Flow Like Blood Discussion From Sorcery Thread

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

This started on a different thread, found here.

They are when dodge only benefits defence, and melee allows attacking also. It's the classic argument: Dodge should be better at defending, being a solely defensive art.
As to the similarity to first edition: In second ed, it assumes that you split your actions, after a fashion, to provide defence. That's what a DV is, and the more actions you take/the more defences you must make, the lower your "pool" and the lower your resultant "DV". It's not quite that, but that's the spirit of the system.


In first edition, Flow Like Blood allowed you to roll full pool against anything and everything (Except undodgeables, I think). The second edition form of this effect is to eliminate all DV penalties to dodge, not just offer a respite from the common onslaught and the rare co-ordinated attack. It's not good enough, and it's certainly nowhere near FFBS.

Bold is for emphasis on my confusion.  So how is it that you see that multiple defenses equals multiple actions, when the only penalty due to defending multiple times is due to either onslaught or coordinated attacks? Both of which are dealt with by FLB.


If Bob the Solar gets attacked 800 times by 800 non-coordinated people, his defense doesnt change for any of them. And thats without FLB. With it, even if the attacks come from organized and well trained troops, or from one source, the multiple attacks doesnt affect his DV. The only standard penalty* that still applies to a user of FLB are ones from your own actions, such as a flurry attack.


*by "standard penalty" , I mean any penalty not caused by outside forces, such as environment or charm use.

 

[Samiel]

Here's the distinction:


In first edition, if you did not declare a defence, you were vulnerable to simple successes on attacks. In second ed, it assumes you declare defence in the parlance of first edition, but it allows you to do so as standard: You have the averaged successes of an assumed full pool defence against a given attack.


However, to represent the first edition requirement that you split your dice pools to defend and attack, every action has a DV penalty, representing the dice lost.


In first edition, this was not a concern with FLB, as one always had a full defensive pool, actions or no.


In second edition, you are still considered to have split your dice pools, because DV penalties are still a concern even with FLB.


The second edition charm only protects against specific instances of co-ordination, and does not provide any amelioration of one's own actions where it would in first edition. Given it's higher prerequisites and equal cost, and the fact that it is based on a skill solely designed for defence and not attack, this is poor, poor design.

 

[Samiel]

My argument in the other thread was thus:


Given that it's a purely defensive tree, access to the scene long should be at least as easy as the melee tree, and it should offer better defensive payoff. After all, you've specialised entirely on dodge and bought dodge 5 for this, and all dodge does is defend. You can't use it to attack like you could if you'd maxed on melee.


Therefore, the existing FLB can stay as it is for all I or anyone should care: Instead there is a short new set out of Shadow Over Water, firstly composed of the dodge equivelent of Fivefold BUlwark stance: an action-long DV refresher that keeps the Dodge DV full. Then comes the scene-long equivelent of the original Flow Like Blood, which keeps the Dodge DV full for the entire scene, which is not only the exact translation of the original into second edition, but the right and just continuation of a purely defensive art.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

But neither Melee or Martial Arts have defensive charms that eliminate action based DV penalties, so why should Dodge get one? If you change this for Dodge, I'd suggest changing it for Melee too. Martial Arts too I suppose, though I dont believe it had a charm similar to FFB or FLB in 1E.


I can see your point about Dodge being defensive only and thus the requirements seem a bit high, but you keep under valuing the benefit of the coordinationg attacks. I feel thats a sufficiently higher benefit than what FFB gives to warrant the higher prereq costs.

 

[memesis]

The second edition charm only protects against specific instances of co-ordination, and does not provide any amelioration of one's own actions where it would in first edition. Given it's higher prerequisites and equal cost, and the fact that it is based on a skill solely designed for defence and not attack, this is poor, poor design.

The hidden assumption is:  "Negating defense penalties for your own actions is worth more than negating defense penalties imposed on you by organized groups of fighters".


Any group of opponents above the level of drunken tavern brawlers will probably try to coordinate - it's the logical thing to do.  The times where it wouldn't happen are those where a commander isn't present.  For example, you run into a handful of guards wandering the streets and they recognize you as a wanted criminal.


The Wyld Hunt will coordinate.  Mortal armies will coordinate.  Packs of Outcaste soldiers, Lookshy veterans, or Lunars and their beastman friends will coordinate.  And when they do so, it is not under your control.


You CAN, however, time your own actions such that your DV penalty is manageable.  You are in full control of how and when you attack.


There are a class of Charms which negate your defense penalties for taking several actions.  They are the various Extra Action Charms.  For preventing the penalties that you don't control the timing of, Flow Like Blood does the job.

 

[Samiel]

But neither Melee or Martial Arts have defensive charms that eliminate action based DV penalties, so why should Dodge get one? If you change this for Dodge, I'd suggest changing it for Melee too. Martial Arts too I suppose, though I dont believe it had a charm similar to FFB or FLB in 1E.

But Melee does: Fivefold Bulwark Stance allows one to ignore one point's worth of DV penalty out of every action. Thus, a flurry of DV -1 actions has no DV penalty at all. In addition, it protects against onslaught.


That is far more useful than protecting against onslaught and co-ordinated.

I can see your point about Dodge being defensive only and thus the requirements seem a bit high, but you keep under valuing the benefit of the coordinationg attacks. I feel thats a sufficiently higher benefit than what FFB gives to warrant the higher prereq costs.

I understand how useful co-ordinated attacks are, but as an ST I have used them and seen them, and they are rarely executed correctly by anyone but DBs or other major antagonists. As a feature of a general defence charm, they don't measure up to effective free discounts for DV penalties.


In effect, shortening the tree as I've outlined gives a tree similar to the Melee defence tree. They thus have similar prerequisites and essence requirements and costs. After that, the discrepancy in power stems from their very themes, that Dodge should be better than Parry as Dodge can only dodge, whereas parry can be used for attacks too, a critical edge and advantage.


I've woed the downplay of dodge in Exalted since first edition, and though second edition is an improvement on the first ed charms (The perfect defence being perfect, for example, rather than just sort-of-perfect as in first ed, and the discount on dodge charms), it's still there: The dodge Scenelong simply isn't as good by any stretch or measure as the Melee one, and is harder to buy in the first place. Hell, 2E Flow Like Blood is simple, and FFBS is Reflexive. Where's the justice in that?


Therefore I again propose only what's fair: take the accepted and useful first ed charm, and port it directly into second ed, where most charms are better anyway: An alternate scenelong on Shadow Over Water that offers scenelong respite from normal DV penalties, including co-ordination, onslaught and action penalties.


I would propose rescuing Flow Like Blood, but that would require such drastic action (I've tried!) that it's easier to leave the tree alone and add another branch.


However, if you did want a fixed tree, then it would be constructed thus:


Remove 2E FLB. Move Reflex Sidestep to the top, next to Shadow Over Water, and have the New FLB placed with those two as prerequisites: The refresher charm and the reflexive dodge charm, the two perfect prerequisites.


If you still felt FLB was too powerful as I propose it, then put an action-long form of it in there, but that's the kind of speedbump that people decry, and when someone's maxed out on a purely defensive art, why should they be denied a decent defence when they could have instead bought an attacking art and gotten a better defence to boot? Why have dodge on the sheet at all?

 

[Samiel]

The hidden assumption is:  "Negating defense penalties for your own actions is worth more than negating defense penalties imposed on you by organized groups of fighters".
(Snipped for brevity)


There are a class of Charms which negate your defense penalties for taking several actions.  They are the various Extra Action Charms.  For preventing the penalties that you don't control the timing of, Flow Like Blood does the job.

On these notes, I'd like to point out that FFBS outstrips FLB on both counts: With FFBS you can take multiple actions without DV penalties, effectively a scenelong defence against the DV penalty for attacking as many times as your rate allows each action.


With FLB, you are only defended against the onslaught penalty, so if you do anything but move or guard, your defence drops. It's a double-whammy difference: With melee, you can attack because that skill allows it. You can also attack without a DV penalty with the scenelong. With Dodge, you can't attack at all. And if you try with another skill, you can't maintain your dodge defence while doing so.


As noted though, as an ST I've used co-ordinated attacks with elite mortals, and found that one of two things happens: The co-ordinater is killed swiftly before the attack happens, or the attackers being co-ordinated are killed before they can avail of the co-ordination.


So it comes down to the argument that only the truest elite of the elite, or exalts, can benefit from co-ordination. Which makes the co-ordination defence of Flow Like Blood, however appropriate to it's theme, very weak in comparison to the free attacking of FFBS, where you can kill all of your attackers while maintaining a full defence, and only the odd group of highly integrated powerful creatures can get around your defence, rather than anyone at all if you attack.

 

[Persell]

Well, there are several house rules you could use to fix this.  You could say that FFBS protects against coordination and FLB protects against onslaught, switching them.  Alternatively, you could say that FLB protects against both onslaught and coordination.  That makes more sense to me since it's a charm from a purely defensive Ability - they should defend against both.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

What I assume you mean is to change any reference to "onslaught" below to "-1 DV penalty per action" since both charms already get defense against onslaught.

Well, there are several house rules you could use to fix this.  You could say that FFBS protects against coordination and FLB protects against onslaught, switching them.  Alternatively, you could say that FLB protects against both onslaught and coordination.  That makes more sense to me since it's a charm from a purely defensive Ability - they should defend against both.

 

[SagaciousAscendingHero]

On these notes, I'd like to point out that FFBS outstrips FLB on both counts: With FFBS you can take multiple actions without DV penalties, effectively a scenelong defence against the DV penalty for attacking as many times as your rate allows each action.
With FLB, you are only defended against the onslaught penalty, so if you do anything but move or guard, your defence drops. It's a double-whammy difference: With melee, you can attack because that skill allows it. You can also attack without a DV penalty with the scenelong. With Dodge, you can't attack at all. And if you try with another skill, you can't maintain your dodge defence while doing so.

FFB specifically says action, not attack, so as I understood it, a flurry only counts as one action for FFB. If you have evidence other wise, I would be inclinded to change my opinion on this debate.

 

[Brother Raven]

Well, there are several house rules you could use to fix this.......... Alternatively, you could say that FLB protects against both onslaught and coordination.  That makes more sense to me since it's a charm from a purely defensive Ability - they should defend against both.

I had an immediate gut-reaction about FFBS being better than FLB when I read them and so I've houseruled that FLB does everything FFBS does, plus defends against co-ordinated attacks, because its a purely defensive ability.


So far my group's managed to avoid any combat since we converted the 2ed but I'm hoping that this will work out.


Hurrah, finally got round to making my first post

 

[memesis]

With FFBS you can take multiple actions without DV penalties

As mentioned in the thread, a flurry is your action, and the DV penalty negation applies to actions - you're still at a penalty if you flurry, just not as much of one.

As noted though, as an ST I've used co-ordinated attacks with elite mortals, and found that one of two things happens: The co-ordinater is killed swiftly before the attack happens, or the attackers being co-ordinated are killed before they can avail of the co-ordination.

Interesting.  I've set up sample combats where a number of commanders were barking orders to their small squads of archers, keeping well away from the player characters, and multiple coordinated attacks were hitting just fine.  The key takeaways I got from this experiment were:


* Your commanders are going to be targeted by Exalts.  Put them in hard-to-reach places, or behind heavy cover.  Similarly, Coordinating archers gives the most bang for your buck unless their opponents are thrown/archery monkeys or extremely nimble.


* If they are fighting Exalts, they are going to want to wear the heaviest armor they can, fight with shields, and have specialties in their chosen weapons.


* Heroic mortals or non-Hunt Dragon-Blooded who are facing Celestials will be channeling Virtues on every chance they get, probably (in this case) boosting parry DV.  This is the fight of their lifetime.


* It's hard for a single starting Celestial to one-shot a well-armored, capable heroic mortal unless he is a combat monster, using a Combo, or otherwise burning a fair amount of Essence.


* Several small coordinated units are more effective than one big coordinated unit.

 

[Persell]

I had an immediate gut-reaction about FFBS being better than FLB when I read them and so I've houseruled that FLB does everything FFBS does' date=' plus defends against co-ordinated attacks, because its a purely defensive ability.[/quote']
Yeah, that's what I meant.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

As mentioned in the thread, a flurry is your action, and the DV penalty negation applies to actions - you're still at a penalty if you flurry, just not as much of one

This question has been answered by the charm author and developers. FFBS does indeed effect each individual action in a flurry. So if all you're actions in a flurry only have DV penalties of -1 you suffer no DV penalty at all.

 

[memesis]

As mentioned in the thread, a flurry is your action, and the DV penalty negation applies to actions - you're still at a penalty if you flurry, just not as much of one

This question has been answered by the charm author and developers. FFBS does indeed effect each individual action in a flurry. So if all you're actions in a flurry only have DV penalties of -1 you suffer no DV penalty at all.

Interesting.  I concede the point, but do you have a reference I can read?

 

[MrMephistopheles]

http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/wiki.pl?Th ... warkStance

 

[Samiel]

To think I just spent 10 minutes finding it because I didn't realise you'd already done! Thanks.


Indeed, FFBS allows you to almost ignore DV penalties already, as can be seen. So it's not such a step up for a purely defensive charm to finish the deal and return to the first ed form: Ignore them outright. Unless charms such as Abyssal DV-eroding ones affect you, you have a full DV against each attack.


It's not unreasonable with the new tree I proposed, with FLB being as easy to get as FFBS. With the old 2E tree in the book, it would be criminal not to allow it.

 

[Persell]

So let me get this straight - you want Flow Like Blood to reduce the DV penalty a character incurs for his flurry, which is what Fivefold Bulwark Stance does?

 

[Kremlin KOA]

basiucally


because otherwise, dodge is too little bang for the buck

 

[Persell]

But I can see the reason why they don't, because flurries are usually an offensive action.  That's why they place it with Melee and give it to FFBS.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

then balance it this way alohaha


how manyu freebie points to buy ffbs, melee excelency combo and 5 melee


vs how many to get FLB, melee excelency, dodge excellency, a combo of those three and 5 each in dodge and melee


yet flb does less


why?

 

[Persell]

I don't have a proposal for balancing it, I'm just saying I see why they've done it that way.  Melee is offensive so it helps in attacking by reducing the DV penalties to flurries.  Dodge is defensive so it helps in defending by countering coordination penalties.

 

[Kremlin KOA]

so why take dodge?

 

[Persell]

Besides onslaught, coordination, and flurries, is there anything else that subtracts from DV?  Have FLB reduce those penalties instead.


Or you could have FFBS reduce the the onslaught and flurry penalties applied to PDV and FLB reduce the onslaught, coordination, and flurry penalties applied to DDV.  That would be quite helpful to those fighters who don't rely on melee weapons, such as archers and throwers who generally rely on Dodge and give FLB a little extra than FFBS.

 

[Flagg]

Besides onslaught, coordination, and flurries, is there anything else that subtracts from DV?  Have FLB reduce those penalties instead.

Wound penalties.


-S