Life Effects

[Jukashi]

If Abyssals cause death effects in Creation when they visit it, both through their own simple nature and through Resonance, do Solars cause life effects when they visit the Underworld?


"I say, glorious leader, I cannot help but notice that various grasses and flowers are sprouting from the very spot where your feet have trodden upon this blighted earth. It's quite nice and all, but it does sort of impede our not leaving a trail for those legions of unholy horrors from beyond the grave to follow. Could you perchance stop it?"

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

It could be interesting...though I'd see a Wood Aspect as being at least as likely to have similar effects...particularly if they flare...


Either way...or even with both, could make for some amusing scenes and RP...

 

[wordman]

Similarly, as death effects in Creation break down the barrier between the Underworld and Creation (creating a shadowland if they are big enough), wouldn't life effects in the Underworld do so as well?

 

[tjcoonrod]

Interesting thought - although I am unaware of an Abyssal's 'death effects' in creation without resonance. Do those death effects without counting resonance go away if they wear the trappings of the dead?


It would make for amusing scenes and RP for a bit, but would get really old after a while in my mind. So, would you let a crazed Twilight cast Benediction of Arch-Genesis in an area of the underworld, and have it create a shadowland?


You shall go into the underworld, and there, your life powers will create for us...... A SHRUBBERY!

 

[Persell]

I don't think that Solars share the same quintessential affinity to normal creation, and the life-force essence it's comprised of, the same way that Abyssals do with the underworld.  I think this is the case where people have taken the good/evil, life/death dichotome and run a bit too far with it.  Mainly, I think that people too readily assume that Solars are tied to life because their Abyssal counterparts are tied to death. True, Abyssals are the antithesis of the Solars, but that does not mean that they are shadowy picture-perfect dopplegangers living in direct-opposite land, nor should we make assumptions about the Solars and their power because of a feature the Abyssals possess.  Exalted isn't built as a gnostic, Manichaean cosmology, and the malfeans are an entirely different beast than the "opposite" of the Unconquered Sun.


That being said, I think any major expenditure of essence from a Solar, Sidereal or Dragon Blooded will start to erode a shadowland's foothold in creation, but I don't buy the whole "shadowlands being healed by the sheer presence of a Solar".  Of course, that only changes the how, not the why, so yeah, after a battle or something where the forces of creation have triumphed, having a fresh wind blow and maybe a few buds on nearby trees would be an excellent visual treatment.

 

[Jukashi]

Well, let's take to extremes. The Deathlords, now, they've got some nasty effects. The Mask of Winters, for example: the very earth itself weeps blood beneath his feet. If you took an Essence 10, First Age Solar - and to up the ante completely let's say this Solar is completely free of the Great Curse holding back his holiness - and stuck him in the Underworld, what'd happen?

 

[Flyck]

The underworld is very... VERY dead.  There never was any 'life' to it, and it's outside of the boundaries and rules of creation, due to not being part of the 'original design' of creation.  The underworld is really nothing more than the collective thoughts and memories of the ghosts who inhabit it, given a semi-solid form.  


As an inside joke, anytime one of the players in my game ends up eating food or drinking anything in the underworld, I like to quote: "HP and MP restored!  But you're still hungry..."

 

[Jukashi]

The underworld is very... VERY dead.  There never was any 'life' to it, and it's outside of the boundaries and rules of creation, due to not being part of the 'original design' of creation.

That's not quite true. The description of the Neverborn and the Underworld in the 2nd Ed. says that it's composed of congealed essence, drawn from Creation, that's been tainted by the Abyss (through the Neverborn).


Even disregarding that, though, being formed from the memories of the dead, then the Essence of the Underworld is originally Creation's Essence that way, as well; those memories (and the essence that composes the dead themselves) were originally from Creation, formed when the aforesaid dead were alive.


And thirdly, it doesn't matter. Even if there's no potential for life in the Underworld, the Solar themselves introduces it by carrying essence down from Creation. If you're not regaining Essence, after all, then it has to be going somewhere, right?

 

[Flyck]

Well, it was true back in the 1st ed.  The underworld originally was just blank, until enough ghosts remembered locations and gave it form.  Indeed it's still blank if you walk out to where the wyld 'should' in theory be.  The labyrinth is a product of the Neverborn's.  In any case, this is why the underworld has locations or kingdoms no longer in creation.  And in some ways, also why the underworld's version of a city may not look as destroyed.  For example, if there is a city of Hollow in the underworld (not likely as it's not on the map), then provided enough ghosts remember it as it once looked, it wouldn't be nearly as run-down and ruined as Nexus.  It might almost resemble a darker-version of it's 1st age glory.


And yes, anything living like a solar who enters the underworld, tends to bring some of creation's essence in.  This is why they tend to get noticed, and why they tend to get attacked frequently in the labyrinth...  or at least, that was my understanding of why.  Generally, I'm under the mindset that anything living is relatively easy to spot without the aid of a charm or two when it's in the underworld...  (even abyssals).

 

[Jukashi]

Um... yes? I don't quite see what you were getting at, there.

 

[Flyck]

Euhh...  nevermind...

 

[wordman]

I don't think that Solars share the same quintessential affinity to normal creation, and the life-force essence it's comprised of, the same way that Abyssals do with the underworld.

Yes, but so what? You don't need either to create a shadowland. Mortals can create a shadowland, if they kill enough people in creative ways.

 

[Flagg]

I think his general point is that Solars are not the epitome of "life" in the way that Abyssals are the epitome of "death".

 

[Jukashi]

They may not be the epitome of life, but they are described as the champions of life and of living things. They're also the Exalted of the Sun, and the Sun is always associated with life (except possibly in a desert environment), and there are multitudes of Solar effects which are antithical to death and the dead. Additionally, things like cleansing, purification, wholesomeness and health are all associated with Solars, and all those things would have noticeable effects if they leaked out into the Underworld.

 

[wordman]

I think his general point is that Solars are not the epitome of "life" in the way that Abyssals are the epitome of "death".

Yes, I understand. I still don't see what it has to do with the idea of "corrupting" the underworld.


When "death energy" corrupts Creation, it doesn't have to come from an Abyssal to do so. Any death energy will do. Why would "life energy" that "corrupts" the underworld have to be solar energy? Any life energy will do. I'd think certain spells would qualify (Benediction of Archgenesis, for example) not because they are solar, but because they deal with life energy.


I guess the original topic was specifically about if solars had an effect similar to Resonance. I don't think they do. The basic idea of life energy "corrupting" the Underworld seems doable, however.

 

[Jukashi]

Well, that is probably true. But, since solar essence repels death essence, life essence carried by Solars would be more penetrative in the environment of the Underworld, or indeed in a Shadowland.

 

[Ned]

Well, let's take to extremes. The Deathlords, now, they've got some nasty effects. The Mask of Winters, for example: the very earth itself weeps blood beneath his feet. If you took an Essence 10, First Age Solar - and to up the ante completely let's say this Solar is completely free of the Great Curse holding back his holiness - and stuck him in the Underworld, what'd happen?

The neverborn have the insight to grant such powers to their Deathlords because they helped build creation and they are the universe's leading experts on Oblivion and the Underworld. The Underworld only exists because Autocthon didn't build a "death of primordial" command into Creation's life and death cycle. AFAIK, only Lethe existed at the time too, there was no Oblivion.


Autocthon and the Unconquered sun wouldn't have had any insight to the workings of the underworld, they wouldn't have been able to predict what would happen after they killed the primordials. How could they give the abilities that affect something which couldn't be predicted? Solars later designed charms to effect shadowlands (or was it that a Solar could design such a charm, I can't remember the actual statement) but that was after centuries of studying them rather than natural affinity for life. However, next to the primordials the biggest threat to creation was the Fae. Perhaps similiar abilities were given to the Solars to temporairly stabalize portions of the Wyld?

 

[Jukashi]

You argument would hold water if those effects were deliberately placed by the Neverborn. However, those effects - an Abyssal's shadow becoming a malevolent undead creature, the sound of children screaming echoing through the wind around a Deathlord's lair, and the blood from the ground effect - are clearly just side-effects of the vast necromantic power that's been poured into them.


I mean, yes, they may have broadly been put there by the Neverborn, in a kind of "it'd be cool if death followed them everywhere they go" way, but there's nothing to say that the Solars, when they reach high levels of their essence, wouldn't cause similar overflow effects. Or any other magical being, for that matter, in a manner that reflects their nature.


It's essentially just a lower-level, more enduring kind of anima effect, anyway.

 

[Flagg]

Can someone remind me where these effects are layed out? Resonance doesn't really account for what you're describing.

 

[Jukashi]

The undead-shadow thing is a resonance effect given as an example either in the main book or the storyteller's companion. The blood-underfoot thing is in the Mask of Winters' description in the main 2nd ed. book. Otherwise, my memory fails me.

 

[wordman]

You argument would hold water if those effects were deliberately placed by the Neverborn. However, those effects - an Abyssal's shadow becoming a malevolent undead creature, the sound of children screaming echoing through the wind around a Deathlord's lair, and the blood from the ground effect - are clearly just side-effects of the vast necromantic power that's been poured into them.

I don't think so. What you describe are the effects of Abyssals trying to shed Resonance. They only actually gain Resonance in the first place if they choose to do something they shouldn't be doing. Generally, what they "shouldn't be doing" is disobeying their deathlords or trying to behave decently. In other words, Resonance is most often a punishment. In at least the former case, this seems very much a deliberate placement of the Neverborn.


Thus, shedding Resonance seems a lot more like dumping "Neverbornium" into the surrounding countryside to me, not like a result of the Abyssals mere presence.

 

[Lord Heru]

I think the underlying question of this thread - can Solars cause an effect on the Underworld in a way that the Abyssals cause in Creation - is a really great and highly thought-provoking one.


It causes me to wonder what would happen if a Solar cast Benediction of Archgenesis in the Underworld.


It also makes me wonder if a Solar (or other highly powerful Exalted person) could 'cleanse' the Underworld and make it something more pure.


Of course to do this they would need to sever Oblivion and the Neverborn from the Labyrinth and existence, something that is in itself an epic task worthy of millennia of operation.


Providing my thoughts to the origonal poster's question, I would have to so say that at its most basic level, a Solar does not have the capability of doing to the Underworld what the Abyssals do to Creation. That said, I think through the use of Exalted Anima effects (through Peripheral Essence from Creation) or some really potent Obvious Charms and Sorceries, a Solar (or other type of Exalted) could effect the Underworld.

 

[Flyck]

As Wordman mentioned, Resonance isn't 'just an effect', resonance shedding is what causes those effects.  Resonance on it's own, just ruins an Abyssal's ability to interact with others socially.  For the most part, it is a punishment inflicted by the Neverborn to keep their minions in line.  Although some Deathlords directly send their Abyssals in opposition of the Litany of Sins (guidelines for  Resonance build-up), so that they will build up resonance and expend it across Creation (the Lover, being just such a case).  However, just by adhering to the trappings of the dead, the Abyssal will gradually loose built-up Resonance.  So in effect, Resonance Effects are not really the necrotic power in the abyssal leaking through, but rather the Abyssal shedding off the Malfean's displeasure in their actions.  A canny Abyssal (Day castes usually), will ride this line and take the necessary actions to make sure his Resonance doesn't build up at all (which really, isn't very difficult to do).


Common causes for Resonance build up:


-Responding to your original name (the one casted down into Oblivion.


-Accepting the hospitality of the living (specifically, staying the night in someone's home... INNs don't matter).


-A night of pleasure with a living lover (fellow Abyssals don't count).


-Bearing or siring offspring with a living lover (lots of resonance gets slammed on you here... no matter if it turns out as a Half-Caste)


-Displeasing your Deathlord (they can inflict 1 point on you a day)


-Deliberately acting to save the life of a living person (again, Abyssals don't count)


And a few more I don't remember off the top of my head.