Fists of Iron Technique

[Flagg]

Core book, p242


This Charm adds +1 accuracy, +2 damage, and makes the attack lethal.


My question is, does this +1 count towards the maximum number of dice that can be added by Charms, or is a +1 to accuracy just a mechanical modifier?


The main reason it's important is that if a character uses the 2nd Martial Arts Excellency in a combo with this, and has an even numbered Dex+MA pool, he would have to forgo buying one success with the Excellency in exchange for that +1 die. That would be lame.


What say you?

 

[cyl]

I think it counts, like One Weapon Two Blows would also count.


There's a cap on the magic bonuses you can achieve with charms, if a charm gives you +1DV, then you loose a corresponding number on your excellency potential. I think the logic applies to FoIT.


Which makes me wonder... how does the capping work while you can achieve a greater bonus than you cap allows you to ?


Take Ebon Shadow form for example, or Iron Arm Block, they give a certain amount of DV boost, but since their bonus relies on a specific trait, it may be higher than the capping.


ESF with essence 6 while you have Dex 4 and MA 5... you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Essence, so +6


IAB with MA 6 while you have Dex 4 MA 6 you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Martial Arts, so +6.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

On the original topic, I disagree. The charm specifically names the Accuracy of the weapon. While a straight read of the rules suggest that is still a die added by a Charm, the distinction feels like one of those "common sense interpretation" thingies that are never as clear as the authors think they are.


Straight +DV seems more like adding automatic successes than dice, and p185 of the core rulebook says that automatic successes are not considered dice added by charms. (The Second Excellencies specifically amend themselves to conform to the limit.)


You want to give yourself a headache? Take a look at Defense of Shining Joy, a Sidereal charm on p147 of their Manuel. Adds Performance to Dodge for calculating DVs and allows Excellencies to boost the value further, but doesn't specifically change any of the dice maximums. Common sense butts heads again!

 

[Arthur]

I agree with Lord-Kamina. It boosts the attack stats, it doesn't directly give you attack dice.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Because both attacks alter the Accuracy values of the attack, no they do not effect die cap any more than the Solar or Abyssal weapon creating Melee charm impacts the die cap.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

Take Ebon Shadow form for example, or Iron Arm Block, they give a certain amount of DV boost, but since their bonus relies on a specific trait, it may be higher than the capping.
ESF with essence 6 while you have Dex 4 and MA 5... you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Essence, so +6


IAB with MA 6 while you have Dex 4 MA 6 you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Martial Arts, so +6.

You'll only get your maximum achievable DV boost, even if that isn't the total boost.

You want to give yourself a headache? Take a look at Defense of Shining Joy, a Sidereal charm on p147 of their Manuel. Adds Performance to Dodge for calculating DVs and allows Excellencies to boost the value further, but doesn't specifically change any of the dice maximums. Common sense butts heads again!

DoSJ really isn't that confusing. It still hits the DV cap. The confusing part is that it is still currently unclear what that cap is because of the author flub on Sidereal Excellencies.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

Take Ebon Shadow form for example, or Iron Arm Block, they give a certain amount of DV boost, but since their bonus relies on a specific trait, it may be higher than the capping.
ESF with essence 6 while you have Dex 4 and MA 5... you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Essence, so +6


IAB with MA 6 while you have Dex 4 MA 6 you're limited to +5DV but the charm states you add Martial Arts, so +6.

You'll only get your maximum achievable DV boost, even if that isn't the total boost.

You want to give yourself a headache? Take a look at Defense of Shining Joy, a Sidereal charm on p147 of their Manuel. Adds Performance to Dodge for calculating DVs and allows Excellencies to boost the value further, but doesn't specifically change any of the dice maximums. Common sense butts heads again!

DoSJ really isn't that confusing. It still hits the DV cap. The confusing part is that it is still currently unclear what that cap is because of the author flub on Sidereal Excellencies.

OK, see, my interpretation is the exact opposite of yours. The first two are not adding to the dicepool to add to the DV, they are adding successes to the DV, which are not dice added by charms. The Sidereal charm allows Excellencies to add further, implicitly exempting the Performance dots from the cap limit. And you're right, it's not confusing at all.


Until two people who read the rules in completely different ways realize how much the limits of language suck.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

OK, see, my interpretation is the exact opposite of yours. The first two are not adding to the dicepool to add to the DV, they are adding successes to the DV, which are not dice added by charms

What are you referring to here, because it is a bit unclear.


If you are talking about charms that add directly to DV, then yes, they are restricted by the DV cap. Check out the question about Defense from Anathema Technique. Direct DV adding charms are limited by cap.

The Sidereal charm allows Excellencies to add further, implicitly exempting the Performance dots from the cap limit. And you're right, it's not confusing at all.

DoSJ reads as follows: "For the rest of the scene, the character adds her Performance score to her Dodge in calculating Dodge Defense Value."


So before adding extra stuff from artifacts, etc. You have Dexterity+Dodge+Performance+Essence+relevant Specialities /2.


It just adds to your die pool, and is subject to die cap. The Charm also gives you more capability as far as what Ability you can use to add to your DDV. This is patently clear.


As I said before, the currect confusion is because the Excellencies section for the Sidereals book makes it unclear what DV cap should be, because of the 2nd Excellency difference for Sidereals, and how the Fateful Excellency interacts with said cap when used to double DV.

 

[wordman]

Back when I was trying to categorize charm effects to get a better handle on balance, I considered the difference between the two interpretations of this charm as a "pool adding" effect (one that is limited by dice pools) vs. a "pool augmenting" effect (one that is not). Naturally, pool augmenters are (or, at least, can be) more powerful.


Since there are not too many of these charms, I've always treated the use of "Accuracy" here to mean that they intentionally ignore pool limits. This makes Five-Dragon Form slightly better, for example, particularly for terrestrials.


There is really not a lot of evidence either way for inferring what the intent was. I vaguely remember comparing First and Second Edition charms and noticing that, of the charms that added to Accuracy in First Edition, some had their text altered to add dice instead and some did not, for whatever that is worth.


There is a variation of this question asked on the official wiki's errata page, but it hasn't been answered yet. Historically, these errata answers always seem to go exactly opposite of how I think they should go, so the answer WW gives will probably say that charm limits apply. It will also, of course, be phrased in a way that actually makes things more confusing.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

There has been some annoying errata. However, in regards to charms that generate types of attacks(the Solar,Abyssal, DB weapon creating charms,the Silver Claws charm for Lunars) and charms that alter the actual stats of an attack, the answer has been universal.

 

[wordman]

So universal that, evidently, there is no need to repeat it here.

 

[MrMephistopheles]

So universal that, evidently, there is no need to repeat it here.

Or it might have to do with the fact that the Exalted White Wolf Wiki is so piss poor, as has been the effort for non errata questions that have been answered not getting much word of mouth.

 

[Ryvaken Tadrya]

What are you referring to here, because it is a bit unclear.

I refer to exactly what I say here. Almost everything that you have said about the relationships between various charms and dice pool limits ranges between the amusingly quaint and the patently absurd, with very little falling into the range of reasonable, appropriate, or even slightly correct. That you are clearly convinced of your own correctness likewise ranges from amusing to infuriating. (This second part is in regards to the self-evidently wide range of possible interpretations of the rules as written, rather than your interpretation specifically).

 

[Haku1]

Flagg, personally, I roll with the +1 Accuracy = +1 to the accuracy of the weapon and thus it does NOT affect the die-adder cap.


Otherwise, you run into situations where Glorious Solar Saber has a decent amount of accuracy, but it counts towards the die-adder limit as they "provide die" for an attack. Which makes absolutely no sense.


So, just go with bonuses that adjust accuracy or defense have no effect on die-adder cap.

 

[Jeppe]

Agreeing with the masses: +1 accuracy doesn't count towards the dice limit.

 

[cyl]

Flagg, personally, I roll with the +1 Accuracy = +1 to the accuracy of the weapon and thus it does NOT affect the die-adder cap.
Otherwise, you run into situations where Glorious Solar Saber has a decent amount of accuracy, but it counts towards the die-adder limit as they "provide die" for an attack. Which makes absolutely no sense.


So, just go with bonuses that adjust accuracy or defense have no effect on die-adder cap.

Well, revising the corebook, OWTB explicitely states it boosts the accuracy of a weapon, so I'm okay it doesn't count neither as a dice adder nor for the cap.


BUT FoIT explicitely states it boosts the Accuracy and damage of an attack, so wether you're armed or not, wether you're kicking or punching, it gives +1.


Accuracy is also the "attack pool", not just the equipment bonus of the weapon, I think in this particular case, considering the bonus applies to all form of attacks (kick, punch, and attacking with a weapon) it counts as a dice adder and reduces the maximum obtained by magic.

 

[Haku1]

So, Cyl... I see you favor the fact that Glorious Solar Saber is a martial arts charm in disguise in the middle of melee?


Really... the bonuses that the essence weapon gives you for Accuracy, Damage, Defense are... y'know just like FoIT in that they're the attack, damage and defense "pool". They boost the ability of a solar.


So, now... a solar with a super massive accurate weapon formed of essence has a limited die-adder cap thanks to the weapon also providing most of the "attack pool".

 

[cyl]

So, Cyl... I see you favor the fact that Glorious Solar Saber is a martial arts charm in disguise in the middle of melee?
Really... the bonuses that the essence weapon gives you for Accuracy, Damage, Defense are... y'know just like FoIT in that they're the attack, damage and defense "pool". They boost the ability of a solar.


So, now... a solar with a super massive accurate weapon formed of essence has a limited die-adder cap thanks to the weapon also providing most of the "attack pool".

Well, to calculte the Accuracy/Defense pools, you need to use dex+ability+non magic bonus+ magic bonus.


Magic bonuses are limited to attribute+ability. So if you use GSS to create weapons, there are 2 interpretations possible:


1/ this is a charm, the weapon's traits count as magic bonus instead of non magic


2/ this is a charm that articially create a weapon, its traits are not considered magic bonus.


Since it is a melee charm and it has only one possible use (attacking with a melee weapon) and considering the speed/ cost I always go with option 2/.


Note that I revised this charm so you could use it on an already existing weapon to boost it, therefore considering the bonuses as magic

 

[Haku1]

So.. enhancing a weapon (natural or otherwise) in your eyes is the same as die-adding.


Yes, or no.

 

[cyl]

Enhancing a weapon does not count as magic die enhancing.


Enhancing an action using that weapon (attack or defense) does.


See my point ?


OWTB enhances the weapon, FoIT enhances the attack.

 

[Haku1]

But what I'm saying is that they both enhance the same thing, accuracy. Which is added seperately from the die-adding you might have with excellencies.

The Solar infuses her hands with the strength of her Essence and strikes like the Unconquered Sun. This Charm enhances an unarmed Martial Arts attack, improving its Accuracy by one and its Damage by two and making its damage lethal. The Solar can parry lethal hand-to-hand attacks without a stunt until his next action.

And the charm you guys seem obssess with comparing FoIT with.

The Solar warrior is as swift as the first rays of dawn. This Charm adds one to the Rate and one to the Accuracy of his weapon until his next action.

They BOTH add to the accuracy. You can NOT have one go above the die-adding limit "because it doesn't add to the damage and is thus weaker", and the other be counted in the die-adding limitation, because it enhances the damage bonus. It's either they both are considered die-adder effects, or they both aren't.


Also note that these two charms are NOT the only ones with stat-enhancements. Not adding die, but enhancing of stats. You boost the equipment (assume that the solar hero style user is using a style weapon) you're using, and that in turn allows you to hit better.

 

[wordman]

As a note here, both punches and kicks do have listed Accuracy traits. They are a "weapon" in the sense that they have ratings in the traits that measure "things you attack with". Thus, anything that modifies one of those traits can be reasonably assumed affect punches and kicks just as well as other things with similar traits.

 

[cyl]

I read this


- The Solar infuses her hands with the strength of her Essence and strikes like the Unconquered Sun. This Charm enhances an unarmed Martial Arts attack, improving its Accuracy by one and its Damage


- This Charm adds one to the Rate and one to the Accuracy of his weapon until his next action.


Accuracy is both the total attack pool and the trait that's called Acc in a weapon stats.


Acc should be called like "accuracy bonus", because in the end that's what it is.

Accuracy: This value is added to or substracted from the character's total (attribute+ability) when rolling for attacks using the weapon.

And even if it's mechanically the same thing to add +1 to a weapon or to an action, the mechanics may not be the same. One is not limited by magic capping, the other is.


There is enough space for reasonable doubt for me to make a distinction.


Try to apply the same reasoning to the Def trait of a weapon and NOT the DV, mechanically it has the same results, from a capping point of view, it differs.


I have an example in mind: SotM Deadly Starmetal Offensive, gives speed 3 acc+3, dmg+7L def + 4 Rate 3 stats to unarmed attacks.


Does the +4 counts as a magic bonus towards the cap ? (I mean it's a +2-3DV)


I'd say yes since the whole attack is magically enhanced.


But my problem may come from the distinction between "weapon" and "unarmed attack" that may exist only in my mind

 

[Haku1]

The charm does not have the touch keyword.

 

[cyl]

What do you mean by that ?