell me, if there is no minimum post length, how do you curb one-liners or short posts ---> which tend to evolve into 1x1 between characters and excluding everyone else?


@Stickdom Yes, continue on! It does follow the line of my question, just not all the way. John could turn around and look out over the town while beckoning Sue to come over and look, but still, nothing happened. John gave the interaction a direction to go in, but no movement. It's the movement part of the equation I'm stumped with :sweat:

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

It really sounds as though you're specifically talking about unmoderated freeform chats. I think they work far, far better over IRC than in a forum. There, the tendency toward short posting is in keeping with the affordances of the medium, and it's far easier to see at a glance what other pairs and triples are doing, because there's less screen real estate lost to framing the more granular content. The result you get is that larger groups tend to form smaller groups briefly, based on immediate ability and inclination to contribute to a particular event or topic. When something emerges that attracts someone from outside the smaller group, it's simple to just interject and merge into whatever thread catches your eye. So it works a lot like real conversations do when there are maybe 5-10 people involved.

 

[Stickdom]

Ah, now, you can't force a character to move, just like you can't will another human being to do what you want just because you want them to. It's all a trick of the writing, you really just have to put it in such a way that it makes them want to go in the direction you're leading them.


I also agree with Lotus on the fact that conversations can turn into monologues when there is a definite post limit (e.g. one paragraph min.), but for conversations, sometimes it's best to keep it long, but short at the same time. Put some thoughts out there, how does your character process what it is that they're hearing? Does John really just reply "I'm sorry" when Sue says that her dog just ran away from home? It doesn't always have to be a post filled with counting blades of grass, find meaningful things to put in there. if you're playing Sue and the player John just replies "I'm sorry", where do you go from there? It's by mixing conversation with action that you can get a response. If John doesn't care, '"I'm sorry," John said as he turned and walked away.' brings a lot more about, whereas '"I'm sorry,"John said as he put his arms around Sue and tried to comfort her.' elicits an entirely different response.


To sum up, there really is no definite way to control someone else's character, but you can use this to try to sway towards a certain end goal, just like people with motivations do in reality. I suggest just toying around with it, in varying types of RPs,

 

[White Masquerade]

@Shining Lotus Sage Okay. I got most of what you're saying. That type of short and rapid communication is what I'm trying to avoid. I might as well give you the big picture if it helps clear things up. An RP with 10 people, posts of medium length, following a story-line at moderate pace. When it comes to interactions between characters, I've noticed so far it goes one of two ways: the posts get shorter, or the story loses its pace. In scenario #1, the interaction between players is good! On the flip side however, posts begin getting shorter as a conversation ensues, leading to the thread getting taken over by posts from that one pair. This is one thing I'm trying to correct. And that would be by condensing their, say, 20 short posts each, into 6 medium-length posts each. <--- This would be impossible to do without god-modding. There's my problem. Is there any way to do it w/o god-modding?


What Happens During An Interaction Between Two People:


John got up off the chair, and walked over to Sue. "Hey, what would you like to do today?"





Seeing John walk over to her and asking what she'd like to do today, Sue replied, "I don't know. What would you like to do today?" She giggled quietly and waited for a response.





Sue was giggling at him. But why? Was there something on his face? "Okay. Okay. How about we go to the park? What do you think about that?"





"Ah. The park. But I hate the park! Cant't you think of something else?" she wailed, taking his hand.





Man! Sue was always like this. Whatever anyone suggested would get shot down immediately. "Okay. what about the pool?"





"The pool...next! You're not too good at this are you?"





"ARRGH! You know what? YOU stay home and I'll go somewhere!" John let go of Sue's hand and stormed out of the apartment.





Sue sighed as she watched John leave. 'I would have said yes to your next suggestion,' she mused.





This is wonderful interaction between two players. It took 4 short posts from each person to do it though. The whole thing probably would have eaten up a page of the thread maybe? That's not good. No one would want to scroll through 6 pages of this type of communication. If everything is condensed:


It'd look Like This:


John got up off the chair, and walked over to Sue. "Hey, what would you like to do today?" Seeing John walk over to her and asking what she'd like to do today, Sue replied, "I don't know. What would you like to do today?" She giggled quietly and waited for a response. Sue was giggling at him. But why? Was there something on his face? "Okay. Okay. How about we go to the park? What do you think about that?" "Ah. The park. But I hate the park! Cant't you think of something else?" she wailed, taking his hand. Man! Sue was always like this. Whatever anyone suggested would get shot down immediately. "Okay. what about the pool?" "The pool...next! You're not too good at this are you?" "ARRGH! You know what? YOU stay home and I'll go somewhere!" John let go of Sue's hand and stormed out of the apartment. Sue sighed as she watched John leave. 'I would have said yes to your next suggestion,' she mused.


^ THIS! Is beautiful! This is what I want! A wonderful meeting between the two in a compact post. That way, all the actions don't flood the thread, but a lot still happens. It was not just John doing different things, as he waits for Susan to act. Is this possible to do without God-modding?





@Stickdom My reply to you, was really half of my reply to Lotus but I'll reply specifically to what you said! What do you mean by keep it long and short at the same time? I whole-heartedly agree, to including the thought process of the character, and how they perceive what is going on. It definitely adds to the post! It's not quite the motivations I'm concerned with, just how to move along a story between two people, when one of them is not there. Still, I am now starting to see, maybe there really is no definite way to control another's actions without them being involved.

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

What you're looking for strikes me as the result of taking a chat conversation, or one arranged out-of-forum by both players, and just transcribing them into a forum post. I can't answer your question, really, because my advice is to change your goals to allow for natural conversations to cause periods of short posts that then return to longer descriptions when the scene becomes more action-oriented. This is much easier to do in a moderated game, because the moderator can drop interruptions into the mix by mutual agreement that that is the very role of the moderator. I think you may be trying to hammer nails with a screwdriver, I'm afraid.

 

[White Masquerade]

Ah okay. I understand. Well thank you for the help. I do think I have a clearer understanding of the mechanics now.

 

[Stickdom]

One of the things you seem to be looking for is shortening the amount of posts, rather than the length of the posts themselves. This is probably the most difficult, since it requires both people to have the same objective.


One thing I suggest to get the example of one post such as you suggested, simply PM the other person with a "Hey, I wanna put up a conversation message, let's have it here in the pm so I can post the whole convo instead of us exchanging one liners". It's still exchanging a conversation, but you both decide on the person to post an entire conversation (or portions of it and take turns with considerably less posts), and you can roleplayyoir character responding to their response. 'John asked Sue what she would like to do this weekend. Her emphatic response of "I'm going to the pool," surprised him. He thought she hated swimming. "The pool, huh? But you'll get all wet," he teased her.'


You can differentiate this through spacing or coloring to make it clear who is saying which line, but this is a method that has worked before (in my experience). The only other alternative I can think of is to space out your posting by letting other players respond in between pieces of your conversation. This may the slowest way to go, seeing as you are now relying on a third party to space it out with completely unrelated content, but this also gives outside forces the opportunity to influence your conversation as well. John and Sue probably aren't going want to continue talking about their weekend plans if Stuart drives up next to their pleasant evening walk and starts throwing rocks at them.


So, it really depends on your RP and your partners, I fully understand that some of the other players need a good hand-grab and to be dragged around for them to do anything useful, but these players will always be around, as everyone has varying levels of writing and character development skills. As long as you are progressing forward in an RP, and at least have a general direction your character is headed from their personal point of view, you may or may not have other players who follow along on their own, or better yet, make their own path next to (or maybe away from) yours for you to play off of.

 

[White Masquerade]

@Stickdom :five:. You may be just a stick, but a lovely one at that. Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I don't want to mess with anything that naturally occurs, just eliminate any of its nasty side effects. As for pm'ing, that is a great idea that I've considered. It is an option that I would go to, if all else fails. The reason I don't prefer it, is because I'd rather take on more work, than giving it to a participating Rper. Alienating as few people as possible, while being as accommodating as possible, are my main goals. Also, another issue would be posters can't see what the two Pmers are up to, so wires may end up getting crossed.


Example:


Two Pmers have a conversation and action scene about rescuing a cat from being stuck in a pipe. The 3rd poster sees the cat stuck in a pipe, and works on a solution, but has no idea, two other PMers are also working on getting the same cat out of there.


As for you alternative. That is good as well! To me, it actually seems the be the current state of affairs with a few RPs. Yes it's a bit slow, but it keeps the story dynamic. Really, the only problem I see with it is its speed. ^-^ I'll try that method out to see how it goes. Thank you! In regards to the last paragraph, I agree with you're saying for sure. All characters won't follow the same path...but that's okay. Side stories and different paths would be welcome spice to the world. I wouldn't want to stifle any creativity or ideas the individual Rpers may have.


@Shining Lotus Sage & Stickdom


Building off what Lotus said previously, what do you think about taking the concept of Transcribing, one step further? It seems like it has excellent potential, especially in solving this problem in particular. A basic skeleton of my thoughts would be:


1. Moving the "In-Person Roleplay" to ---------> the OOC Thread.


2. Moving the "OOC Thread" to the Character Sign-up page. (The first post in the Character sign-up, will be an example of how the skelly should go; but everything afterwards would be OOC related).


3. Character sign-ups would pmed directly to the GM. (Half-baked; not sure yet how others will see the submitted character)


4. The OOC thread will be sort of like a rough draft of the Role-Play. Things will be able to flow naturally, but it's not "official" until the GM transcribes it all into the Real "In-Person Rolepay" Thread. If a long post checks out, it's immediately transferred over. If there are a bunch of shorter conversations, the GM will mush it all together, then transcribe it over to the main RP thread. The GM would also have the option of even combining posts, before putting it in the official thread.


Example of OOC Thread Role-Play:


John wanted to hold Sue's hand as they walked, so he asked, "Can I hold your hand?"


Upon hearing his question Sue blushed replying, "are you sure you want to hold my hand? I have really long nails. You might get poked."


Stuart was joy-riding through the town, bag of rocks firmly in hand, throwing the scraggly pebbles at anything that moved. First he got a lone lady holding a few grocery bags, on her way home from the market. Next he came up on a couple taking an evening stroll, making out while they walked. One well placed shot the neck of the man, earned him the gentleman's ire, but Stuart was way off into the sunset before any harm could come. 'Unbelievably fun' was his thought. He was going to make this a weekly tradition.


Janet was inside her home at this time, perusing through one of her favorite novels: The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe. "Amazing." she whispered, turning the page. "I wonder what Lucy is going to do next!"

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All Of It Transcribed Into "Official: Role-Play:


John wanted to hold Sue's hand as they walked, so he asked, "Can I hold your hand?" Upon hearing his question Sue blushed replying, "are you sure you want to hold my hand? I have really long nails. You might get poked." On the other side of town, Stuart was joy-riding through the town, bag of rocks firmly in hand, throwing the scraggly pebbles at anything that moved.


First, he got a lone lady holding a few grocery bags, on her way home from the market. Next, he came up on a couple taking an evening stroll, making out while they walked. One well placed shot the neck of the man, earned him the gentleman's ire, but Stuart was way off into the sunset before any harm could come. 'Unbelievably fun' was his thought. He was going to make this a weekly tradition.


Janet was inside her home at this time, perusing through one of her favorite novels: The Lion, The Witch, And The Wardrobe. "Amazing," she whispered, turning the page. "I wonder what Lucy is going to do next!"

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This way, at least to me, you can have your long and detailed posts/story moving (In the main thread), without foregoing or stifling the natural flow of how people interact. People who want to know what's going on, but don't want to flip through 20 pages of one conversation, can look at the "Official" thread, while real-time conversations and current happenings can still be viewed in the "Draft" OOC Thread. Yes, it is definitely a LOT more work on the GM. I already see the GM has to be committed to a lot of reading and relatively fast. They probably won't even have a chance to participate in the RP. With aside, do you think this can work? Thoughts?

 

[Stickdom]

Well, I see what you're saying there, but when you focus more on shortening the amount of posts, you lose player's interest, because if one person is posting what they actually said for them, it's like it's not even them, it's not fun anymore. To be honest, I personally have no problem with multiple multiple small posts taking up pages, we have infinite pages to use online and it may be a hassle to read through several smaller posts to get to anything 'exciting,' but if you remove the player from their writing and appear to just be using them to bolster another's post so it "saves space", you're going to lose interest rather quickly. What you're basically planning to do (so it sounds) is to play editor to all of your player's posts and combine them all together into larger and more comprehensive posts, but when you place it upon yourself to put the posts together for someone else, you are apt to get some "hate-mail" for it when you leave out a piece that wasn't important to you, but may have been a key character detail to them. I've had a few times where I've chosen my words very carefully in order to get around some roleplay attack or conversational stumbling block, and I know that I personally wouldn't want someone else to ruin a plot device I had for my character simply because it "flowed better" with someone else's post before or after mine.


I like the idea of moving to the OOC, but consider what happens when you let something like John and Sue planning the get the cat unstuck from out of a pipe and someone else comes along and does it for them, now you've introduced another option: John and Sue were prepared to do it, but they weren't fast enough to beat someone else. This may be an inconvenience to rewrite a portion of a post in order to reword it so that they merely attempt to save the cat, not actually do it, but now you've added a while other dimension of character interaction. Are they simply relieved that the cat was saved, or would it have been better for them if they had been the ones to do it? Are they now jealous of whoever saved the cat? This line of reasoning leaves you with more ways for characters to interact, which is really the point of a roleplay, not to have a tidy and neat story by the end of it.


I once played through a roleplay where literally every one of its 200-some pages was all one-liner conversation with a few descriptions of location and objects when needed. Granted, it was a low-level fantasy style, it wasn't requiring much, but I'll tell you what it was: it was high-speed, since the posts were quick and easy to write, and it was fun, because you could jump into literally any conversation or scenario at any given second.


If you do decide to move the roleplay segments into the OOC, I would suggest leaving the original OOC there as well, so that players could comment directly on someone else's piece. If you attach too many moving pieces (this has been moved here, while what used to be here has moved there, etc.) you'll confuse more inexperienced RPers who don't know what they're doing and you'll most likely lose several of your more experienced RPers because "that's not the way I've always done it/seen it done." So it really is a give and take scenario either way, some change is good, if every roleplay was the same, there would be only one, but at the same time, keeping it familiar in setting and mechanics will draw better talent to what they know they are comfortable playing.


EDIT: I reread your post and realized that I may have been saying exactly what you were saying, just differently, at least in some areas, my apologies xD

 

[White Masquerade]

I totally get the part where you said when Rpers might be offended if I re-post their posts. I won't change their post though, just mash it all together. <---Is this one the things we were saying differently? xD Now YOU'RE the one leaving ME confused! Are we agreeing??


The bit about losing RPer's that are used to doing things in a familiar way; I'm not too stressed over that =P. I like experimenting and trying new things out.

 

[Stickdom]

Yeah, I think so *now can't remember what portion of it was the same, may be fooling himself* xD


I was just saying that you gotta be cautious when you try to GM or moderate an RP too much, since you can over-control it to death (which I have done in the past and regretted it.) I think you'll do ok, as long as you make it clear to your players how everything is going down, the worst thing that can happen to you is having players posting up stuff because they don't understand whatever post-order system you have in place, and then wondering why you're asking them to squish their post in with someone else's

 

[White Masquerade]

@Stickdom


Thank you Stick! This Brainstorm forum really is useful! I think I have a good idea of what I plan to do now. When I say this really helped; this really helped. I owe you one.

 

[Stickdom]

Yeap :3 just glad to help out...


That'll be $89.55, thank you, come again xD

 

[Strude]

@Shining Lotus Sage Okay. Natural flowing conversations > Minimum post length for sure. So tell me, if there is no minimum post length, how do you curb one-liners or short posts ---> which tend to evolve into 1x1 between characters and excluding everyone else?

I noticed this question while reading the replies and my quickest answer is basic no one/one rule. Not a post order, but a rule that simply states something along the lines of "allow everyone a chance to post". Enforcing the no one on one issue, and also allowing everyone a chance to contribute before anyone can fly ahead of the group. Not perfect, but it works well enough for me.


Even in situations where the characters are physically apart. Say two character in one room and two more in another room. Physically their location in-game is different and logically they would be progressing at their own pace. However, the rule still works it just helps maintain a linear progression. No one set of characters ever gets the chance to progress further than any other group and still allows everyone the chance to have a natural exchange of dialog.


This doesn't answer the initial question of the thread. Hope you don't mind.

 

[White Masquerade]

@Strude


No, no. It's perfectly fine! Your comments are welcome. I see what you're saying, but that course of action would only work, if most of the posters were speedy, or if most of the posters were slow. That question was meant for an RP that has a mix of both. Two quick posters trying to have a conversation, then being told they'd have to wait for another RPer that posts only twice a week? That would not be good! :cross:


I'm really trying to see if there's a way to cater to both parties.

 

[White Masquerade]

[QUOTE="King of Biscayne]You know, writing pads go a long way if you want to collab on one big post. That's usually my style, if I'm running the show.

[/QUOTE]
Hey! I'm by Biscayne Blvd myself xD ! Miami is 5 STARS :five:


About the notepad thing...lol. I don't think that would work with this. But I don't think I get what you mean, do you want to explain more?

 

[White Masquerade]

[QUOTE="King of Biscayne]I don't actually live in Miami, I confess. I'm just an obsessive Heat fan
Anyways, I use a site called Piratepad. It's a writing pad that's public, so multiple people can write at the same time. I use it to collaborate when writing large posts with several writers.

[/QUOTE]
Aww. Don't get me started on the Hat -.-


As for the PiratePad, thank you for the info! I thought you meant you actually used a pen and notepad.. O.o PiratePad would definitely be good to collab with a few others, but with this I'm trying to find a way to collab with like, 10 people, who are all on at different times and on different days. It's madness. I've come up with letting things unfold, and putting all together after the fact. Maybe even on a whole nother. Just want things to be neat and tidy.

 

[Shining Lotus Sage]

Pretend you're writing the Dragonlance novels and just make it pretty after the fact?

 

[White Masquerade]

@Shining Lotus Sage


LOL. Shining. I just looked that up and...-.- I hope it doesn't have to come to that.

 

[Elle Joyner]

I guess what I look at is that it is, in essence... role playing. It's very different from, say, a cooperative writing piece. When I co-write a book with someone, I usually suggest that we first outline the entire plot, then each take a certain amount of chapters, write from every character involved, then when I have the other person's pieces, I go through and format/edit so that everything flows together under the same voice. Why? Because when we go to get the book published if it looks like it's written non-cohesively by two people, it's never going to hit the shelves


But... RPing is a different beast, all together. It's multiple people, working in the same storyline but each person is responsible only for their character. Hence... role playing. Playing a role.


It isn't going to have the same flow as a book, because there's, for lack of better term, too many cooks in the kitchen. And as was previously mentioned... collaborating is great, but in an RP, it kind of takes away the spontaneity and creativity. Every once in a while it's fine, but if an entire RP is written that way, unless it's a 1x1, it can lose interest, real quick. Quite frankly, if I go to all the trouble of making a good character, I want to play that character out to the fullest and I can't do that if I'm always having to collaborate with someone else. Yes... you have a cohesive, connected piece and there's gonna be plenty of action/reaction... but you lose introspection... you lose that inner dialogue that can make RPing so intriguing.


That said... I DO think people on RPing sites in general have a slightly skewed idea of what "godmoding" is. If my character takes your character by the hand, that is not godmoding... that is something that could happen in reality. If I then, however, went on to suggest that your character felt warm and fuzzy about holding my character's hand, THAT would be godmoding. If my character sucker punched your character in the nose, that would not be godmoding... that is something that could happen in reality. If I suggested that punch propelled bone fragments into your character's brain and killed them... THAT would be godmoding. The difference is controlling your own charater's actions, versus controlling the REactions of the other character. 
You could also look at it this way... Multiple perspectives on the same scene. xD Sort of like that horrible Matthew Fox Vantage Point movie!

 

[White Masquerade]

@Elle Joyner


WHAT! You didn't like Vantage Point?! But, I get what you're saying. It looks like, I'll probably be better off, just letting the Role-Play develop like normal on the regular thread; and then for myself or anyone else who interested, make a secondary thread/role-play that puts it all together. That way, we'd all be happy right? Can have our cakes and eat them too :bigsmile:

 

[Elle Joyner]

xD I hated it! I wanted to like it so badly, but it was just so much nothing, happening over and over again xD


If you want a prime example of how to avoid the whole ongoing monologue thing without having to collaborate, Dreesirk handled it beautifully in my Utopia thread, by copying/pasting what I had written (Dialogue wise) in the previous post and posting his character reaction to it afterwards.


For example (in case you don't feel like hunting down the suggested example xD ): If I wrote...


Susan couldn't believe the audacity behind Mary's suggestion, and felt her defenses rising with each word out of the cheerleader's mouth. Stupid? Arrogant? Ugly? Who did Mary think she was?


"How dare you!" Susan yelled, "What sort of person says something like that?"


She was angry, and she had had enough. If there had been any hope for a peaceful closure to their former friendship, it had all but been obliterated by Mary's insensitivity, "You wanna take this outside!?" She finally asked, his hands balling into fists.


Then the following post could read:


"What sort of person says something like that?" Susan shrieked, and Mary was thrilled to see cracks forming in the girl's armor as her shoulders tensed, her jaw tightening.


"This sort of person." She retorted, pointing her thumbs at her chest, "And don't pretend you didn't see it coming. You just don't like it, because it's directed at you!"


The words were cold, but Mary couldn't bring herself to care. Susan had taken things too far and it was time someone put her in her place.


"You wanna take this outside?" Came Susan's response, and Mary smirked, her own knuckles knotting tightly.


"Why wait?" And with all the graciousness of a heavy-weight boxer, she plowed a right hook into the bridge of Susan's nose.