How stealth defeating are combos.

[The zombie cat]

How stealth defeating are combos.


I was thinking of a combo including observer deceiving attack for use buy a night cast solar assassin. But it occurs to me that it might be a bit pointless hiding where the attack comes from if I’m going to light up like a Christmas tree anyway, naturally I had intended to use personal essence or pay the surcharge to suppress my anima.


So how stealth defeating is the combo display supposed to be when your peripheral essence expenditure is still zero.


Edward

 

[Ledaal Kajiri]

In 2nd Ed. Combos are only obvious if you include charms with the Obvious keyword in them. Well, unless you want them to be... shouldn't be too hard to make them that way even without the word...but wouldn't have to be.

 

[The zombie cat]

Sorry I probably should have checked before posting, it is more explicit in E2 than I remember in E1.

when a character uses a combo in battle or war, there is an unmistakably brilliant display of essence. Any character present will know that the exalt is using a combo the moment she pays the temporary willpower to activate it.

This of cause really sucks from the point of view of anybody wanting to get a kill without anybody having a chance to respond (the hole point of the night cast anima power, sneak around and achieve your aims with nobody knowing you’re an exalt. Naturally you can use the 2nd and 5th exultancies and any other single charm and in many cases this would be sufficient,  its just a little annoying that when big weapons are ok you can have a powerful combo capable of killing an experienced dragon blood in one action (if your willing to burn your essence pool) but when you have to sneak in with nothing better than a consolable knife even the kings of stealth and magic cant cover for there pitiful weapons using powerful, complex magic’s.


I don’t want to be able to do as much damage as a dawn cast with a grand diclave, just as much as a dawn cast with a mundane dagger, probably less because I also need charms for sneaking in as well as offensive charms and combos.


Interestingly in social combat (where such a display would be just as harmful as in quiet attacks) there is no comparable issue.


Edward

 

[memesis]

This of cause really sucks from the point of view of anybody wanting to get a kill without anybody having a chance to respond

If Observer-Deceiving Attack says "the attacker does not detect the Solar's attack", then that's how it is.  The Solar uses a Combo, which is obvious to everyone but the target, and the Combo has its usual other effects.

 

[The zombie cat]

I understand that the combo could still kill the target, but after that everybody is going to know it was you, even the physical evidence that you where behind the target and the knife is in his throat is unlikely to get you off. Even if you’re disguised escaping will be essence intensive and you just burned most of yours on the attack.


I guess I can live with that however, escape scenes can be fun to. You just need to be careful when your not disguised not to use that combo or everybody will know it wasyou.


Edward

 

[Haku1]

I don't see why you can't stunt your combos USING your divine Night caste powers to hide the anima flare from the use of each charm.


Now, it'll appear that SOMETHING supernatural happened... someone got gakked... but you? You'll not be flaring...


Unless you used Obvious charms in that combo, in which case, you might wanna rethink that combo over.

 

[The zombie cat]

The wording I quoted earlier seems pretty clear cut “Any character present will know that the exalt is using a comboâ€

 

[Haku1]

*coughs*


Ninjaboy clung to the ceiling of the temple, the essence within his body concealing his presence. Muting his aura, those who gazed upwards would find their sight shifting so that they didn't look at him, while those who did look at where he clung saw only shadows... perfectly naturally.


Regulating his breath to the utmost so that it did not affect the flows of essence in the air around him, Ninjaboy stayed as still as that of a statue.


Patiently.


Perfectly.


That was when he saw his target...


With the absolutely slowness of glaciers, his arm twitched once. Muscles contracting, so as to maximize the slaying power of his poisoned throwing knife. As his arm moved, the essence within his body flared and convulsed. Perhaps if anyone had been looking at him with the clarity of those who could see essence, they might have seen his dread technique of "kill you so dead, but I didn't do it".


To those in the temple hall, all they saw was a single knife, glowing with essence flying swift as a beam of sunlight slamming into the back of Mnemon McDragonblooded Bob, slaying the mighty dragonblooded in an instant.


An outcry was raised instantly, with everyone pointing here and there as they attempted to find the murderer.


None looked up at the ceiling where Ninjaboy still clung... unseen.


***


See... the trick is that people HAVE to SEE the exalt USE said combo to know that said exalt USED a combo... that's the point of stealth-combos.

 

[Samiel]

Well-put! Nothing says it like example.


Another consideration though; observer decieving attack makes it so that the attack comes from elsewhere as far as the observers understand it.


We'll say your thrown combo features a spiralling golden mote trailing after the knife which explodes into a laughing masquerade mask upon the face of the victim when the knife strikes. That's fine, it's quite obvious and everyone sees you using a combo. Except, they see the combo coming from over there..


Your anima may briefly flicker and flare during combo use, and the attack may glow beautifully, but that's transient, it's not like a real anima flare that lasts. You can stealth away without glowing.

 

[The zombie cat]

Although observer deceiving attack works to get the target off guard (subject to wits + awareness) anybody watching the solar will know after the fact that it was him. Only those not watching at the time of the attack are fooled buy the fact that the blade curved around and hit the victim on the wrong side.


From that example I am guessing that a combo is obvious but not stealth defeating. If nobody can see you nobody can see your combo display. That works.


Edward

 

[Haku1]

*nods* yes...


Combos aren't that bad... yes, -if- someone was looking at the solar as he pulls off the combo, they'll know he DID something, they might not be sure what... after all, the attack that hit that person came from elsewhere... ^_-


But yes, the key trick with stealth attack is making sure people don't see you... that you re-establish stealth as fast as possible IF they see you.

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

I think Haku's on the right track.  There's nothing that I've seen that states that the Obvious keyword necessarily means "flashy".  It simply means that the user is doing something that a normal human couldn't possibly do and thus witnesses must assume that it's a magical effect.


Now, the wording of the Combo rules lean a little towards flashy, but it depends on your interpretation of the word brilliant.  I tend toward interpreting it so that Combos are more "signature moves" and less "OMG EXPLOSION!!!".  That's what Sorcery is for.


On the topic of Social Combos, while they aren't necessarily Obvious, I still think they should be distinctive, signature moves, a la Phoenix Wright's Finger of Justice.

 

[The zombie cat]

*nods* yes...
Combos aren't that bad... yes, -if- someone was looking at the solar as he pulls off the combo, they'll know he DID something, they might not be sure what... after all, the attack that hit that person came from elsewhere... ^_-


But yes, the key trick with stealth attack is making sure people don't see you... that you re-establish stealth as fast as possible IF they see you.

now we come up against the difficulty that joining battle ends all solar stealth charms, so the question becomes, can you make a single attack from a concealed position without joining battle, if not your going to need to rely on artifacts or mundane stealth (possibly enhanced with a stealth Excellency, you can put that in your combo) flurried after your attack to evade notice until you can activate a charm the next action.


Edward

 

[Haku1]

*nods* yes...
Combos aren't that bad... yes, -if- someone was looking at the solar as he pulls off the combo, they'll know he DID something, they might not be sure what... after all, the attack that hit that person came from elsewhere... ^_-


But yes, the key trick with stealth attack is making sure people don't see you... that you re-establish stealth as fast as possible IF they see you.

now we come up against the difficulty that joining battle ends all solar stealth charms, so the question becomes, can you make a single attack from a concealed position without joining battle, if not your going to need to rely on artifacts or mundane stealth (possibly enhanced with a stealth Excellency, you can put that in your combo) flurried after your attack to evade notice until you can activate a charm the next action.


Edward

*blinks* I don't recall THAT bit. Where Join Battle ends stealth charms.

 

[Knight_of_Chaos]

now we come up against the difficulty that joining battle ends all solar stealth charms' date=' so the question becomes, can you make a single attack from a concealed position without joining battle, if not your going to need to rely on artifacts or mundane stealth (possibly enhanced with a stealth Excellency, you can put that in your combo) flurried after your attack to evade notice until you can activate a charm the next action.[/quote']
That is kind of a bummer.


And technically, based on one way to read the Combo rules, I don't think you're supposed to flurry any actions that don't use the Ability of your Supplemental (etc.) type Charms.  "Charm must benefit all actions in a flurry" I believe is what it says.  It's kind of hard to tell if that was their intent, as WW has never really had good rules-lawyers working for them.  If someone could prove/disprove my ramblings, I'd appreciate it.


Honestly, I think Combos are too restrictive anyway, so I personally could go either way on that issue.