[Emperors of the Fading Suns] [Emperors of the Fading Suns] OOC Thread

[WlfSamurai]

I think Rhapsody is going to hang with Siham all the time. Too much fun.

 

[JayTee]

Enemies of Creation Explode. Forever~

 

[CrazyIvan]

Does the Behemoth in Cross have Shaping Defenses?

I like where your head's at.

 

[JayTee]

I'm curious, what do people think I plan to do?

 

[WlfSamurai]

Does it matter? That question begs irreparable action. Am I wrong? I like it.

 

[JayTee]

Step 1: Steal 5 dot Hearthstone from the Factory Cathedral on our way back to Cross.


Step 1B: Demand a 5 Dot Hearthstone from the Dragon-Blooded whom we helped on our way back to Cross.


Step 2: Stick Hearthstone in to Hand of the Maker.


Step 3: Wyld Shape away the Behemoth's sickness.


Step 4: Rebuild my Genesis lab and Factory Cathedral


Step 5-8: ?????


Step 9: Become god, in the Abrahamic sense.


Step 10: Fix everything. Eve-ry-thing.

 

[Kacie]

@CrazyIvan : Is it okay to wield Fangs as a Deathbadger scythe in mass combat? If you're still looking over rules/numbers, I can wait.

 

[CrazyIvan]

You can throw shit in its tracks until even a tank can't move.
Then you can overturn it, and then its armour won't help.

And in the meantime, it has run a fuck ton of you over, squishing you into something resembling jelly. Seriously, without anti-armor weapons, armor just wins in modern combat. There's no real examples of a "mob" ever managing to do a number on an tank without weaponry. And many, many examples of poorly armed rabble getting well and truly dead.


And if they have weaponry, that's perfectly well represented by being able to get through the armor.

Also, a leader with a Grand Scythe is more useful than one bare-handed.

I don't dispute this. But you know what should be more useful than a leader with a Grand Scythe? A leader with a Warstrider and a Warstrider Grand Scythe. Or a leader the size of a primordial - Flicker or Fangs could, with a bit more Essence, end up being something that could go Kaiju a Kaiju with Isidoros. Right now it just seems like the best way to "win" in Mass combat is to load up on stats, then sit at the back on a horse and direct things.


That just doesn't feel like Exalted to me.


I'm not necessarily saying it has to change, or that I know what that change is, but I feel like Cunning Fangs going from a fairly petite woman in a dress to an 18 foot tall, Moonsilver war machine should matter beyond "Well, you're stronger now". Because the strength aspect of a Warstrider isn't actually the interesting part - it's the access to both ruinously powerful weapons and an armor value close to twice that of the best non-Warstrider armor in the game. Both of which are abstracted away in the Mass Combat system as it's written.


TLR: It's not broken, it's just both a foreign rule set I haven't wrapped my head around *and* doesn't seem to match Exalted thematically, so I'm not at all confident any decision I end up making isn't laughably bad.

 

[CrazyIvan]

@CrazyIvan : Is it okay to wield Fangs as a Deathbadger scythe in mass combat? If you're still looking over rules/numbers, I can wait.

Yeah, feel free to equip your Moonsilver Deathbadger and go to town

 

[cyl]

Yeah, feel free to equip your Moonsilver Deathbadger and go to town

If that ain't love then I don't know what love is !

 

[cyl]

Step 1: Steal 5 dot Hearthstone from the Factory Cathedral on our way back to Cross.
Step 1B: Demand a 5 Dot Hearthstone from the Dragon-Blooded whom we helped on our way back to Cross.


Step 2: Stick Hearthstone in to Hand of the Maker.


Step 3: Wyld Shape away the Behemoth's sickness.


Step 4: Rebuild my Genesis lab and Factory Cathedral


Step 5-8: ?????


Step 9: Become god, in the Abrahamic sense.


Step 10: Fix everything. Eve-ry-thing.

Fear him if you dare !

 

[xarvh]

And in the meantime, it has run a fuck ton of you over, squishing you into something resembling jelly.

In fact the Warstrider can still deal helluva damage.

Seriously, without anti-armor weapons, armor just wins in modern combat. There's no real examples of a "mob" ever managing to do a number on an tank without weaponry. And many, many examples of poorly armed rabble getting well and truly dead.

Armour is not absolute, there are always points that are not covered.


And in mechanical terms, it is just an abstraction.


Also, this is no modern combat and a warstrider is no tank.

I don't dispute this. But you know what should be more useful than a leader with a Grand Scythe? A leader with a Warstrider and a Warstrider Grand Scythe.

Which would make the troops it leads completely irrelevant. No need for Mass Combat then.


Also, if you are in a warstrider, I can't see you leading troops.


As I said, I am not comfortable myself with ignoring armor entirely, this is why I suggested to have it halved instead.

 

[CrazyIvan]

Also, if you are in a warstrider, I can't see you leading troops.

I'd argue Exalted combat *is* largely making the non-exalted troops you lead irrelevant. That was the point of their existence.


Also:


"Follow the towering Moonsilver colossus, kill whatever it overlooks. If you lose sight of it, follow the screaming."


Like I said, I don't have a problem with the Mass Combat rules as written, I'm just pretty sure that I'm never going to really grasp them.

 

[xarvh]

I'd argue Exalted combat *is* largely making the non-exalted troops you lead irrelevant. That was the point of their existence.

If they are irrelevant, why have a Mass Combat at all?


Let's ignore them and stick to normal combat, that's already overly complicated as it is.


Let's keep the battle just as a background while the heroes fight.

"Follow the towering Moonsilver colossus, kill whatever it overlooks. If you lose sight of it, follow the screaming."

Whoever is giving such an order, is not in the warstrider...

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the Mass Combat rules as written, I'm just pretty sure that I'm never going to really grasp them.

This might be a problem.


Do you want to switch back to vanilla mass combat?

 

[Feantari]

Oy, I've dug into the mass combat stuffs before, I'll try to carve time to take a look at it after work sometime this week. It may be possible to make a few minor tweaks to handle things like warstriders in a way that feels hefty enough, rather than just scrap the whole system.

 

[CrazyIvan]

If they are irrelevant, why have a Mass Combat at all?
Let's ignore them and stick to normal combat, that's already overly complicated as it is.


Let's keep the battle just as a background while the heroes fight.

Honestly, that would actually be my preference. A few pivotal scenes, with the armies as set dressing while the heroes fight. If you want to do mortal-on-mortal action, a few key moments (trying to take a gatehouse, secure a bridge, etc.) with a squad of Malek's Tiger Warriors vs. the Mask's best War Ghosts feels like it would be less mechanically awkward.


Because when it comes down to it, if one side has Solars/Abyssals/Deathlords/High Essence Lunars and the other side's equivalents are dead? It's really best they break and run now.

Whoever is giving such an order, is not in the warstrider...

It is if its Fangs the second before she casts God Forged Champion of War.

 

[WlfSamurai]

One last question @cyl. Is this the part where I go in hard? Or were we still stealth-ing it?

 

[Kacie]

Regarding Mass Combat - I'm thinking of how they handle Helm's Deep in the Two Towers. There's no doubt the regular standing army is important, but there's also no doubt that our heroes are pivotal. (Even before the dwarf tossing.)


The army is there to protect against other armies. An Exalt can rout an army, but unless they're specialized in that, by the time they beat off the army on one wall, the army on the other city wall may be through the gates and ransacking the city.


Army counters army, army led by an Exalt with War trumps army without an Exalt, and Exalts as solo units are dangerous wild cards, the pivot points. Exalts not busy leading army units do the stuff you see in the movies - defend the gate (Helm's Deep), lead a small charge on the siege engines (goal: no more siege damaging the walls), and other critical battle points. The quality of your troops matters when they're up against the enemy's troops, but unless an Exalt has no scene longs and is out of essence, the Exalt is going to rip through the unit. --and because an Exalt can rip through a unit, this is why your fellow Exalted act as the special forces squad and try to bring down the opposing Exalts as fast as possible. Do that, and your odds of victory just shot up dramatically.


Warstriders end up being the bigger version of the Exalted, although some Exalted can and do eat War-striders for breakfast.


I like the idea of one Exalt leading the war actions, and the rest being the special forces squad, etc.


And if I were building my own high magi-tech warstrider, I would totally build in a bull-horn or loudspeakers, but it's possible the mad genius who built the surviving warstriders forgot that detail.

 

[xarvh]

I'd be inclined to say that most Exalted games don't really need Mass Combat.


But the problem is that EotFS does need it, because we want that Tiger Warrior Training to matter.


This is no Helm's deep where the protagonists stumble on an allied army.


The characters have been prime movers behind the quantity and quality and make of the troops, so it can't be background.

 

[JayTee]

But, but, robot army! D:

 

[xarvh]

@JayTee: robot army wipes the floor with everything, it just needs a leader.


Actually, the weird thing with warstriders is that one can only damage the pilot, while the warstrider itself cannot be damaged.


This makes the rules sooooo much easier, but still creates some problems here and there.

 

[JayTee]

What if I build a ROBOT COMMANDER! ops:


EDIT: No but seriously, can I build a robot army with a robot commander?

 

[xarvh]

As long as the commander has a decent War rating, yes.

 

[JayTee]

Fantastic~

 

[Kacie]

I'd agree, mostly. If you're not defending or attacking a city, your Exalted game doesn't need Mass Combat. I'd argue the GM can even get around it if the PCs aren't using the super-training stuff.


I don't mean follow Helm's Deep to the point of being rescued by someone else. That's only good if you're being rescued by another PC who has spent a significant portion of their time forging an alliance and persuading people to come help - a direct result of PC effort.


A lot of movies follow the trend - the grand sweeping view of soldiers clashing, falling, and then the zoom in to the PCs, who grasp the dire nature or closing trap, and then the action follows them as they race to defuse/set up the bomb at the critical point; defend the gate, attack the siege engines, what have you. They do something that upsets the plans of the enemy, and gives the advantage to their side.


In some sense, the Tiger Training et all is making superior troops that, baring the interference of enemy Exalts, have the mechanical advantage via training, moral, and better arms. A ranking system of number of troops, training, moral, arms (4 numbers), whichever army has the better compared numbers, is going to win. Exalts with War roll off, come up with plans, etc.


Solo or squads of exalted (special units) can disrupt the plans, but it takes a scene to do that - and in a free-for-all war, there's no guarantee you can a) win the scene, or b) have time to attack/affect all the critical points of the war. For example, you might have to choose whether to defend the gates or sally forth to destroy the siege engines. Or, to pick another choice from Return of the King, do you defend the Walls, or do you rush to save the live of the Prince? (Not a literal choice to be made in all war situations - an example of "you can't pick both, both are important, which do you choose to try and do?")


I'm happy to work this out now, OOC, and use the current scene as a test run. I appreciate the effort you're making to come up with a simplified system, Xarvh, and I'll be happy to give some thought to it.