Martial Arts questions

[Aasharu]

So, as I may have mentioned, I own many of the Exalted books, but have never actually gotten to play the game, so some parts still confuse me. In this case, I'm confused about some of the limitations of Martial Arts charms.


Now, specifically, I'm confused on the style weapons limitation. Does that mean that, if you're wielding a weapon that isn't a style allowed weapon, you can't use any of the charms of the style? I don't think that's correct, but I figure I'd ask anyways. For a (broken) example, if I were to be wielding a daiklave, and have mastered Dark Messiah style, would I be able to activate Void Avatar Prana, (again, leaving aside how broken that charm is.) What limitations does the style weapon rule impose?

 

[HowlingCoyote]

Martial Arts are unarmed styles, to which some weapons may be added if they are form weapons. Likewise, most styles don't permit all types of armor either, or even any armor at all depending on the style. Free use of weapons with Charms falls under Melee.


Edit: or Archery, or Thrown.

 

[Gylthinel]

To more directly answer your question. If you're holding a Daiklave and using a MA style that doesn't allow daiklaves, you cannot use it's charms. Not even form type. You could put the daiklave down, do the charm, then pick it back up. Hopefully, you'd pick it up fast enough to deflect the bombardment of insults your fellows would certainly throw for such munchkinnery.

 

[Dracogryff]

You also can't roll martial arts to attack with a non Martial Arts weapon (like a Daiklaive) unless you know Charms in a style that has said weapon as a Form Weapon.


And what the others have said. Personally, I'd rule that you can't keep a Form Charm up if you're wielding a weapon that isn't part of it...it'd drop as soon as you do so, since you can't keep the proper movements for maintaining the form with the foreign weapon, but that's me and I don't think it's actually ruled on anywhere that you can't pick one up after using such...

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

The thing I always run into is using a form charm and, say, attacking with sorcery or the like, and how that should interact. I've never had it come up in game, since most people avoid combat sorcery like the plague, and those few that don't are rarely the Martial Artist Sorcerors. Still...I doubt Death of Obsidian Butterflies is a form weapon for Solar Hero Style. More directly, things like Elemental Bolt and the like potentially raise questions that are more likely to actually come up.

 

[Kyeudo]

Odd. I've always played under the idea that you can use Martial Arts Charms no matter what weapon you're holding, as long as you are not using the Charm to affect an attack made with a non-form weapon.


This reminds me of a question I've had. Mantis Style allows any Martial Arts weapon as a form weapon. Suppose I have learned both Mantis Style and Violet Bier of Sorrows, which has swords as a form weapon. I can now wield swords using Martial Arts, so does this make swords a form weapon for Mantis Style?

 

[Chaka]

Nah, I'd confine it to weapons with the M-tag.

 

[Persell]

As long as the charm doesn't affect the attack, then you can wield any weapon you want.

 

[wordman]

It would be nice if Exalted books were set up as follows (they totally aren't set up this way, but it would be nice):


Using a form weapon means that martial arts attacks with that weapon "are considered unarmed attacks".


Martial arts charms made reference to "unarmed attacks", using it as a shorthand for "attacks without weapons or with the form weapons for this style".


In other words, when the books mention that form weapons attacks are "treated as unarmed attacks" as if this was something very important, you might expect that the rest of the books' text would call attention to the notion of "unarmed attacks" using a similar importance. But, they don't really. No idea why. After they fucked this up so badly in 1E, you'd think they'd have learned by 2E, but they seem to have made it even worse (although Snake Style in the 2E core book was better in this regard).


So, in answer to the original question: no one really knows for sure how form weapons are supposed to work (or armor, for that matter). Nearly everyone has some interpretation of what the books say. Most of these are probably close. You'll probably find some people that are positive that their interpretation is the only possible correct answer. But, the rules simply aren't written well enough to say for sure.


About the best you can hope for is to decide on some rational approach for your own game.


The responses above provide the general gist of the idea. Things only really fall down when, say, you start using multiple styles at the same time, start mixing MA and Melee actions, or start using MA charms that don't enhance attacks or defense ("Can I activate Distracting Finger Gesture while holding this giant battle axe?").


In my 1E game, it works like this. This is far from the only interpretation.

 

[Gylthinel]

Personally, I'd rule that you can't keep a Form Charm up if you're wielding a weapon that isn't part of it...it'd drop as soon as you do so, since you can't keep the proper movements for maintaining the form with the foreign weapon, but that's me and I don't think it's actually ruled on anywhere that you can't pick one up after using such...

I rather like this interpretation, as it emphasizes the style of martial arts, and Exalted is nothing if not a smattering of style.


An illustration of this is the duel in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, when the heroin girl (Michelle Y) uses like 10 different weapons. She uses each one differently. That'd be a different form for each weapon, I guess.

 

[Chaka]

To summarise:


The most likely (by my reading and in my experience) intent as regards form weapons is:


(a) You cannot activate the charms of a style that doesn't allow a class of armour in that armour. Permanent Charms, being Permanent, are an exception to this, and all the other rules that follow.


(b) You must make attacks enhanced by charms from that martial art either unarmed or using the form weapons.


© You can probably use charms that don't enhance attacks whilst wielding weapons that aren't form weapons.


(d) You cannot activate or maintain the Form charm unless you are fighting unarmed or using a form weapon, as per point b.


Even if this isn't exactly how it's meant to work, it seems like the most balanced way to do it.

 

[Tsuranis]

Ok, I have a Martial Arts question of my own here and don't really see the need to create a new thread. What limitations are there on comboing melee and martial arts charms together? The core book would suggest that it would be illegal, as MA charms can only supplement MA attacks and melee charms only melee attacks. However the flavour in other books seems to contradict this. (For example, "some dojos also work hard on melee charms and encourage students to use them in combos with traditional Even Blade Charms").


Something else to note is that the cook book states that "some reflexive charms are supplemental in nature", which suggests that the same limitations would apply to them as supplemental charms. How do you guys run this?

 

[Quchu]

Reflexive Charms are free to be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. Supplemental Charms can usually be comboed only with Charms from the same Ability, but certain Supplementals (like... that thing from Solar Athletics) can be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. If this is the case, it's specifically said so in the description. Reflexive Charms can supplement actions specifically like Supplementals, but rules-wise, they are not under restrictions of Supplemental Charms if the type is Reflexive.


Now for someone to correct me in... 3... 2...

 

[Tsuranis]

Reflexive Charms are free to be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. Supplemental Charms can usually be comboed only with Charms from the same Ability, but certain Supplementals (like... that thing from Solar Athletics) can be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. If this is the case, it's specifically said so in the description. Reflexive Charms can supplement actions specifically like Supplementals, but rules-wise, they are not under restrictions of Supplemental Charms if the type is Reflexive.
Now for someone to correct me in... 3... 2...

This is the approach I've been going with myself, but it seemed to be worth checking it.

 

[terrormortus]

Reflexive Charms are free to be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. Supplemental Charms can usually be comboed only with Charms from the same Ability, but certain Supplementals (like... that thing from Solar Athletics) can be comboed with Charms of other Abilities. If this is the case, it's specifically said so in the description. Reflexive Charms can supplement actions specifically like Supplementals, but rules-wise, they are not under restrictions of Supplemental Charms if the type is Reflexive.
Now for someone to correct me in... 3... 2...

I think that in the errata (I may be wrong) that weapons with the M tag can use combos that combine melee and martial arts charms, which makes sense. Form weapons for a martial arts style I have no idea.

 

[Greenstalker]

Ok, I have a Martial Arts question of my own here and don't really see the need to create a new thread. What limitations are there on comboing melee and martial arts charms together? The core book would suggest that it would be illegal, as MA charms can only supplement MA attacks and melee charms only melee attacks. However the flavour in other books seems to contradict this. (For example, "some dojos also work hard on melee charms and encourage students to use them in combos with traditional Even Blade Charms").
Something else to note is that the cook book states that "some reflexive charms are supplemental in nature", which suggests that the same limitations would apply to them as supplemental charms. How do you guys run this?

Here is the link for errata answer.