Hauberk of Bells

[Flagg]

From the back of the Infernals book.


This armor gives, as the book states, a bonus of [+Performance] to the wearer's DV, as well as a bonus of [+Performance] to all Dexterity-based pools.


If this really gives a flat bonus to DV, it's freaking awesome, but part of me suspects that they meant to say the bonus should be applied to the raw defense pool - in other words, halved.


Any thoughts on this?

 

[Thanqol]

It's absolutely fantastic, and paired with a Chaos Targe and a decent weapon, then you're pretty much invincible. Gives you a base parry DV of something in the area of 14 which applies to even unblockables.


It might be a mistake and deserving of a nerf, but I hope it doesn't get one because I enjoy the idea of the musical butcher.

 

[wordman]

Any thoughts on this?

Don't get me started.

 

[Gylthinel]

Any thoughts on this?

Don't get me started.

No joke. The infernal book doesn't even bother trying to nod at game balance. What's the magic weapon upgrade that inflicts 2 unsoakable/undodgeable lethal damage every time you hit your opponent, OR they parry the attack? F'ing rediculous.


But, to their credit, they had a much more open mind in writing a lot of the Infernal charms. I love how some of the charms have some horrible effect, and then also give the target nightmares (which reduce the willpower you get back). It's a nice touch.


That said, I've outlawed everything in the book, however, unless it has my express seal of approval. And not many things will get that seal. This particular item MIGHT be ok if it only gave 1/2 performance to DV. But, that's a big maybe.

 

[Flamane]

I still haven't read most of my Infernals book, but now I'm inclined to. If it's so unbalanced, I might reconsider throwing in a Infernal nemesis (too much trouble browsing and correcting everything I don't like).


About the Hauberk of Bells, I would most definetly halve the DV bonus.

 

[Thanqol]

Game balance may have taken a bit of a back seat in Infernals, but the ideas are so amazingly good (and my games so rules lite) it's still the best book in my arsenal.

 

[Gylthinel]

Game balance may have taken a bit of a back seat in Infernals, but the ideas are so amazingly good (and my games so rules lite) it's still the best book in my arsenal.

Two questions.


1) What ideas do you like? I personally could care less about the Infernals themselves, but I really like the Akuma.


2) How exactly is your game "rules lite"? I've been considering quitting Exalted due to its excess in bulkiness, so any help with lightening would be awesome!

 

[Thanqol]

Game balance may have taken a bit of a back seat in Infernals, but the ideas are so amazingly good (and my games so rules lite) it's still the best book in my arsenal.

Two questions.


1) What ideas do you like? I personally could care less about the Infernals themselves, but I really like the Akuma.


2) How exactly is your game "rules lite"? I've been considering quitting Exalted due to its excess in bulkiness, so any help with lightening would be awesome!

I am a Primordial fanboy. I love trying to get into the heads of beings like Malfeas, and trying to understand how they're so damn smart, and so damn dumb at the same time. I love the interactions between souls of the same Primordial. I like how there's a genuine offer of a better world in there for Infernals - the Solar Exalted are trapped in an endless cycle of their curse, but the Infernals can actually make it better by writing new laws into the cosmos. I like how Infernals are haunted, driven by their failures - they always know what they did wrong, and seek to make the world a better place - by their own standards - as a result. They can never get full of themselves like Solars do - they did wrong and they are wrong so now they have to make amends. And I like that they can make amends without redemption. There's nothing wrong with being an Infernal. Nothing stopping you from being a hero. Why become a Solar? What could a Solar do that you can't?


And I like how they're doomed to fail from the outset. And that they just might win despite that.


*Deep breath*


Rules lite: I grab the combat chapter, and throw it away. Ticks, charm use, whatever and what have you. I like doing very pretty character sheets, but to me that all serves as a picture of where your character is up to and what he can and cannot do rather than a crunchy combat build.


Fights, I generally run them by each side rolling some dice and make some stunts and that's the end of it. I keep the dice rolling system, all the Charms and suchwith, but it's all abstracted to a back level. I want my Exalted to be a game about characters and ideas and politics (which it does magnificently), not a wargame. There are better wargames. There aren't better settings I've thus far encountered.

 

[Ker'ion]

After the mindbending character creation concepts of my players, that doesn't really look too awful.


I think I'll take a go at said book as well.


...


Hell, I actually talked a GM into letting me play a Lunar with Tattoo Artifact Moonsilver Kata Bracers AND a pair of Jade Kata Bracers over them, since the Tattoos are, well, tattoos, and therefore have no thickness impeding my wearing of both pairs at once.

 

[Thanqol]

Hell, I actually talked a GM into letting me play a Lunar with Tattoo Artifact Moonsilver Kata Bracers AND a pair of Jade Kata Bracers over them, since the Tattoos are, well, tattoos, and therefore have no thickness impeding my wearing of both pairs at once.

You are a bad person.

 

[Plague of Hats]

I still haven't read most of my Infernals book, but now I'm inclined to. If it's so unbalanced, I might reconsider throwing in a Infernal nemesis (too much trouble browsing and correcting everything I don't like).

The meat of the book's crunch, the Charms, are amongst the most solid you'll find anywhere, ever. There are some questionable things in the Hell-Forged Wonders chapter, but the bulk of it is okay. The Hauberk of Bells is perhaps the worst of it, though Demon Ink Tattoos are pretty bad, too, and get more attention because of their greater versatility and cheapness even after Eric Minton made the unofficial corrections about their attunement and how they interact with dice caps.
I find Acid-Rime Weapons dubious, but not clear problems. The rest of the "new magical materials" hardly deserve to increase Artifact ratings as they do, and should really just be new options like the other magical materials.

 

[Thanqol]

I find Acid-Rime Weapons dubious' date=' but not clear problems. The rest of the "new magical materials" hardly deserve to increase Artifact ratings as they do, and should really just be new options like the other magical materials.[/quote']
Agreed. They're generally equal too or lesser than standard MM.

 

[vegetalss4]

Why become a Solar? What could a Solar do that you can't?

not have something as driving as your motivation, making you make the world more hell like?

 

[Thanqol]

not have something as driving as your motivation, making you make the world more hell like?

Pish tosh, malarkey, false propaganda and hatespeak.


Sure, you've got an Urge to make the world more hell-like. Solars have a curse to make the world fucked. Infernals have a hobillion jillian ways to vent their Limit, though, which is the upside of their designed-by-committee approach. Honestly, drop a few guys you were going to kill anyway in a deathtrap while monologuing at them and you're already saner than most Solars.


The deathtrap doesn't even have to kill them.

 

[vegetalss4]

why yes that lowers your limit.


still dosn't change that it is something you want to do so much, that that if someone tried to convince you not to, by appealing to the fact it would seriously hurt your mother, it would still be harder than if he tried to convince you to do something you don't really care about.

 

[Gylthinel]

I am a Primordial fanboy. I love trying to get into the heads of beings like Malfeas, and trying to understand how they're so damn smart, and so damn dumb at the same time. I love the interactions between souls of the same Primordial. I like how there's a genuine offer of a better world in there for Infernals - the Solar Exalted are trapped in an endless cycle of their curse, but the Infernals can actually make it better by writing new laws into the cosmos. I like how Infernals are haunted, driven by their failures - they always know what they did wrong, and seek to make the world a better place - by their own standards - as a result. They can never get full of themselves like Solars do - they did wrong and they are wrong so now they have to make amends. And I like that they can make amends without redemption. There's nothing wrong with being an Infernal. Nothing stopping you from being a hero. Why become a Solar? What could a Solar do that you can't?

All good points. They are intriguing. Though.... Solars are way better at reforming society. WAY better.

Rules lite: I grab the combat chapter, and throw it away. Ticks, charm use, whatever and what have you. I like doing very pretty character sheets, but to me that all serves as a picture of where your character is up to and what he can and cannot do rather than a crunchy combat build.


Fights, I generally run them by each side rolling some dice and make some stunts and that's the end of it. I keep the dice rolling system, all the Charms and suchwith, but it's all abstracted to a back level. I want my Exalted to be a game about characters and ideas and politics (which it does magnificently), not a wargame. There are better wargames. There aren't better settings I've thus far encountered.

I'm VERY intrigued by how this is specifically handled and how it plays out. I ran a game this weekend and the rules nearly destroy it, they're so clunky and cumbersome I nearly forgot I was playing an RPG and not just adding numbers and rolling dice.

I find Acid-Rime Weapons dubious' date=' but not clear problems. The rest of the "new magical materials" hardly deserve to increase Artifact ratings as they do, and should really just be new options like the other magical materials.[/quote']
How is it NOT a problem to do an automatic un-soakable 2 levels of damage to any foe that doesn't dodge?

Ker'ion wrote:
Hell, I actually talked a GM into letting me play a Lunar with Tattoo Artifact Moonsilver Kata Bracers AND a pair of Jade Kata Bracers over them, since the Tattoos are, well, tattoos, and therefore have no thickness impeding my wearing of both pairs at once.


You are a bad person.

Agreed.

 

[Plague of Hats]

I find Acid-Rime Weapons dubious' date=' but not clear problems. The rest of the "new magical materials" hardly deserve to increase Artifact ratings as they do, and should really just be new options like the other magical materials.[/quote']
How is it NOT a problem to do an automatic un-soakable 2 levels of damage to any foe that doesn't dodge?

First, because there's no reason to believe it inflicts levels of damage rather than dice. Second, with it dealing dice of damage in mind, I'm rather on the fence about upping a weapon's Artifact rating by one just so you can do two dice of damage to someone who: 1) You hit and were likely to do damage to anyway, and who gets to soak this extra damage separately; 2) Didn't necessarily have to parry in the first place. I'm completely indifferent to the plight of mundane weaponry and armor in the face of the weapon's effect.
As I said, though, it remains dubious. I'm much more comfortable turning the acid damage into a full-fledged environmental hazard. I'm even more comfortable removing the Accuracy and Defense bonuses it grants weapons and getting rid of the additional Artifact dot cost, achieving parity with my similarly house-ruled Infernal relic weapon materials.

 

[Thanqol]

why yes that lowers your limit.
still dosn't change that it is something you want to do so much, that that if someone tried to convince you not to, by appealing to the fact it would seriously hurt your mother, it would still be harder than if he tried to convince you to do something you don't really care about.

Stuff and nonsense. Your Urge doesn't affect your MDVs at all.


And if we go down THAT road, a Lunar with Solar Bond 3 has a bigger +/- to their MDV regarding their Solar Mate than they do regarding their Motivation. So if a Lunar's Motivation was to 'protect his hometown' and their evil Solar partner said 'Murder them all', then the Lunar, mechanically, would be inclined to do it.


This is a silly, strawman argument, but hopefully the transfer principle shows you that yours is too.

All good points. They are intriguing. Though.... Solars are way better at reforming society. WAY better.

This is true. From Primordial perspectives, humans are ants that don't need reforming - just obedience.


So therefore, some perspectives:


Being unable to brainwash society en-mass would be a bad thing, because a whole lot of Solar abuses come from the fact that everyone is too brainwashed to question them.


Being able to mass brainwash societies is Custom Charm territory - what happens when you apply a human perspective to Primordial essence. Primordials never saw the value; their new human mini-primordials do.


Society doesn't need reform. Instead, Creation needs reform. Why bother sorting out the problems of mortals when the Celestial Bureaucracy is corrupt to the hilt? Make a better world by addressing the key concepts (and Infernals are great at dealing with Gods).

I'm VERY intrigued by how this is specifically handled and how it plays out. I ran a game this weekend and the rules nearly destroy it, they're so clunky and cumbersome I nearly forgot I was playing an RPG and not just adding numbers and rolling dice.

"Okay, he's hitting you now," (stunt fluff removed), "Roll yerself some kind of defense pool."


"Wits+Dodge?"


"Sure, why not?"


*


"Gimme a 'notice something odd about this guy' roll."


"Uh... I suck at that. Perception+Linguistics?"


"Sure, why not? His accent is Haltian."


It's crude, but by the Speedos of Gaia, it makes for a fun game.


I have no opinion on acid-rime weapons.

 

[vegetalss4]

Stuff and nonsense. Your Urge doesn't affect your MDVs at all.


And if we go down THAT road, a Lunar with Solar Bond 3 has a bigger +/- to their MDV regarding their Solar Mate than they do regarding their Motivation. So if a Lunar's Motivation was to 'protect his hometown' and their evil Solar partner said 'Murder them all', then the Lunar, mechanically, would be inclined to do it.


This is a silly, strawman argument, but hopefully the transfer principle shows you that yours is too.

first, my copy of MoEP infernals at least says "an Urge essentially functions as a secondary Motivation. By acting on his Urge, a Green Sun Prince can regain Willpower, and his Urge grants appropriate bonuses and penalties in Social combat just as a normal Motivation does." on page 68


secondarily i admit that it was an extreme example, but the point stands that one of the infernals 2 most important things in life, is to make creation more hell like in a specific way, while the lunar in your example has the solar as the most important thing in her life

 

[Thanqol]

first, my copy of MoEP infernals at least says "an Urge essentially functions as a secondary Motivation. By acting on his Urge, a Green Sun Prince can regain Willpower, and his Urge grants appropriate bonuses and penalties in Social combat just as a normal Motivation does." on page 68
secondarily i admit that it was an extreme example, but the point stands that one of the infernals 2 most important things in life, is to make creation more hell like in a specific way, while the lunar in your example has the solar as the most important thing in her life

Huh, well quoted.


Still, I've got some articles from the setting designers that might change your mind. They certainly changed mine:


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... illNotEvil


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... sEvilorNot


http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... enSunKings


The key quote being "The real question is whether they stab the Yozis in the back or render them obsolete before or after breaking them out of Hell".


These are a bunch of Solar level Exalts the Yozi have made. They're real people, with terrifyingly powerful motivations, drives and willpower. They wouldn't even be considered for the Infernal Exaltation if they didn't have that. So it's the artificial urge tacked onto them by the Yozi verses those terrifying human desires and emotions.


And you know what?


I don't think the Yozi have a chance.


When an Infernal says, "You know what? Fuck you. I'm not burning Gem down." Then what can the Yozi do? What can they seriously, realistically do to bring that Infernal back into the fold? Who can they send to kill him to reclaim his shard? What can they offer him that he cannot achieve himself?


There is nothing. They've made something greater than themselves and haven't realized it yet.

 

[Gylthinel]

Stuff and nonsense. Your Urge doesn't affect your MDVs at all.
And if we go down THAT road, a Lunar with Solar Bond 3 has a bigger +/- to their MDV regarding their Solar Mate than they do regarding their Motivation. So if a Lunar's Motivation was to 'protect his hometown' and their evil Solar partner said 'Murder them all', then the Lunar, mechanically, would be inclined to do it.

Even if this were true (which we've established it is not), it's a pretty gross over-simplification to say that a higher level of solar bond is more important than the Lunar's motivation. It COULD be, but that's more fodder for RP than a cut/dry arguement.


The other thing is that not all Lunars even have the Solar Bond background. In fact, from a strictly mechanical standpoint it really sucks and there's pretty much no reason to get it, IMO. So the wedding between the story of the solar bond, and the mechanic of the solar bond, has not been sanctified by the Gods (editors) of the MoEP: Lunars.


While we're talking about the painful level of rules creep in the Infernals book, lets talk about Green Sun Nimbus Flare. Even without the swath of charms that make it better, its still a smashing good charm. 3 motes to inflict 2 additional levels of damage? It makes Fire and Stones Strike look like a laughing joke.

 

[vegetalss4]

Thanqol


the first link i agree completely with IF we start out by saying that trying to remove free will, make the world one that is full systematically random death, destruction, and betrayal isn't evil. and that heroism means "wow" then green sun princes are heroes.


the second one actuly seems interesting, and i would love having Infernal heroes (in the superman sense, not the making the world into hell is heroic sense) however at least from my perspective it would require removing a few layers of demonic brainwashing, you know so we don't start by having a demon engulf you and twist your, mind body and soul, then placing you into the womb of a little girl that has been twisted, mind body and soul, in order for a yozi to twist your mind body and soul some more, and then leave a demon to make sure you stay twisted.


as for what a yozi can do to a renegade infernal. Torment represents the anger of the yozi more than a curse. in other words what they can offer is this, you aren't constantly wracked by the pain of torment, and having everyone near you get hurt and die. as for who they can send, make the torment obvious enough and the wyld hunt arrive and kill the incappitated infernal for you.


however if these issues where houseruled into something more reasonable i would gladly welcome infernals as heroes.

 

[Gylthinel]

I wasn't able to make it all the way through the 2nd article, so maybe this question has already been answered. But, in relation to the motivation of the Infernals, there's a fundamental contradiction in the whole debate.


1) Evil is in the eye of the beholder. Ergo, maybe the return of the Yozi to creation wouldn't be evil? I can buy that, but then...


2) How you motivate infernals. Infernals would be just as inclined to assist their Malfean masters as the original Exalted were inclined to assist the Gods. There's a place for them in the heirarchy of creation, but that place is just below their creators. Just like the other Exalted. The only reason not to help the Yozi would be because the Infernals wouldn't want to live in a world like Hell... but why not, if that's conceivably not a bad thing?

 

[Thanqol]

Remember, I noted the argument's weakness there. I just wanted to apply the transfer principle to another argument.


Solar Bond buff (because it does suck):


You add the rating in dice to any roll directly related to your Solar or your Solar's ideals. Given that a two dot Daiklave will add more than 2 dice to every single combat roll anyway, this seems fair, yes?


I originally read GSNF as doing two dice of extra damage. Reading the hate, I think I might keep it that way.

the second one actuly seems interesting, and i would love having Infernal heroes (in the superman sense, not the making the world into hell is heroic sense) however at least from my perspective it would require removing a few layers of demonic brainwashing, you know so we don't start by having a demon engulf you and twist your, mind body and soul, then placing you into the womb of a little girl that has been twisted, mind body and soul, in order for a yozi to twist your mind body and soul some more, and then leave a demon to make sure you stay twisted.

Aw c'mon. You just think this is a bad thing because demons are involved.


Thing about Exalted demons (and a theme that I'm going to be big on for my upcoming Dragon Blooded game) is that they're not all bad. Some of them are amazingly constructive! The Primordials didn't build the world and constantly sack it with blood apes, they built the world. Their demons were their hands to do this. Even twisted as they are, there is infinite range for how a demon might twist your mind body and soul, and what it's opinions might be.


I designed an Infernal who got some sort of demonic horse as her Unwoven Coadjutor. It doesn't speak, it just occasionally emotion-pulses. Left the background at 0, and that's the end of it. Not particularly evil.


You could also get a First Circle demon who likes making roads, or archiving knowledge, or whatever. Not everyone binds to a Blood Ape.


(And the Infernal never goes through the womb. And I houserule that Lillun is hot and mostly sane rather than a bloated abomination).

as for what a yozi can do to a renegade infernal. Torment represents the anger of the yozi more than a curse. in other words what they can offer is this, you aren't constantly wracked by the pain of torment, and having everyone near you get hurt and die. as for who they can send, make the torment obvious enough and the wyld hunt arrive and kill the incappitated infernal for you.

Like I said, Torment is STUPIDLY easy to manage. There's so many torment vents which don't involve actual evil that, like I mentioned earlier, drop a few guys who were already on your murder list into a piranha tank and tell them your plans and you're practically immune. And if you don't have a murder list you're not playing the same Exalted I am.

2) How you motivate infernals. Infernals would be just as inclined to assist their Malfean masters as the original Exalted were inclined to assist the Gods. There's a place for them in the heirarchy of creation, but that place is just below their creators. Just like the other Exalted. The only reason not to help the Yozi would be because the Infernals wouldn't want to live in a world like Hell... but why not, if that's conceivably not a bad thing?

BUT THEIR CREATORS SUCK!


Malfeas is a blind, mad tyrant constantly striking out at everything around him. The Ebon Dragon is an asshat. Ecetera. I like to think that it is possible to restore them as full Primordials, and that this would quite possibly make the world a genuinely better place. This is the reasoning behind a Chosen of Adorjan I made - the Yozi are terrible horrible monsters, but a full Primordial might just be grand.


But if you don't have high compassion, then what's to stop them surpassing their creators? They have access to all the Yozi charms, and therefore they're essentially mini-Yozis themselves. Except they are better than the Yozis.


Malfeas thinks in terms of being the King of the Cosmos. He has blind spots the size of Asia in this viewpoint, as his charms wonderfully reflect. The Ebon Dragon takes gigantic penalties just for not lying/being a dick. Their very natures bind them into their personalities.


A human being can evolve. A human being can correct those blind spots. A human being can surpass the Yozis.


As an example, Adorjan hates ranged combat. The Ebon Dragon loves it. Realms, my oft-mentioned Infernal, has charms from both of them, so she can use Adorjan's incredible mobility to supplement the Ebon Dragon's ranged combat. It's a strategy neither Yozi would think of, and neither Yozi can even use. And every Green Sun Prince is like that; every GSP uses the power of one Yozi to correct the massive, crippling flaws in the others.


They can do everything, EVERYTHING, the Yozi can. There comes a point in every GSP's life when they wonder why they even need those guys any more.

 

[Plague of Hats]

Infernals would be just as inclined to assist their Malfean masters as the original Exalted were inclined to assist the Gods. There's a place for them in the heirarchy of creation, but that place is just below their creators. Just like the other Exalted. The only reason not to help the Yozi would be because the Infernals wouldn't want to live in a world like Hell... but why not, if that's conceivably not a bad thing?

This really isn't true. The situations are both more nuanced than that.
When the Exalted were created and then overthrew the Primordials, they were members of a third-class citizenry. Everyone was assumed to be a slave to the Primordials. Overthrowing the Primordials ended up sucking for those who were loyal to the titans, but it didn't have to. If everyone else had played ball then really the only ones who would get a raw deal in the end would be the Primordials. That's the kind of situation the Exalted were originally in. Even if they had hated the Incarnae, there was little to no incentive to tell them to fuck off. And the Incarnae were far more benevolent and kind than their Primordial masters, to whom they were slaves too.


As history moved into the First Age, the Incarnae let the Exalted have free rein. This is far from what the Yozis expect to happen. The imprisoned titans do not have the point of view necessary to begin to understand that the Exalted are dangerous weapons that you must treat gingerly. Even the Ebon Dragon, who convinced the other Yozis to treat the Green Sun Princes nicely, doesn't really understand just how screwed he is by his own plan.


The Exalted of the First Age and the Incarnae had a rough equality going, and both were on good terms until the end. The Yozis initiate their greatest servants and weapons by raping them and defiling their minds because they don't really understand how people work. And in the event the Green Sun Princes succeed, the Yozis expect these nascent titan-amalgamations to step aside and be right-hand men to the obsolete, previous titans who have failed once before and been mutilated for it.