How primordial are the Primordials?

[Dereis]

Ok, so lets sum up what we've learned so far:


The Primordials are basically omnipotent raksha.  Am I understanding this correctly?  In that case, did they make Creation as a part of their eternal plots and schemes in the Wyld?  Did the Wyld exist before Creation or was it pure chaos?  If it was pure chaos, from whence did the form of the Primordials spring?  What motivation could the Primordials have had to create permanent form?  How many Primordials are there?  By that, I mean how many fetiches were there during the war?  We can assume at least 7 Yozis (unless I am reading GoD wrong), and I seem to remember the number 13 as the number of Malfeans (don't have the book in front of me), so at least 20, plus Auto and Gaea.  Can we assume that the weapons that Autochthon made for the Exalted were capable of unraveling the component souls of the Primordials?  Isn't that a pretty damn powerful capability?  Did all the other Primordials know how to kill each other?  If so, why is no mention made of them struggling amongst themselves prior to the war?  Was there a head Primordial?  How were the Games of Divinity created? Was it a joint effort, or was a single one responsible?  I like to think that Auto made them with the knowledge he would have to confront his peers in an attempt to distract them from his workings.  That would explain why he wasn't enamored with playing them.


Secondly, wouldn't the ambush of the Primordial war have actually been an ambush on the Jade Pleasure Dome of Yu-shan?  The primordials were always there playing the GoD.  But the Games weren't damaged in any way?


Thirdly, if the Primordials just wandered in out of pure chaos, why didn't they flee back into it at the first sign of danger?  Ok, maybe not the first sign, but instead of surrendering?  Somehow, fleeing must have been out of the question, I assume.


Also, the fact that the Primordials are Raksha seems like it should have at least some implication on the relations of Yozis and Malfeans to the Fair Folk.  More with Yozis than with Malfeans though.  Perhaps other immensely powerful raksha out in pure chaos were once great allies or rivals with the Primordials.  Those raksha would think that the Primordials were distracted by their creation, and that perhaps by destroying it they could free their brethren from the bonds they are under.  Wouldn't the Yozis at least still have a clear grasp on the nature of the Fair Folk and what lies beyond the borders of creation?  Wouldn't other Fair Folk regard the Primordials as the greatest ever among their race?  Or would they curse them as betrayers for creating permanent form?


My guess is that most of this is left up to each ST to decide, but I'd like to see if anyone can offer me some compelling answers to these questions.


Oh, and is there any canonical mention of what Gaea's been up to for the past few millenia besides being Luna's consort?

 

[Flagg]

Oh, and is there any canonical mention of what Gaea's been up to for the past few millenia besides being Luna's consort?

Playing the Games.


-S

 

[Persell]

Actually, your questions are up for your storyteller to answer and no one else. Yes primodials could have been fearies but as most fatsplats' pov has some bias in it this is definitely not a FACT. Same goes for all your other questions on why or how this or that happened, make it part of your plot.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I don't think of the Primordials as being Rakasha.  Rather, those beings are like ripples created by the thoughts of critters as powerful as the Primordials.  By-blows more-like of the unfathomable thoughts of creatures powerful enough to bring the Creation out of nothing.


Did they war amongst each other before?  Who knows.  That might or might not have been.  More likely, they competed in ways that are by definition, unfathomable to Mortals or even Exalts.  Coming to direct blows?  That sort of thing would be beneath them.  Understanding themselves, that would be natural.  Understanding their own metaphyscial make up wouldn't neccessarily mean they warred on each other, but at least had some rudimentary self preservation.  Metaphyical medical knowledge.


Same with the idea of retreat.  Retreat?  From their own Creation?  From beings they breathed life into?  Why would they do that?  


Hubris is a big component of any Exalted story, and not just where the Exalts are concerned.  Gods gots it.  Primordials gots it.  Exalts gots it.  Mortals kings gots it.  Hubris is that most special sin that makes the Exalted world go round.


As for where the Primordials were...if you can create a whole universe, why do you need to be in any single location?  Think Mage and Corespondance.  If Magi can co-locate, could the Primordials be less talented?


In short, you're thinking small.  Go bigger.  The Primordials were much bigger than your musings thus far.  Think as big as the biggest Rakasha are, and then pile a bit on top of that.  Think of critters big enough to cause those Rakasha to come into being by the pressure of their very thoughts a dimension away.  Think of critters that exist on several planes of existance at the same time.


I run with the idea that the Primordial War went on not just in the Creation, but much further out.  The Exalts were just one facet of the War.  The Creation, just one front, and the reflections of the Primordials that were imprisoned tend to focus on the Creation and her creatures, but they are much larger and there are other worlds, and other existances that were affected.

 

[Obsidian Soul]

The Primordials did not create the entire universe, they just created a relatively small pocket of stability within the Wyld.  From what I've been able to gather, Creation is currently three-quarters of the area of the earth, around 150 million square miles.  Before the Contagion Wars it was about twice as big, I think, and before the Primordial Wars it was about ten times as big, I think.


I believe there are at least 23 Yozis in Malfeas, at least there are 23 whose names are still known.  I think there are thirteen Malfeans, though I am not entirely sure of that number, it just feels right.  Add that total with Gaia and Autochthon, and perhaps a few that might have fled into the Wyld to avoid the Gods and the Exalted, it is possible that there were as many as fifty Primordials.  Who knows?  There could have been an even one hundred, which does feels a bit better than fifty for some reason.

 

[Flagg]

It's been a while since I read the relevant material, but I thought that ToT implied that before the Contagion, it was more like 6 times larger, and ten times that size before the Primordial War.


Could be fuzzy memory, though. In any case, MUCH has been lost by defying the Primordials. Creation is just a fragment of what it once was.


-S

 

[Kajata]

In my game I like to think of the Primordials as the be all and end all of EVERYTHING.  I don't like to think of them as the products of ANYTHING, but more just that they've always been.


This might fly in the face of canon but I just don't like the idea of there being anything that CREATED primordials and that's how I run my game.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

Can't really fly in the face of canon if there's no canon there...


 Come to think of it, your position is pretty much canon.  8)

 

[Persell]

I am no fan of the primodials are overcharged glamour boys thing either... It feels odd to me and kinda hmmm difficult to word... i think the explanation is so mundane, not mystical... boring.

 

[Jakk Bey]

If it's any consolation, in the meta-plot for my games, it's only the manifestation of the Primordials in this Creation that were chained as the Yozi--their other dimensions were unaffected.  A sort of mental schism, but one that the Primordials just accepted, kind of like losing a word at the tip of your tongue.


Think of the Yozi as just being further sub-souls.  Their manifestation in the Creation was but one facet, localized phenonomena.  Their Demon sub-personalities are just further fracturing of their already disparate nature.


In other Creations, in other points in the Meta-Verse, the Primordials didn't get lazy, in others they defeated the Gods, in others they stepped correct and took care of business.  The Creation, in my games at least, is but one possibility, and the Primordials that the Creation experienced were just reflections of greater beings that only manifested a portion of themselves into it.

 

[Kajata]

Sounds fun


I don't really know how well mutiple universes would work with my theory, but I still like it!

 

[Cthulhu_Wakes]

Personally, I like the idea of the multiple planes of existance, that the Creation reflections were the only things thrown in to Malfeas. Wonderful ideas, no I can finally implement a fuller explanation of the Primordials for my Savant PCs. Consider this yoinked!


*yoink*