Lunar Illusion Charms.

[Seiraryu]

So after totally hijacking the Lunar Sorcery thread beyond comprehension, memesis told me, based on my post, that if I wanted to discuss what I meant by "illusions" I should create another thread and see what developes.  I think this is perfectly reasonable.  Here goes.


When it comes to Lunars, when I say "illusion" I mean altering the reality to affect the senses of those receptive to the illusion.  Thus, while a Lunar affects herself (and occasionally others at advanced levels) with shapeshifting, she affects the ambience and senses of others using illusions.  She could form the illusion that she is invisible (vaguely a la Predator) or create  fully realistic, all-senses manipulating illusions.  A gigantic tyrant lizard could appear out of no where, due to the Lunar's Charm use, and those that are affected by the illusion would see it, smell it, hear it, feel the ground shake whenever the big creature stomps its foot, and even taste its musk in the air...


However, it is merely an illusion.  Thus, while the tyrant lizard could seem perfectly real, it would not be able to affect the world around it, and would have no sentience or even will of its own.  It wouldn't be able to harm the Lunar's enemies, only provide something for them to worry about while the Lunar does other things.  The Lunar's enemies could strike at the Tyrant Lizard, and with sufficient skill, the Lunar might be able to make the beast react as if it were hurt... but the beast itself wouldn't be able to retaliate, though it might pretend to (by swooping down for a snap of its jaws, only to either miss or pass through its target, probably revealing its illusory nature).


These are extremes, of course; Illusory Charm trees should be more drawn out, etc.  Illusions may also for hallucinations, where the victim actually suffers pain, though no real damage (or perhaps loss of Temporary Willpower as damage).  Illusions can also affect the senses of others towards the Lunar (making him invisible, etc).  It would work, basically, as an extended and eventually far more powerful version of the Changing Moon anima power.


As they further up a tree and in Essence and Attribute requirement, Illusion Charms should grow in the amount of effect they have, clouding minds (think The Shadow) and sometimes creating entire realities within the mind of a target, letting them believe they are in a world completely different.


This would be a totally new take on Lunars, but I think it'd be appropriate.  However, I haven't read Exalted: The Fair Folk, and would probably like to keep these Charms as mechanically seperate from the Raksha's as possible.  I'll have to read FF before I can really think this through.


Them's the basics.  Illusion.  For Lunars.


Is it stupid?  Unecessary?  Unfeasible?  Whacky?  Thoughts, anyone?

 

[memesis]

So after totally hijacking the Lunar Sorcery thread beyond comprehension, memesis told me, based on my post, that if I wanted to discuss what I meant by "illusions" I should create another thread and see what developes.  I think this is perfectly reasonable.  Here goes.

If by this you mean I did my share of hijacking, you're probably right.  Think of that request as my attempt to make things right.


With that said, here are some concrete sources I can see for Lunar illusions.  Which (if any) of these do you find reasonable explanations?


1. Inherent power from Luna as a totem of trickery and deceit.


2. Access to, or mastery over, the Wyld in some fashion.


3. Access to glamour sorcery independent of the Fair Folk.


4. Hallucinogenic herbs, powders, drugs, and other chemicals.


5. Alliance with spirits, gods, or other unusual entities that help out.


6. Supernatural manipulation abilities providing a sort of 'cloud-mens-minds' compulsion.


7. Personal shapeshifting that has some hypnotic effect on the subject's senses.

 

[wordman]

When it comes to Lunars, when I say "illusion" I mean altering the reality to affect the senses of those receptive to the illusion.

My initial reaction to this definition is that it makes the difference between Fair Folk and Lunars much more interesting. I think a lot of the resistance to giving Lunars illusionary powers has to do with WW feeling that illusions are the realm of the Fair Folk, and thus shouldn't be the realm of Lunars.


This definition, however, opens the (or, at least, my) mind to there being a very clear division between lunar illusions (which work by tricking the senses) and raksha illusions (which work by actually altering reality). In other words, the raksha version of the tyrant lizard (probably some type of gossamer simulacrum) really would be making the ground shake whereas the lunar version would only make people think it was. If there were a seismograph there, the raksha version would register, but the lunar wouldn't. (For Shadowrun players, it's like the difference between physical and mana-based illusions).


At least, that seems to be the idea.


The question, really, is "do Fair Folk really work this way"? I think it may be the case that the raksha can do both types of illusion, while lunars can do only one (although Lunars can, of course, maniuplate their own form for real). I'd definitely check out the Fair Folk book and see how their charms work, particularly those that deal in illusions that are not shaping combat (there is some kind of Beguilement effect, I think? for example).


Another question is: if lunars are really confusing perceptions, aren't they really just engaged in shaping combat? (Cup, I think?) If so, perhaps the lunar illusion charm tree could be a variation of cup shaping charms that have more power in creation (and, perhaps, altered to work on its time scale), but much less in the wyld. The shaping combat mechanics might also provide a good guide to how damage from the bite of an illusionary tyrant lizard might be resolved.

 

[Seiraryu]

So after totally hijacking the Lunar Sorcery thread beyond comprehension, memesis told me, based on my post, that if I wanted to discuss what I meant by "illusions" I should create another thread and see what developes.  I think this is perfectly reasonable.  Here goes.

If by this you mean I did my share of hijacking, you're probably right.  Think of that request as my attempt to make things right.


With that said, here are some concrete sources I can see for Lunar illusions.  Which (if any) of these do you find reasonable explanations?


1. Inherent power from Luna as a totem of trickery and deceit.


2. Access to, or mastery over, the Wyld in some fashion.


3. Access to glamour sorcery independent of the Fair Folk.


4. Hallucinogenic herbs, powders, drugs, and other chemicals.


5. Alliance with spirits, gods, or other unusual entities that help out.


6. Supernatural manipulation abilities providing a sort of 'cloud-mens-minds' compulsion.


7. Personal shapeshifting that has some hypnotic effect on the subject's senses.

1. Sounds pretty plausible, and thematic.


2. This would be something that they would gain after the First Age, so the real trick would be deciding whether or not they've had illusion based Charms before or after the Usurpation.


3. This doesn't really have a justification.  It's basically the result of the justifications you gave in the other options.


4. This could be a derivative of their powers, and maybe barbarian Shamans could have their own branch of Alchemy that is based on this... but I think Lunars should continue their Charm-based powers, in this aspect.


5. Not sure what you mean by this... do you mean that their powers are based on getting actual help from spirits and gods at the moment, or that they've inherited the power from these spirits/gods?


6. See 3; this doesn't really give a justification.


7. I think it should be seperate--though definitely comboable with Shapeshifting.


Nice ideas, most of them, however.  This might turn out to be a truly interesting conversation.

 

[Seiraryu]

When it comes to Lunars, when I say "illusion" I mean altering the reality to affect the senses of those receptive to the illusion.

My initial reaction to this definition is that it makes the difference between Fair Folk and Lunars much more interesting. I think a lot of the resistance to giving Lunars illusionary powers has to do with WW feeling that illusions are the realm of the Fair Folk, and thus shouldn't be the realm of Lunars.


This definition, however, opens the (or, at least, my) mind to there being a very clear division between lunar illusions (which work by tricking the senses) and raksha illusions (which work by actually altering reality). In other words, the raksha version of the tyrant lizard (probably some type of gossamer simulacrum) really would be making the ground shake whereas the lunar version would only make people think it was. If there were a seismograph there, the raksha version would register, but the lunar wouldn't. (For Shadowrun players, it's like the difference between physical and mana-based illusions).


At least, that seems to be the idea.


The question, really, is "do Fair Folk really work this way"? I think it may be the case that the raksha can do both types of illusion, while lunars can do only one (although Lunars can, of course, maniuplate their own form for real). I'd definitely check out the Fair Folk book and see how their charms work, particularly those that deal in illusions that are not shaping combat (there is some kind of Beguilement effect, I think? for example).


Another question is: if lunars are really confusing perceptions, aren't they really just engaged in shaping combat? (Cup, I think?) If so, perhaps the lunar illusion charm tree could be a variation of cup shaping charms that have more power in creation (and, perhaps, altered to work on its time scale), but much less in the wyld. The shaping combat mechanics might also provide a good guide to how damage from the bite of an illusionary tyrant lizard might be resolved.

Right.  My problem with the concept is that I didn't know how Fair Folk illusion-type powers work, much less Shaping Combat.  However, I'd like to keep it a bit simpler than I've heard Shaping Combat is.


I'm happy to see that my definition of illusion is different than the Fair Folk powers... I like the idea that Lunar powers might work better in Creation and worse in the Wyld, especially since it fervents the idea that the Wyld is so mutable and susceptible to this sort of thing that it's sort of "immune" to Creation-based illusionism.


I definitely will have to give Fair Folk a read... however, I wouldn't mind you guys clearing some stuff that you think may be pertinent about it up while I try to catch up!

 

[memesis]

1. Inherent power from Luna as a totem of trickery and deceit. - Sounds pretty plausible, and thematic.
2. Access to, or mastery over, the Wyld in some fashion. - This would be something that they would gain after the First Age, so the real trick would be deciding whether or not they've had illusion based Charms before or after the Usurpation.


5. Alliance with spirits, gods, or other unusual entities that help out. - Not sure what you mean by this... do you mean that their powers are based on getting actual help from spirits and gods at the moment, or that they've inherited the power from these spirits/gods?

I've selected these as ones you seemed to find palatable, but feel free to bring up any others (either ones I mentioned or others).


Option two appeals if you want to posit the discovery of illusions as one way that the Lunars survived assaults from the Sidereal-backed Dragon-Blooded host of the Shogunate era, aside from the pretty undeniable shield of "being in the Wyld".  My gut instinct is that they didn't really NEED to cloud men's minds in the First Age anyway, so how much you like this option seems to depend on how integral to the Lunar concept you want mental illusions to be.


Option five can actually go both ways.  Sidereals have Charms that explicitly interact with spirits and gods, and there's nothing that excludes Lunars from developing something along these lines.  "Among my many other tattoos, I have one in which a little god lives, and it springs out on my command to cast Host of Spirits on some hapless fool before it runs back inside" is fine as a Charm, if you ask me, although it need not be so direct.  Larry Niven wrote a short story involving a warlock with a pentacle (and consequent bound demon) tattooed on his back, so I'm standing in good company here.


.. and for some reason, having gods bound into tattoos seems pretty cool.  Maybe mix your tattoo ink with ground-up yasal crystal or something ...


I've also seen the "Lunar geomancy" proposals on the wiki, where Lunars reshape their bodies and Essence into geomantically meaningful patterns to produce occult effects.  While I don't want to trod on the Eclipse/Moonshadow schtick by letting Lunars directly acquire spirit Charms, I can see something like "spirit cross-training", where the Lunars develop their own spirit-like Charms in imitation of a small god.  This approach might also lead to the much-vaunted "Lunar martial artist" thing, since supernatural martial arts are all about Essence manipulation anything.

 

[Seiraryu]

While the spirit/gods ideas are cool, I don't really see them for Lunars.  It's not quite compatible with Charms, which is in fact the system I want to employ when mechanically arranging the Illusory Lunar thing.


Perhaps both of the other options could be combined into one.  Who's to say that Luna wasn't looking away from the Games of Divinity just in time to see her Chosen being hunted down like dogs by the Sidereals and the Dragon-blooded host?  She could have come down to the eldest or most prominent amongst them and spoken of how she could show them how to understand the Wyld and use its chaotic nature to their advantage; how to adapt the talents of the Raksha to defend themselves from their enemies in Creation like the Raksha do so in the Wyld.


How does that sound?

 

[memesis]

While the spirit/gods ideas are cool, I don't really see them for Lunars.  It's not quite compatible with Charms, which is in fact the system I want to employ when mechanically arranging the Illusory Lunar thing.
Perhaps both of the other options could be combined into one.  Who's to say that Luna wasn't looking away from the Games of Divinity just in time to see her Chosen being hunted down like dogs by the Sidereals and the Dragon-blooded host?  She could have come down to the eldest or most prominent amongst them and spoken of how she could show them how to understand the Wyld and use its chaotic nature to their advantage; how to adapt the talents of the Raksha to defend themselves from their enemies in Creation like the Raksha do so in the Wyld.


How does that sound?

Sounds fine, particularly if this coincided with the development of the tattoos and the salvage of the Lunar Castes.

 

[Seiraryu]

Yeah, that's particularly good.  Especially since they'd probably need to go on extended trips to the Wyld intinitially to develope the base for these charms.  I doubt Luna made them all and just handed them over--not her style.

 

[Forn Clakes]

An old EC'ite named Sumocat made a series of Lunar illusion Charms, which i did download.  Only problem is that they have been wiped from my computer, and i've only got them as print outs.  I'll try to get them on the site soonish, or you could try to track down Sumocat and get them off his website.


~FC.

 

[wordman]

I'm happy to see that my definition of illusion is different than the Fair Folk powers...

I'm not actually sure that it is. I'm just thinking that it could be made to (if it isn't already). I'm not a Fair Folk guru at all.


Note, however, Lunars can learn Fair Folk charms, given a fair folk that forges grace(s) for them.


BTW, the complications in shaping combat are more conceptual than mechanical. Mechanically, it's similar to standard combat (with some additions). It is sort of hard to wrap your noodle around though. The wiki comes to the rescue here, a bit. With examples.

 

[Seiraryu]

I'm happy to see that my definition of illusion is different than the Fair Folk powers...

I'm not actually sure that it is. I'm just thinking that it could be made to (if it isn't already). I'm not a Fair Folk guru at all.


Note, however, Lunars can learn Fair Folk charms, given a fair folk that forges grace(s) for them.


BTW, the complications in shaping combat are more conceptual than mechanical. Mechanically, it's similar to standard combat (with some additions). It is sort of hard to wrap your noodle around though. The wiki comes to the rescue here, a bit. With examples.

Those links are... awesome.  Heh.  Now I have a much better grasp of what Shaping Combat is, and now, it isn't anything like the illusions I'd like Lunars to have.