Ghosts of Exalts

[Flagg]

I know that the hungry ghosts of Exalts are far more powerful than normal, but I was also under the impression that the higher souls were as well.


Imagine my surprise when I could find no mention of this in E:Ab. Did I make this up?  If not, what/where are the rules?


-S

 

[Exitium]

Same impression here, got it from my ST, the power follows the soul even in death.

 

[psychoph]

Huh I got the impression the higher soul automatically went into the wheel due to the exalted nature of the soul and the necessity to reincarnate.


I can see the higher soul being more powerful, but can't see it staying around.  Lower soul and hungry ghost was the only mention i remember in the E:Ab.

 

[Flagg]

Huh I got the impression the higher soul automatically went into the wheel due to the exalted nature of the soul and the necessity to reincarnate.

Apparently not, since otherwise we would have no Deathlords. Think about it.


-S

 

[psychoph]

I always got the impresison that the Solars were given the choice to serve the Primordials either right after death, or while the higher soul was imprisioned in the Sidereal containment unit.  And if they chose no then then went on to reincarnate when ever that happened.


My oither impression was that the Exalted Higher Soul was kind of imbedded in the Exalted Shard thus why memories of past lives continue on.

 

[Haku1]

From what I can see... the ghosts of the exalted... get higher attributes, abilities, virtues, willpower and whatever ox-bodies thay had in life (as natural health-levels), the essence trait is iffy, they might stay with their original or get downgraded. And they might have knowledege of their exalted charms and spells, but can't actually use them, but could train others in. Martial arts would be terresterial level only, only abyssals get celestials up to the form charm.


Beyond that...  you'd get a 'normal' ghost.

 

[Flagg]

Can you give a page ref for that, Haku?


-S

 

[Haku1]

Can you give a page ref for that, Haku?
-S

I'll do so once my insane 3 days of 12 hour shifts end.... >_<


This would be on monday or later....

 

[memesis]

This isn't canonical, but who cares.  It works in Gods of Eden, and it feels right as far as that game's theme goes.


I rule that the higher soul gets two benefits from Exaltation, even after death:


1. a practical knowledge of Essence manipulation, which it can adapt or use in any medium (like being a ghost with Arcanoi), and


2. an infusion of Essence itself, as a side effect of being bonded to the spark of Exaltation.


Mechanically, these effects will differ from manifestation to manifestation.  I'd give things like higher starting Essence for a 'new' ghost, XP breaks for Arcanoi, or even unique powers (probably purchased as Merits, maybe as new Charms), all based on my standard requirement:  "tell me a good story about this character concept".  For the older Solars, mechanics aren't quite as important.  Consider the following..


----------------------------------------------


The rain came down in heavy sheets, as though all the tears of Heaven were being shed at once.


In the decimated ruins of the city, a foreman, defiantly standing atop a half-decayed pillar of stone, bellowed orders. His jade armor was scarred and scorched in a dozen places; the dried blood of a demigod gave the white jade a sickly hue. He yelled, and yelled again, using the commanding power of his voice to direct his men. The thunder competed with him, but it was merely the undirected screech of the sky-gods; mere spirits could not compete with the voice of battlefield authority that the soldiers of the gods held.


Another voice could, and did. Its terrible cries threatened to drown out the desperate commander, as he wiped tears, blood and rain from his eyes again and again. His men, dressed in the six-yard-high, heavily-armored suits of Essence-imbued jade and steel, used their powerful proxies' hands to draw segments of marble into place. Every square inch of them was inscribed with powerful glyphs of warding. They would soon form a semicircular ring, but the soldier's attention wasn't focused on that. Instead, he stared in visible fear at what was at the center.


It was a great black darkness, a shadow with a voice, and a glowing golden ring upon its brow. It screeched, bellowing curses in a language so old the stones beneath its feet had been young when last it was commonly used. The angry spirit writhed and twisted, testing the boundaries of Essence formed by the five concentric rings marked into the ground around it. Channels cut into the earth and filled with sorcerers' blood anchored these wards, and they held fast in spite of the boundless fury of the wraith within. Near where it raged, the body it once occupied lay motionless on the stony ground.


"Halasen, get those rings in place!" screamed the commander, seeing one of the magicians wobbling in place at the outer edge of the ward. The dozen or more warstriders moved as quickly as those ponderous machines ever could, fearing what should happen if their protections failed. A minute passed, though it seemed to the commander that eternity had slipped by while he stood helpless. The ring came together. Another, smaller ring came down atop it, guided by the strider pilots' frantic efforts.


Inside the zone, those holding back the ward began to fall. One man collapsed entirely. A woman fell to her knees, her face strained. Blood vessels burst across her forehead and arms, but still she held. The others forced themselves to their limit, their reserves of endurance visibly aflame as Essence halos surmounted their bodies and the Caste Marks of the soldiers of the Shogunate rippled across their bloodied brows.


The last layer was set in place. The struggling guardians within, those who kept watch on the barriers of blood that confined the monster, knew the sacrifice they would be making. Each of them volunteered, willingly trading their lives for the safety of Creation, and each had a smile of relief on their face as they saw the dome of their eternal prison set into its place.


Three men rushed forward, then began chanting hurriedly. Their lips spoke evocations of the gods, whispering the secret names of earth and air and the celestial powers. They burned with the incandescent fire of their station as leaders of the armies of Heaven, and under their irresistable command the shape of marble twisted and changed, becoming diamond under their fingertips.


"Second stage wards, activate!" barked the commander. "Essence glyphs, charge!" His men, already weary from their exertions, staggered to comply. The rain beat down on them, its rapid beat on their armor keeping time with their rapid heartbeats. The structure shone with an inner light as magical power began to course through the cunningly-designed barriers.


"Five lives lost," murmured the commander to himself, again wiping his face clean of wetness, watching rainwater mingle with tears on his fingertips as he drew them away. "Only five, only five... " He stared at the sphere of diamond where the brave sorcerers now lay trapped. Sadness for his lost comrades mingled with a great wash of relief. "How much worse it could have been..." This momentary indulgence in pathos brought him back to the task at hand, and he again spoke, voice ringing confidently over the thunder above. No longer did it need to drown out the raging spirit they'd just contained. "We lost five good men and women! This shrine will be not only for the monster within, but also for them. Let's get to work!"

 

[Andrew02]

I always got the impresison that the Solars were given the choice to serve the Primordials either right after death, or while the higher soul was imprisioned in the Sidereal containment unit.  And if they chose no then then went on to reincarnate when ever that happened.
My oither impression was that the Exalted Higher Soul was kind of imbedded in the Exalted Shard thus why memories of past lives continue on.

What portions of the text gave you this impression?


Personally, I was under the impression that Exalts' higher souls were no different from other souls. Cult of the Illuminated gave me the impression that the memories a shard retained is due to some particular quality of Exalt shards, not any permanent relationship between a higher soul and a shard.

 

[Jakk Bey]

I thought this was covered in the Abyssals book? No, I can't give a page number, but I seem to recall it. Of course, that could be the gin kicking in...

 

[Flagg]

I always got the impresison that the Solars were given the choice to serve the Primordials either right after death, or while the higher soul was imprisioned in the Sidereal containment unit.  And if they chose no then then went on to reincarnate when ever that happened.
My oither impression was that the Exalted Higher Soul was kind of imbedded in the Exalted Shard thus why memories of past lives continue on.

You'd be mistaken on both counts. In fact, according to E:Ab, the shard is imbedded in the lower soul, thus making the hungry ghosts of Celestials much more powerful.


-S

 

[psychoph]

Stillborn what page of E:Ab is that on?  I wanted to make an exalted Hungry ghost in a tomb that my players are going to enter and I couldn't find the info .

 

[psychoph]

NVM found it E:AB pg 62 there is the statement  of

When an Exalt dies, her higher soul travels on to its apprpriate reward, with only traces of its Exaltation left behind.  The ghost of an Exalted has the same traits and Abilities she had in like, and her corpus is enhanced bu any Ox-Body Technique Charms she had.  The lower soul of an Exalted is far more powerful than her higher soul.  Swollen large from its role as repository of the Exaltation, it gains size and power, and often some measure of cunning and intellect.  

 

[Flagg]

Aha! That's the info I was looking for. Thanks!


-S

 

[psychoph]

I always got the impresison that the Solars were given the choice to serve the Primordials either right after death, or while the higher soul was imprisioned in the Sidereal containment unit.  And if they chose no then then went on to reincarnate when ever that happened.
My oither impression was that the Exalted Higher Soul was kind of imbedded in the Exalted Shard thus why memories of past lives continue on.

You'd be mistaken on both counts. In fact, according to E:Ab, the shard is imbedded in the lower soul, thus making the hungry ghosts of Celestials much more powerful.


-S

Not sure what part I was mistaken on, given my prior quote of the book i can see that i was incorrect about the hungry ghost.  But given this quote


E:AB pg 76

In Time, certain Malfeans approached the mad and anguished ghosts of the defeated Solars and offered them a bargain.  IN echange for their mnames and vvery destinies, they coudl enjoy immeasurable might as the all-powerful rulers of the Underworld and thke revenge on  all of Creation.  Most refused.  Ten accepted  immedeaitely, with the ghost who would become the First and FOrsaken Lion being the first.  Three others agreed follwoing their deaths ceanturies later.

That to me shows my interpretation of how the Deathlords came to be to be accurate.  The paragraph above states that hte Hungry ghosts were soothed with elaborate tombs and such and the higher souls were trapped in the Jad prison the solars built at the bottome of the Inland Sea, which is where the souls became angry and frustrated.

 

[Flagg]

That to me shows my interpretation of how the Deathlords came to be to be accurate.

No, you said the Deathlords were offered their bargain either immediately after death, or while trapped in the Jade Prison.


There are two problems with this:

• The text you just quoted makes it obvious that they were given this deal some time after death.
  
• Higher souls were not trapped in the Jade Prison. The Shards were. The higher souls of the Solars slain in the Usurpation either slipped into Lethe or stayed on as ghosts.

-S

 

[Andrew02]

The paragraph above states that hte Hungry ghosts were soothed with elaborate tombs and such and the higher souls were trapped in the Jad prison the solars built at the bottome of the Inland Sea, which is where the souls became angry and frustrated.

This is actually unclear because it seems like you are refering to the paragraph you cited.


But if the Solar's higher souls were trapped in the Jade Prison . . . why does it say this:

[QUOTE="Exalted: The Abyssals]To prevent Solars from passing into the cycle of reincarnation, certain Sidereal Exalted used Celestial Sorcerery and destiny-manipulation to coerce the Essences of the slain Solars into the Jade Prison . . ..
. . . [solar] higher souls haunted the Inland Sea in mute anger and frustration, gazing longingly at the weak apparition of the Jade Prison, forever out of their reach.

[/QUOTE]
It does not say the higher souls were placed into the Jade Prison. You've provided the evidence that Essences are not within the higher soul. Nothing indicates on that page higher souls were trapped within the Jade Prison.


That seems to indicate more to me that the Solars' higher souls were not trapped in the Jade Prison. After all, why would they gaze longingly at it if they were trapped within, and why would it be "forever out of their reach" if they were trapped inside? In addition, why are they staring at a weak apparition, if not that they are in the Underworld staring at the reflection of the Jade Prison in Creation?

 

[psychoph]

Andrew you are correct I just read what you posted, I was wrong stillborn.


Seems there are 3 parts to a solar, that clarifies things greatly for me.  


That brings up an interesting thought for me though.


The higher souls were the ones approached by the Malfeans then.  I would then think that the shards later ncarnated into people could be the same shards that were once in the Deathlords.  


So couldn't a reborn Solar have some of the memories of say Mask of Winters?  At least up to his death?  Since some memories are embeded into the shard.

 

[psychoph]

I have another question.  Ghosts can attack while dematerialized?  Or is that only with arconi that they can do that?


My idea is a hungry ghost of one of the players is trapped in a tomb by powerful Celestrial level sorcery.  The spell allows humans in and out but not the ghost.  I have one player with the ability to see and attack ghosts, but no one else can.  


My idea is to encorage people to consider spirit charms and sorcery.  I am pretty sure this ghost can be at least a match for the player solo.  I don't want to kill  the player so my idea is that he can run in and out as needed to put down the ghost, but i am wondering if on the first interaction if the ghost can just attack the character or if the ghost has to materialize to attakc the ghost there by allowing the rest of the solars to attack the ghost?

 

[Flagg]

Andrew you are correct I just read what you posted, I was wrong stillborn.

Remember, it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong... and an even bigger man to laugh at that man.

So couldn't a reborn Solar have some of the memories of say Mask of Winters?  At least up to his death?  Since some memories are embeded into the shard.

Possible. However, IIRC, the description of Lytek mentions that he "prunes" memories from the shards, leaving behind only the ones he's chosen. For various very good reasons,  he might have nipped most of the final days from the memories in Larquen Quen's shard.


Then again, maybe not.


-S

 

[Haku1]

Can you give a page ref for that, Haku?
-S

I've been going over the abyssal book... and you're correct... my statement is utter crap... ;;;

 

[memesis]

Possible. However, IIRC, the description of Lytek mentions that he "prunes" memories from the shards, leaving behind only the ones he's chosen. For various very good reasons,  he might have nipped most of the final days from the memories in Larquen Quen's shard.
Then again, maybe not.


-S

I've gotten great mileage out of this in my game:


Gilthane, Solar NPC from the West: "So, I hear you folks are looking for the true names of the Deathlords."


PCs: "Yes."


Gilthane: "And you think that they were former Solars?"


PCs: "Yeah, so we were told by the Emissary of Nexus."


Gilthane: "Well, I have one of their sparks."


PCs: "...."


Gilthane: "Feel like cooperating with me?"


PCs: "!"

 

[psychoph]

Memesis that was pretty much what I was thinking about.  If nothing else you could give the players dirt on what happened between MoW and WD such that they might be able to spark something earlier than MoW expected between the two of them.

 

[Persell]

psycoph, memesis, that's just cool. Nice, nice plot device.


But there's one big question you should answer in your series: how would the person with the shard know it was formerly MoW's? After all, his higher soul made the Malfean pact long after it was seperated from the shard.


Just off the top of my head, some memories of having said some things identical to some stuff MoW says, or possibly some sort of weird special effect when the Solar confronts MoW. Winters could be hunting the Solar and his deathknoght could let something slip. Or, well, Lytek and his plot stick made of pure light.


In the Abyssals campaign we're playing, we have Moray Darktide's anima flare every time he's in the presence of the Bodhisattva, and it gusts away from the Deathlord as if blown in a strong wind. All us deathknights find it quite crass, but he can't help it, and it makes great minds'-eye-candy.