Guns, not Firewands

S

SagaciousAscendingHero

Member
I'm involved in the planning for an Alchemical game and I want to include guns (think revolvers) into the game, but I'm lacking for ideas on what stats to give them. Help needed. Also I use Power Combat, so they need to be PC friendly. Artifact versions would be great too.
 
I'd resist the temptation to have them be too damaging. It's true that guns are very lethal weapons, but that's mostly from shock and bloodloss. A bullet does way less actual tissue damage than a hefty whack with a sword.


Also, the material of the bullets would effect the way they're soaked drastically. If soft lead, like the first guns in out world, damage should probably be halves vs. armor. OTOH, if they're made of some very hard material (like steel, or one of the 5MM), I'd make them piercing.


-S
 
As an aside, I think firewands and fire cannons were always a little dumb. It was Exalted's attempt to have guns, wuthout actually having guns. In my games, they still need firedust, but they fire bullets, not gouts of flame.


-S
 
Treat bullets like crossbow bolts.  A soft lead bullet is like a broadhead (do to the mushrooming effect) and give +2 Damage, a fractured bullet kept together by wax would be a like a frogcrotch arrow (do to the fact that it shatters in the flesh) and would give +4 Damage while doubling armor soak.  A steel bullet would act like a target arrow, doing normal damage but halving armor soak.  A clay bullet would act as a fowling arrow, doing +2 damage, but it is bashing.


Guns, before modern metallurgy, were almost universal muzzle-loaded and had very low rates of fire (even with caplock technology, the greatest rate that they could have in an Exalted game would be 1/3 for pistols and carbines and 1/5 for rifles and a 1/15 for cannons, Exalted would probably use firedust as a propellant instead and would only be able to produce flintlock or wheellock design with their technology, which would lower rate to 1/4, 1/6 and 1/20 respectively.  A six-shooter revolver, which is technically possible used a flintlock technology, would have a rate of 1 for six turns, but would require 5 turns to reload each shot).  As for determining Accuracy, Damage and Range, it would depend on the type of arm.  A pistol would have an Accuracy of +1, Damage 4L and a Range of 20 and a minimum Strength of 1.  A carbine would have an Accuracy of +2, Damage 6L and a range of 50 and a minimum Strength of 2.  A rifle would have an Accuracy of +4, Damage 8L and a range of 100 and a minimum Strength of 3.  


Larger arms are possible.  A small cannon, for instance, would have an Accuracy of +4, Damage 20L and a range of 500 and a minimum Strength of 10 if not properly mounted.  A medium cannon would have an Accuracy of +2, Damage 40L and a range of 1000 and a minimum Strength of 20 if not properly.  A large cannon would have an Accuracy of +1, Damage 60L and a range of 2000 and a minimum Strength of 30 if not properly mounted.  Cannons can also use grapeshot, which reduces range and damage to 1/5 of normal but can effect everyone within a sixty degree forward arc of the cannon if they fail to successfully dodge.  In this case, roll once to hit and everyone has to try to Dodge based on the successes of that roll.


A botch using firearms are bad, destroying the weapon and doing the base damage to the user.
 
I did guns here for Modernis Mundi.  These stats are using Power Combat--though, these are based more on modern firearms, than they are flintlocks or the like.  Mine it for ideas if you'd like.
 
Ok, from Obsidian Soul's suggestions, heres what I think I'm going to try.


Soft Lead Bullet: +2 damage.


Fractured/Wax Sealed Bullet: +4 damage, but doubles armor soak.  


Steel Bullet: +0 damage, but halves armor soak.  


Clay Bullet:+2 damage, but all damage is bashing.


Revoler: +1 ACC, 4L DAM, RANGE 20, RATE/CLIP 2/6, COST **R


Rifle: +4 ACC, 8L DAM, RANGE 100, RATE/CLIP 1/1, COST ***R


Dragon Wand: +3 ACC, 7L DAM, RANGE 50, RATE/CLIP 3/8, COST ***A


Dragon Staff: +5 ACC, 10L DAM, RANGE 300, RATE/CLIP 2/4, COST ***A
 
Firewands just seem so... bad... it all sounds good until you realise that waaaiiit... they're not firing a bullet... what's that?!  A gout of flame?  Yeah... that's gonna make an effective ranged weapon alright...
 
I always thought firewands were cool. I mean, things burn.


...anyway, maybe allowing Melee to be used with firewands would remedy the problem? Its range is only 10 yards anyway... I'm certain there are grand daiklaves or dire lances longer than 10 yards. However, it wouldn't be able to use Melee Charms like shock pikes (or was that it? Some weird Artifact from Lookshy.)
 
10 yards is 30 feet... If you're not used to our silly system of measuring, thats roughly equivalent to 9.5 meters... I really can't see someone running around with a sword roughly 5 men in length.  Hell thats a sword thats bigger than a warstrider could wield.  I personally don't have a problem with firedust weapons.  Yes weapons that shoot gouts of flame suck in real life.  Dragons-breath rounds are hardly effective.  But firedust is, as I see it, the "snow" of the firepole.  Well that might be a bad way to say it.  But the point is it works because its magic.  Gauntlets that throw thorns at people are stupid from an objective standpoint as well.  But they're magic so its fine.


That all being said, a clay bullet is a bad idea.  The bullet needs to hold together while being forced through a tube by a violent explosion.  


Finally, as soon as more than just officers had guns armor was retired.  Unless its either a) shot (as in dozens of pellets stuffed together, ala shotguns) or b) an expanding bullet (such as a hollow point) might be slowed down.  a little.  Halving the damage of anything other than those two types of bullets seems like a very unrealistic idea to me.  EXCEPT in the case of armor built by magical materials.  Then the entirety of the soak should be allowed, imo.  Although that seems to me it should be true as far as arrows go to.  The MM's are supposed to be nigh unbreakable but a measly steel-headed arrow can halve damage if its just a bolt?  Screw that.  Of course I've never had a player who's used archery as anything other than a secondary combat ability, so I've never revised this ruling in favor of game balance over quasi-realism.
 
I do realize that 10 meter long sword is ridiculous. But then batting a burning bolder aside with a twig is ridiculous also.


Eh, well, my point was that... what was it?
 
sssssz said:
I do realize that 10 meter long sword is ridiculous. But then batting a burning bolder aside with a twig is ridiculous also.
Eh, well, my point was that... what was it?
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Yes I'm just pointing out that there aren't 30 foot long swords in the game, not even warstrider grand daiklaves.
 
:(


Do I have to rewrite my character's weapon to fit in his hand?


Oh well. I remembered there were semi-ranged weapons that also uses Melee before. I think it's in the Lookshy book before. Maybe the same rule could apply for firewands too.
 
you're thinking of shock lanc.... oh I'm sorry Mr. Jordan, I meant shock pikes.  And yes thats one example, another example would be a charcoal march of the spiders charm that lets you throw invisible threads at someone... I cant remember the name and my book is not on hand... All I remember is that its after the form charm and before pattern destroying touch (the yozi slaying charm.)
 
Exalted is a game of coolness.  If something seems cool, do it.  If, to you and the rest of your circle, a normal sized man wielding a sword 5 times bigger than he is is cool, then do it.  To me, it seems silly, but that's only because it doesn't suit my gaming style or whatever.


In the end, whatever you get told here is opinion, even when it comes to the rules.  The ST and your circle are the be all and end all.  If you want guns in your game, ask your players, and if they're happy with it, slap some rules together for it.  Just make sure it doesn't unbalance the game in favour of one player, and if it does, change the rules to make things fair and fun.
 
Yes, the bloody armor of Exalted is too unrealistic.  Alright, since we are talking about historical accuracy, a bullet, due to its extreme speed and low profile, will ignore armor soak above 4B/4L, in addition to the effect of the type of bullet (steel bullets will ignore armor soak above 2L/2B while frag bullets will ignore armor soak above 8L/8B) unless the armor is made from one of the 5MM.  Natural and structural (object) soak should remain uneffected.


Since we are talking about muzzle-loaders, which have smoothbore barrels, a wax or clay bullet is completely acceptable, as it does not have rifling to destroy the bullet.  A Pistol should have a Rate of 1/4.  A Rifle should have a Rate of 1/6.  A Revolver should have a Rate of 6/30 (six shots and then 30 turns to reload).  A Cannon should have a Rate of 1/20.
 
Since we are talking about muzzle-loaders' date=' which have smoothbore barrels, a wax or clay bullet is completely acceptable, as it does not have rifling to destroy the bullet.  A Pistol should have a Rate of 1/4.  A Rifle should have a Rate of 1/6.  A Revolver should have a Rate of 6/30 (six shots and then 30 turns to reload).  A Cannon should have a Rate of 1/20.[/quote']
It does not take me a minute and a half to reload a revolver, and with a quick loader it doesn't even take me the ten (or so) seconds it takes me to reload a revolver one bullet at a time.  Now, I may be a quick draw and load,  but anyone in Exalted is going to be able to do it better than me.  It should take a turn, two at the max to reload a revolver.  Or like, give it a 5 turns to load and a Dexterity + Firearms (or whatever) roll with each success subtracting a turn needed to a minimum of one.


Anyway, it's Exalted.  It can be trimmed down and made acceptable.  No one's going to want to have a weapon that takes a minute to reload, after all.
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Well I guess weapons like that are just meant to be fired until out of ammo then holstered and hope that you've killed enough people to be able to finish off with another weapon?  Or at least that's probably how I'd run a game with guns in exalted if they took a long time to reload and the like.  Just use them as initial shock weapons; fire them into the enemy as you run into combat, holster them and finish off what's left with the Daiklave.
 
Yes but this is a muzzle-loaded revolver.  It would take you that long since you're going to need to put in each round invidually. 6/30 if you want to fully reload is just right.  Now, if you just load one round I'd say it'd take 3 or 4 turns.
 
Kajata said:
Just use them as initial shock weapons; fire them into the enemy as you run into combat, holster them and finish off what's left with the Daiklave.
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I got a better idea, put a blade on the gun like FinalFantasy and attack them with the unloaded pistol.  8)
 
Gunblades are historically a bad idea (yes, they were once tried, in the sixteenth century if I remember correctly).  You could make one, but I would reduce the Accuracy of both the gun and the blade by two each.  As for reload times, the modern gun technology allows people to reload five to ten times faster than in flintlock times.  If you want more information, I would suggest you look up flintlocks on Google.
 
Historically a bad idea, but this is a world that has the FMM.  


I stand by my use of Gunklaives, Gunmauls, Shothammers, and the rest.  They are just so much fun to put together.  All the fun of Equilibrium and Devil May Cry put together with Chinese wuxia flicktoons.


But again, the Long Second Age setting is a world that is a wee bit different than the BWB's.
 
Yeah, I'm not too worried about historical accuracy, given that this is a fictional game and thus has its own fiction history, seperate from the one you're worrying about.
 
Yeah, in a game where there are being composed entirely of magical materials, gods, demons and faeries that walk the earth, standing proudly alongside demi-gods, super-humans and any other number of magical beings that tend to wield weapons that are physically impossible to wield and would, from a technical standpoint, be crappy, even if you could, and walk around in suits of armour 3-5 times the size of a man, I don't think the issue of whether something would actually work IRL is really that major :P
 
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