Lunar MA- Mutation of the Perfected Lotus?

[Jukashi]

Me, I like Martial Arts. I've submitted two, and have ideas for four more floating around in my brain, two of which are almost fully developed (I only need write some good description, which for these particular two is challenging).


I also like Lunars.


You probably guessed that already.


Unfortunately, the two don't combine all that well- Lunars can't combo MA charms with their other charms, and have to pay full costs for the charms even if they favour MA. This makes sense, really, so I'm not complaining; Lunars focus on attributes, not abilities, and how can a martial art with training for kicks and punches still be useful when you're a shark?


It still seems a little odd to me, however. Several Styles include charms that change the user's shape, but Lunars- who are supposed to be the masters of form- still face the same difficulty. It's not much difficulty, yes, but it's still there.


So what if Lunars had their own martial arts, I thought? Ones that focus on shapeshifting? But wait, other things besides Lunars shapeshift.


Why not make a whole new kind of Martial Arts?


I looked at the three stages of Martial Arts. In Terrestrial, you learn to use Essence in simple ways. In Celestial, you use Essence to affect the world around you. Sidereal MA is right out there for Lunars, so we'll ignore that.


How about, instead of progressing in their control of Essence, Lunars could advance in controlling their bodies with Essence instead- refining the control over their own body that Terrestrial Martial Arts is based on, so that full-on shapeshifting becomes incorporated into the practise?


I have a few basic ideas about it. It would be based on "body" concepts- power, speed, senses, toughness and so on. Each style would focus on a set of attributes (the chamrs would be attribute-based), and be designed for a certain body type- humanoid, avian, etc.. The styles'd be between Terrestrial and Celestial in power, and non-Lunars could be initiated by learning a set number and type of shapeshifting Spirit or Lunar charms; so it'd also be available to god-bloods, demon-bloods and Lunar Half-Caste, and Eclipse and Moonshadow Solars as well. I also thought that, since it focuses on body control rather than essence control, the kind of essence you have doesn't matter so long as you can shapeshift somehow, so maybe Dragon Kings with Shaping Wood could learn too. (Wheee!)


I've got ideas for some styles already. It's a big addition to the setting, though. What do you think?

 

[Forn Clakes]

My main question is why would a Lunar wish to take time to develop a style of martial arts that when that time could be put to better use elsewhere?  


I'm not criticizing or want to raise any heckles, and personally I don't have enough experience with Lunars to actually make many comments on the subject, but whenever I hear an idea about Lunars and MA, I must always ask, why?


~FC.

 

[wordman]

Some time ago, I posted this comment to the wiki, suggesting...


...a celestial martial art geared towards shapeshifting (meaning it is largely for lunars, and may require lunar charms as prereqs). In particular, the idea is to master shapechanging while attacking/defending, doing things like instantly coating your arm in plates, then springing out tentacles to grab the attacking weapon, or reversing the direction of your joints during a clinch. In other words, use shapeshifting in a more refined and subtle way than the typical brutality of lunar combat charms. To get the control needed, the practicioner must be in human form, but the pinnacle charm of the tree allows the form to be used in deadly beastman form.


No one, including me, did anything with the suggestion, but it sounds a bit like what you are getting at. I think the key ideais the idea of using shapeshifting in a "refined and subtle" way, as that what makes it a martial art, rather than a collection of new unarmed combat charms.

 

[Fruan]

My main question is why would a Lunar wish to take time to develop a style of martial arts that when that time could be put to better use elsewhere?  

Well, what if the Luna in question was a hard ass martial artist before they exalted (by mortal standards, of course.) What if they like martial arts?


Just because something isn't mechanically the most advantageous thing to do doesn't mean everyone will avoid it.


Of course, I still think Luna MA styles are a bad idea.

 

[Jukashi]

My main question is why would a Lunar wish to take time to develop a style of martial arts that when that time could be put to better use elsewhere?

Well, in the First Age, rivalry with Solars could have easily led to a specialised Lunar off-shoot of typical martial arts ("Anything you can do, I can do better... by shapeshifting"). Then, once it was created, it'd be passed on because it's useful.


Why would it be useful? Greater specialisation. Lunars can normally learn charms to make themselves faster, and then they could learn an MA based entirely around being fast so that they're even more speedy. Same with muscle strength or alertness. Or, maybe, they want to be more formal in how they fight in Beastman or animal form, and so learn a style based around fighting in the air or underwater. Or, maybe, they want to focus further into shapeshifting than even before, doing combat stuff that's too precise or complicated to be part of the normal set, like splitting into copies of themselves, merging your hand into another person to crush their heart, or even just subsuming your innards into generic flesh-like stuff, with no vulnerable blood or internal organs.


Basically... martial arts, but the kind of martial arts only someone who can change shape would be able to do.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

You guys ever read any of those Kailindo techniques in World of Darkness: Combat?  Some of them were genius, such as the one where you started off in human form and when your enemy took a swing at you, you instantly shifted to Crinos to take advantage of its soak bonuses, then counterattacked in the resulting moment of surprise.  There were others.


Also: I FUCKING HATE CLINCHES. Yes, this is going somewhere.  I was thinking about how you'd have to be bad as fuck to ever clinch a Lunar, 'cause even if you grab them and have superior Strength, at any moment they can be like, "Surprise! I'm a ferret.  You ain't clinching shit."  I bring this up as an example of some fo the unique advantages Lunars have in close combat due to their shapeshifting abilites.


The problem you're going to run into, building a Lunar-only MA tree is: duplicating existing Charms.  Body-enhancement's covered, as are a number of other close-combat abilities...


Keep in mind, too, that Lunars are tricksters, as well, not just combat monsters.  They flow, misdirect, and entrap (see memesis's Scorpion's Relentless Sting Combo), not just "I flex muscles and is 18 Strength to win!"  They're unpredictable, brutal, and indomitable, not merely tanked-out.  Think of the difference between fighters and barbarians in D&D, I guess...

 

[Flagg]

Also: I FUCKING HATE CLINCHES.

Do you "FUCKING HATE CLINCHES" in the sense that they're unpleasant to be in, or do you dislike them as a game mechanic?


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Both.  I think it's a bitch-ass way to fight - like a fat man suffocating you with his vast unholy bulk, rather than TRYING, such as by striking, parrying, etc.


I dunno, once you're in a clinch, if your opponent's stronger, you're FUCKED.  You can't DO anything.  For Exalted, I find that a massively inappropriate approach to combat.  This is anime shit, wuxia shit - all about the pageantry of swordplay and the insane techniques of rival martial arts schools.  Clinching seems like a lawyer's trick, a cheap & cheesy way to avoid effort...


Also, I'm wicked opinionated & often irrational.

 

[Jakk Bey]

While a Celestial based Martial Art wouldn't be thematically objectional, and it's been brought up that Lunars are more efficient in their own Charms than with Martial Arts, and thus taking the time to create a Lunar Only MA is a bit redundant from an XP statndpoint, I can see the ancient ones creating a martial art for the young ones as an exercise in control.


And I can see a very old Lunar coming up with an art for his bestest of Beastmen childer who had the talent for doing odd things with their bodies.  


I personally don't like the idea of Lunars wasting time with Martial Arts.  Their own native Charms are more powerful and versatile, and with the XP costs for Lunars, they need to focus more than other Exalts.  But those are purely mechanics and mechanics have little poetry, so mine are but OOC justifications for keeping the hell away from this.  


I can see a Lunar developing a Celestial Art, but to progress further in Martial Arts, I can't see that, because the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus requires an understanding of not only one's self, but also your place not just in the Creation, but in the All.  And Lunars are pretty stictly rooted, and it comes down to their shapechanging.  They are rooted to the body, which is a great thematic reason to bar them from learning Sidereal Arts, they just can't get past the body hump.  It's what they are, it's what they do, and to get them to make the leap past that...would mean they would have to abandon their very existance.   Much like the Gods are rooted in their places, and their purposes, which bars them from learning the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus as well.  And the Terrestrials who are completely rooted to their place in the Creation.  At least the Lunars are in good company in their level of understanding.


I've got a few Lunar based Martial Arts kicking around--I did them before TSJ made me realize that thematically it was inappropriate--and I based one on Kalindo style Charms, and another purely on raw power and savagery, harnessing the beast natures of the Lunars.  Have at it though.  I would reserve them for the eldest of Lunars, because while the First Age Lunars have had  lot of time to develop their skills, I think that even the elders would stress that the younger Lunars concentrate on developing themselves first, before taking the plunge into Martial Arts--know yourself and your capabilities before you go mucking around with the high concept stuff--because the XP sink of Martial Arts can really hobble a PC Lunar when compared to the other Exalts, or even other Lunars in a party.

 

[Jakk Bey]

HO--Again, is this in games or in RL--because I don't recall there being any rules in a real fight about being fair.


In game...it's still not about fair.  No trick, just a technique and an approach. You just have to come up with a better approach.  


Now though, I envision an Exalt being overborn and clinched while the Simpson's HA-HA! kid is pointing...

 

[Hanat-Osul]

I'm just saying I don't like the flavor of a clinch.  I would be foolish to say some shit like, "That's UN-FAIR..!"  (obviously not a concern of ours).   I merely object to it on aesthetic grounds.  Far more interesting to visualize a blindingly fast back-and-forth dance of men with knifelike hands trying to punch the shit out of each other, than to watch them choke each other to death.  To my mind, at least.

 

[Flagg]

I'm fairly liberal about the clinch rules. By the book, you literally cannot do ANYTHING other than inflict damage, or try to break out. This is incredibly tedious and boring. It also doesn't really make sense.


A clinchee with a knife in his hand should be able to do some stabbing. Likewise, an Exalt in a clinch should be able to activate pretty much any Charm that isn't hindered by being physically grappled. A clinched Lunar could, as previously mentioned, escape a clinch with EASE by shapeshifting. I allow people in a clinchg to do anything that makes sense -- anything they should be able to do.


With a little flexibility, I do like clinch rules. They allow a slower opponent to have a fighting chance against dodge-monkeys. Picture Marv vs. Kevin in Sin City.


"I got you now, ya little bastard. Let's see you hop around now."


-S

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Hm.  Yeah.  Good point.

 

[Jukashi]

I personally don't like the idea of Lunars wasting time with Martial Arts.  Their own native Charms are more powerful and versatile' date=' and with the XP costs for Lunars, they need to focus more than other Exalts.  But those are purely mechanics and mechanics have little poetry, so mine are but OOC justifications for keeping the hell away from this.[/quote']
These ones wouldn't have those difficulties. That's kinda the point.

I can see a Lunar developing a Celestial Art' date=' but to progress further in Martial Arts, I can't see that, because the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus requires an understanding of not only one's self, but also your place not just in the Creation, but in the All.[/quote']
Hey, now. I didn't say anything about The Blossoming of the Perfect Lotus. What I'm suggesting is an entirely new stage in the Perfected Lotus- the "Mutation" stage, as it's enemies might call it. As I said, it's between Terrestrial and Celestial in Power level. If you think of the Path as a three-step line, this would branch off to the side at about 1.5. After terrestrial, but before Celestial. Sidereal MA have nothing to do with it.

And Lunars are pretty stictly rooted' date=' and it comes down to their shapechanging.  They are rooted to the body, which is a great thematic reason to bar them from learning Sidereal Arts, they just can't get past the body hump.  It's what they are, it's what they do, and to get them to make the leap past that...would mean they would have to abandon their very existance.   Much like the Gods are rooted in their places, and their purposes, which bars them from learning the Blossoming of the Perfected Lotus as well.  And the Terrestrials who are completely rooted to their place in the Creation.  At least the Lunars are in good company in their level of understanding.[/quote']
Not a problem. The Mutation of the Perfected Lotus, as I said, is as much based in the body as its Lunar creators are. That's why I suggested it be weaker then Celestial-level; it is basically a refinement of Terrestrial Martial Arts, channeling essence through the body to create its charms rather than the direct route taken by the higher levels.

I've got a few Lunar based Martial Arts kicking around--I did them before TSJ made me realize that thematically it was inappropriate--and I based one on Kalindo style Charms' date=' and another purely on raw power and savagery, harnessing the beast natures of the Lunars.  Have at it though.  I would reserve them for the eldest of Lunars, because while the First Age Lunars have had  lot of time to develop their skills, I think that even the elders would stress that the younger Lunars concentrate on developing themselves first, before taking the plunge into Martial Arts--know yourself and your capabilities before you go mucking around with the high concept stuff--because the XP sink of Martial Arts can really hobble a PC Lunar when compared to the other Exalts, or even other Lunars in a party.[/quote']
Yet again... what I'm suggesting is a new kind of Martial Arts, limited to shapeshifters; therefore being more in tune with Lunars, created by them, and, especially, far easier for them to learn.


Now, as for duplicating existing charms... yes, that is a problem, but not so large a one. Indeed, its almost built in; take a Lunar charm, and refine it into a selection of charms that do much more but on the same basic principles, and there you have a Mutated Lotus style. And then let other shapeshifters learn it, too, if they've been initiated.


I was thinking of a "freedom" theme for the Mutation of the Perfected Lotus; freedom from the limits of a set form, realisation of the endless things you can do with your body and the fulfillment of those possibilities (Increasing its unpopularity by linking it to the Wyld? Hmm...). Changing yourself to move freely through the world, rather than forcing the world out of your way. I should write a Sutra...

 

[Hanat-Osul]

While I'm all about you writing a sutra, Jukashi, keep Celestial Monkey Style in mind when you puruse your "freedom" theme.  That and Water Dragon...

 

[Jukashi]

Do they have sutras? Walking in the Footsteps of Ten Thousand Things is referenced in the Bulb Sutra, but I haven't seen any others. I don't have the sidereals book, more's the pity.


As for the freedom thing, it's more figurative than literal- The sutra's for "Lunar" MA initiation, like the other Prfected Lotus sutras from the PG, not a sutra for a particular style.


I'm not sure what you mean by your caution, in summary.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Water Dragon has a literal "freedom" effect - shrugging off ropes, chains, other bonds.  Celestial Monkey gives you freedom, too: freedom from Virtue checks, freedom to wear whatever armor you want, use whatever weapon you feel like.  I was saying: if freedom's your theme, be careful not to duplicate existing styles' powers.


But if you don't intend it as a literal thing, I suppose you can disregard that particular caveat...


Comrade, I've seen your rebuttals to the following critique, but I just don't think they hold water:


-What could a Lunar-only, shapeshifting-based Martial Arts tree accomplish that a Lunar can't already do with existing body-modification and close-combat Charms?  Wouldn't further refining one's control over shapeshifting be represented by advanced body-mod Charms, rather than an M.A. style?  And if the focus of this martial art was on the Lunars' physical, bestial nature, wouldn't that be rather redundant?

 

[Jukashi]

The focus is not on the Lunar's bestial nature, the focus is on the Lunar's morphic nature. And as such, it is distinct from normal Lunar charms, which are more instinctive and primal. It's like the difference between Brawl and MA.


You may say that Brawl is more in-theme for Lunars, that they rely on their animalistic nature rather than their more human capabilities; and if so, why do they have melee charms? Surely the use of weapons is not in-line with the Lunar ethos of self-reliance and instinctive fury.


Lunars are partly animal, yes, but they are also partly human. As such I think it makes sense to be able to use their primal shapeshifting powers in combination with more sensible human combat powers, as they already do with melee charms. Lunars should be able to channel their bestial natures to great effect using their human reason- something which is more in the purview of Martial Arts.


Perhaps the Lunars of the Age of Sorrows could not come up with such things, but the Lunars of the First Age were more in touch with their human sides, and would be more likely to have done so. Some Lunars still have some of that, and with so many First Age Lunars, if it was invented it would have survived.


So, basically, the styles would be quite similar to what Lunars can do already... but more formal. For example, one style I considered would be a Lunar counterpart to Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style- basically the same theme, but with shapeshifting instead of direct essence manipulation.


finally, as I suggested, it wouldn't be limited to Lunars. I reckon anyone with shapeshifting powers would be able to learn the styles.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

Well, post some Charms, and let's see what you've got.

 

[Jukashi]

Well I haven't made any properly yet, getting feedback on the whole idea first was the point of the thread.


I'll see what I can do.

 

[Hanat-Osul]

I'd make some suggestions, but since I find the idea fundamentally flawed, I don't know what to offer you in the way of feedback or ideas.  Apologies.

 

[Jukashi]

Did up a sutra. It's basically a fancy description of exaltation, but then, so's the Terrestrial one.


"Within the wild forests, Harani traveled.


Treading a narrow path


Through leaf and shadow.


For she was Lost.


As sight was absent in the darkness


So too was there a void in her strength.


But she continued.


And there before her came a cold light


For the ruler of the Night


Came down to her side.


Both male and female,


And yet not either.


And Luna took Harani's face in her hands, speaking thus;


"You who are weary, I give you strength,


Walking on,


Though you have no hope.


Be loose from hunger, my daughter,


Be loose from mortal weakness.


For you are more powerful than the furious Rhino.


More fleet than the fearful Gazelle,


More enduring than the stoic Badger.


More imposing than the mighty Bear,


More cunning than the wily Vixen.


More beautiful than the blazing Tiger,


More keen-eyed than the hunting Hawk.


More learned than the wisest Man,


And quicker than the wary Serpent.


Indeed you are beyond all creatures,


You are grown beyond the seed of your mortality,


Grown beyond the prison of your flesh, your prison becomes your vessel.


Go forth, sister of the Sun,


And be Free."


So Luna did teach Harani


In the endless possibilities of her flesh, and the mastery thereof.


So her will became one with her Essence,


And her Essence was one with her form,


Mistress of her Self.


The Child of the Growing Moon slipped between the trees


Unbound."


The Growth of the Perfected Lotus Sutra,


Also known as the Mutated Lotus Sutra.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I wouldn't fuck with the Perfected Lotus.


Not with a half step, not with a Mutated Petal or what not.


Run with a version of the Bulb of the Perfected Lotus, the Celestial Initiation.  It deals not only with the idea of functions of the Creation and the Heavens, but also about the role critters play in it.  That means the shaping of ideal forms is perfectly suited for this level of understanding.  It's right there in the PG.  


Like I said, I think that the idea is a bit redundant, but it's not my table, so I can't complain too loudly, but if you're bound and determined to do this, then I would suggest at least trying to stay thematically appropriate.


I think that Lunars are not terribly well suited for Martial Arts, as Martial Arts are about rigid limits, about a form of discipline that is counter to the very nature of the Lunars--the limits of Martial Arts forms has to do about understanding the limits of the body, yours and your opponent.


Which, you begin to pipe up, is the point, right?  


Wrong.  Or rather, I disagree with that idea, because the very nature of looking for "freedom from limits" is anathema to the rigid discipline of the Martial Arts.  Martial Arts is about practice, about tuning the body to understand its limits, and surpass them through practice.


And Lunars can do that, naturally, without a lot of practice.  The very idea of extra practice to do what they already do is where I think that the Martial Arts, even one to teach them extra funky powerz of shapeshifting, is redundant.


Lunars break the rules all the time.  That's their thing. They find limits and transcend them.  All the time.  Why practice extra and put particular emphasis on one style, that actually limits their natural abilities?  


The idea that a Martial Art is going to "free them of the limits of their bodies" is kind of redundant, because every single Lunar already does that, with their normal Charms.  Look at the Charm sets again.  Where do you see limits in Lunars in their shape shifting that a Martial Art form could improve?  


I bring these points up, because I think that you're thinking too much about this, and missing the important themes for Lunars.  That they already are about transcending limits, that they are already about fine control of their forms.  Forcing them into a mold of Martial Arts is a step back for them, not a step forward.  They don't need no stinkin' Martial Arts forms, because they are already perfect expressions of their natures, and can shape themselves to further that expression, naturally.  Without thought.  Without the limits of extra practice.  


They don't need the dsicipline of a Martial Art, because they are already perfectly expressing their natures.

 

[Fruan]

With a little flexibility, I do like clinch rules.

That little flexibility is, of course, called the stunt rule ;o)


Remember - Stunts don't just add dice. They can also be used to break the rules. So if you're in a clinch and want to hit your clincher with your daiklave, stunt it.

 

[Jukashi]

Nya. Right, right, I give in.


Good points from all concerned, I admit my defeat. Martial Arts just doesn't go with Lunars, and it'd all be stuff they can do already. Your kung fu is best.


So, let's see, so far I've lost DK MA and Lunar MA. What'll I try next?