DV confusion

[cyl]

Yo,


I have a trick question, as I am actually considering storytelling 2E, and I have a loooot of problems assimilating some rules.


First I noticed that, strangely, some reflexive charms were labelled Step 1 or 2, while their effects actually applies in step 3 or 5 . This error I suppose was because of the obligation of declaration of attack/defense.


Second, I have a feeling that the original order of modifiers (corebook p.124) doesn't totally apply while calculating DV...


If I understood the base DV calculation correctly it should be:


PDV: (dex+melee/MA+weapon modifier)/2 round up


DDV: (dex+dodge+essence)/2 round up.


Then you add the bonuses/penalties, and finally you have your total DV.


My first observations about that are the following:


- equipment modifiers are included in PDV calculation... which would mean ANY equipment modifier SHOULD be applied.. But in truth, a shield is considered a bonus to DV, and not part of the "basel DV"... therefore... how do you consider Hearthstone Bracers bonuses (+3dice to dodge attempts) or other artefacts (outside of shield types) that adds a value to DV ? Same questions with charms that add a value to the DV (like Ebon Shadow Form, or Serpentine Evasion).


base DV or bonus to DV ?


This question is important, because of the unapplicable defense. When your DV is reduced to 0 by a special (or unexpected) attack, you still have to apply bonuses and penalties, and they can make you DV rise above or stay at 0.


I understand the shield acts like an "cover bonus"... but what about the other types of bonuses ?


- specialties do not count as bonuses and are not part of the "base DV" either... so they seem to be only for every other types of action, except defense.


That's all for now, thanks for your help.

 

[wordman]

Second, I have a feeling that the original order of modifiers (corebook p.124) doesn't totally apply while calculating DV...

They don't. Maybe.


Basically, the DV rules aren't consistent enough to worry about what they actually say. I did and it wasn't really worth the time. The end result is "you have to make some shit up".


Inapplicable defense, in particular, are probably not used as intended by anyone on the planet, including the writers. This cannot be proven, however, because those rules don't really say how they are supposed to work.


As for order of operations, this is probably what the intent was, but flip a coin to know if that is right or not.


BTW, hearthstone bracers, as far as I can tell, are the only item that works that way.

 

[Persell]

My first observations about that are the following:
- equipment modifiers are included in PDV calculation... which would mean ANY equipment modifier SHOULD be applied.. But in truth, a shield is considered a bonus to DV, and not part of the "basel DV"... therefore... how do you consider Hearthstone Bracers bonuses (+3dice to dodge attempts) or other artefacts (outside of shield types) that adds a value to DV ? Same questions with charms that add a value to the DV (like Ebon Shadow Form, or Serpentine Evasion).

If it says it adds to the DV, it adds to the final DV value. If it's something like Hearthstone Bracers, which give bonus dice to dodge rolls, you add it into the equation.


So for HS Bracers, the equation would actually be (Dex + Dodge + Essence + 3) / 2 as long as the bracers are equipped and attuned. If they weren't, the equation would just be Dex, Dodge and Essence.


Excellencies have their own rules for adding to DVs which are outlined in the Charms.

 

[cyl]

The end result is "you have to make some shit up".

That's what I'm trying to do by understanding the lacks and what the logic should be.


I read your articles, it was very interesting.


The Sutured Defense Value is what I had in mind actually.

 

[Brickwall]

Can't expect White Wolf to write anything well. No matter how hard they try.


1. The step of activation is the step of activation. It affects the action as a whole, and sometimes on a different step.


2. That order applies, not sure why you think it doesn't.


3. If it adds to your pool, it adds to your pool (you do have a defense pool, and it is what your DV is calculated from). If it adds to your DV (which is a rating, not a dice pool), it adds to your DV. Kinda simple.


4. There are other bonuses to DV, mostly from magic. I believe height also gives an advantage when Reach weapons aren't factored.


5. Specialties count towards any pool they apply to. If you have a Dodge specialty, it counts toward your Dodge pool in situations where it applies. No idea where you got the idea they didn't. Probably a typo.

 

[skafte]

About the specialties, it is written in the errata that they do count in the calculations.

 

[Arthur]

I will take advantage of this topic to ask the following:


Exactly what modifiers affect the DV of an unit in Mass Combat? I understand it's (General's DV + [Your Magnitude-Attacker's Magnitude (max 3)] + modifiers that affect normal Genera's DV).

 

[cyl]

1. The step of activation is the step of activation. It affects the action as a whole, and sometimes on a different step.

Well this is one of the nonsense of the books, because we already know from the Combat system that all charm uses are declared on step 1 or 2 (except for rerolls, counterattacks, and charms that mention they are declared on a different step). The most important thing actually is the step on which the charms kicks in, not when it is declared used.


But Wordman did a good job suturing the DV system.

3. If it adds to your pool, it adds to your pool (you do have a defense pool, and it is what your DV is calculated from). If it adds to your DV (which is a rating, not a dice pool), it adds to your DV. Kinda simple.

Actually my problem was to get a clear vision on which order did the modifiers applied... bonus to pool and to DV weren't a problem, but the order was.
Canon says: calculate DV, apply penalties/bonuses, recalculate DV.


With a charm that divide you DV by half... when does this charm acts, at the moment of calculating DV, while applying penalties/bonuses, or when you recalculate final DV ?


This was my concern.

No idea where you got the idea they didn't. Probably a typo.

The corebook explicitly do not include specialties in the DV calculations... but the errata does. Mistake fixed.

 

[Brickwall]

I didn't know there were Charms that divided DV in half (because that's reeeeally messy, as you noticed), but since it's a penalty, I'd assume it's "apply DV bonuses/penalties".

 

[Nemal]

I will take advantage of this topic to ask the following:
Exactly what modifiers affect the DV of an unit in Mass Combat? I understand it's (General's DV + [Your Magnitude-Attacker's Magnitude (max 3)] + modifiers that affect normal Genera's DV).

You missed the unit's Close Combat skill.


(General's DV + [Your Magnitude-Attacker's Magnitude (max 3)] + modifiers that affect normal Genera's DV + [unit's Close Combat Skill/2, rounded up] + Cover/maneuverability bonuses/penalties that affect the unit)

 

[Arthur]

Thank you very much. More or less the same thing with Social Units, right?

 

[cyl]

Well actually I can't find the charm (probably in some MA tree), but my example will be Five Shadow Feint (MoEP: Abyssals) 2 motes per 1DV reduction.


If you look at the order of modifiers p.124, you'll see normally non magical bonuses and penalties apply before magic effects. In the case of DV, they do not, the formula changes.


Should this charm apply then to base DV, or to final DV... since unapplicable defenses charms acts before final DV, before external non magical bonuses/penalties are applied, so there's nothing that clear.


I think too, that it applies in the penalty department... but I really can't be 100% sure.


On the contrary, excellencies are explicitely counted as bonuses.

 

[Nemal]

Thank you very much. More or less the same thing with Social Units, right?

Yeah, pretty much, although I can't imagine it comes up very often.

 

[wordman]

Should this charm apply then to base DV, or to final DV... since unapplicable defenses charms acts before final DV, before external non magical bonuses/penalties are applied, so there's nothing that clear.

It gets worse if you think to hard about the phrasing of the limit charms can have on DV and try to figure out when that limit takes effect, particularly mixed with charms that make defenses inapplicable. The interpretation you pick can make a very large difference though.

 

[cyl]

Yeah, it's really a mess.


I think the intended order is: every magical/non bonus/penalty is applied post base DV. You just add bonuses altogether, and do the same with penalties, and confront the results Bonuses- Penalties.


Thing is, as you stated, there's no precision for most charms having an impact on DV if the impact count as a bonus/penalty to base DV, or as a Bonus/Penalty for the purpose of calculating final DV.


For example, if we follow what Brickwall said:

3. If it adds to your pool, it adds to your pool (you do have a defense pool, and it is what your DV is calculated from). If it adds to your DV (which is a rating, not a dice pool), it adds to your DV. Kinda simple.

Excellencies should act like a bonus to base DV, not final, but the charms explicitely state otherwise.


Some MA charms and the abyssal charm above mentioned act like a bonus/penalty to DV (therefore we can consider them Bonuses/Penalties for the purpose of calculating final DV though it is not explicitely mentioned) but other charms, like the last charm in the sidereal melee tree, double the DV for the scene or have other impacts... there goes the question: application of the effect to base DV or to final DV ?

 

[Brickwall]

Waitwaitwait...you're saying that you found a Charm that levies, explicitly, a magical penalty to DV. Then you find the spot where you factor in magical penalties to DV. And you say there's something confusing.


I think you're deliberately making more trouble out of this than there should be.


If something doubles DV magically, it does so in the magic step. There's a spot that says "magic happens here unless it says otherwise". There's no question! It happens there!


The limit takes effect during the magic step. Because that's when the Charms affect it. Simple.


Everything that explicitly states something does what it explicitly states. The rules are there for when something isn't explicitly stated. Which oftentimes, it isn't. But, hey, right there are rules. Hooray!


Sorry if I seem short of temper, but people picking out nonexistent flaws in a system that works just fine just grinds my gears.

 

[cyl]

You're missing it.


There is no magical bonus/penalty step, there is only bonus and penalty step... magic and non magic are considered the same in calculating final DV... hence the problem.


The abyssal charm doesn't precise which type of penalty it is and on which step it takes effect neither does the sidereal charm... it just says DV reduction or double PDV.


I assumed that it applies like a DV penalty,or doubling base PDV but it could be otherwise. (you thought otherwise for example)


As for the magical PDV x2... there you seem to miss the point too.


Example:


I, Siddy bob, have a base PDV of 8 (dex5 melee5 spe+ 3 weapon +2).


I'm wounded to -2


I'm sick -1


But I have a shield +1


And I have the higher ground over my opponent +1


If you use the charm above mentionned (PDV x2) there are various possible consequences depending on the interpretation:


- PDV x2 applies to base PDV: so my base PDV will be 16, and my final PDV will be 16+1+1-2-1: 15


- PDV x 2 applies as a bonus during calculation of final DV: my base PDV is 8, and my final PDV will be (8+1+1)x2-2-1: 17


- PDV x 2 applies at the final stage of calculating final DV: my base PDV is 8 and my final PDV will be (8+1+1-2-1)x2: 14


See what I mean ?


Same logic applies to charm reducing DV... wether it base DV that is affected, wether it counts as a penalty, or wether it applies at the final DV changes a lot of things.

 

[wordman]

Sorry if I seem short of temper, but people picking out nonexistent flaws in a system that works just fine just grinds my gears.

Grind them on this:


There are three basic mathematical operations that happen to DV, either from charms or other effects: addition/subtraction, multiplication/division and capping. All of these can be applied "in the magic step", if you assume such a thing exists. The problem is that the combination of these operations is not commutative. Order makes a big difference. (A+B) * C != (A * C) + B. And C * cap(A+B) is definitely not the same thing as cap((A+B)*C).


This is also one of the main sources of the "is it a pool" confusion, by the way. Standard pools in exalted work on a roll("normal dice" + cap("dice from charms")) + "successes from charms" formula. For defense to work this way, charms that added directly to DV would act like successes; however, DV's are capped by special rules that make them work nothing like pools. At all. It's formula is cap(pseudoroll("pool") + "DV alterations"). Or maybe pseudoroll("pool") + cap("DV alterations").


Cyl's example could also have added in, say, a +2 DV effect from some other charm, which happens "in the magic step". Since the example uses a sidereal, then capping is probably going to matter, and that would apply "in the magic step" as well. Paying attention only to the two charms in the example, is this a (DV + 2) * 2 result or a (DV * 2) + 2 result. And either way, how does the capping apply?


You can make a case for either, but you certainly won't find it in the rules.

 

[Brickwall]

Okay, I've done some research.


1. Bonuses (like doubling, which is basically adding the base to itself) are always done before penalties with DVs. This is all bonuses and all penalties.


2. On page 185, it says that Charms affect the static value by being applied directly to the (Attribute+Ability). I can assume this means that they do not include any modifiers that don't come from Charms. Even if a character has a tower shield and a height bonus, a Charm that doubles DV will double the base DV. In fact, even further, this should not include Essence, Defense bonuses, or equipment bonuses like those from Hearthstone bracers. It solely applies to the part derived from Attribute+Ability.


So, basically, here's a situation. Lorezero the Dawn Caste has Dex 5 Dodge 5 Essence 3, and has a set of Hearthstone bracers. This makes his base DV 8. He gets a target shield, which will add a +1 DV bonus, and he gets a mount, a further height bonus. Okay, yay. That'll make his DV 10 or so. Let's say he uses this Charm that doubles his DV. It only applies to his Dex+Dodge, meaning that it adds 5 to his DV, for a total of 15. Admittedly, this makes the Charm effect misleading, but this is the only viable conclusion. And it is fully supported.


There. A ruling that affects all Charms that apply to DV. It's in there. Hooray. If you find an example in the corebook that makes this invalid, let me know.

 

[wordman]

On page 185, it says that Charms affect the static value by being applied directly to the (Attribute+Ability). I can assume... And it is fully supported.... Hooray. If you find an example in the corebook that makes this invalid, let me know.

Your analysis is based on the pg 185 rule and your own assumptions about what it means. Trouble is that the pg 185 rule is essentially refuted by the behavior of every single charm that alters DV directly (which few in the core book do, btw).


I agree that, if you make those assumptions, then yes it is possible to reach those conclusions. If you make other assumptions, you can get other conclusions and, yes, these will be just "as fully supported" as yours are. As I said before, you essentially have to make shit up to fill in the blanks. As it happens, the shit that you have made up is reasonable and probably works well for you. The shit I have made up using my own "fully supported" assumptions looks more like this. Hooray.


In your Lorezero example, you sidesteped my scenario. In addition to all that you say, suppose Lorezero is also under the effect of a charm that grants him a +2 DV. What's his final total then?

 

[Persell]

Still 15 because of the DV hardcap.

 

[cyl]

Still 15 because of the DV hardcap.

I'd like you to explain that.


It depends greatly on the step on which the double DV and the +2DV charms act.


It may be higher than 15.


EDIT: well unless you consider the hardcap still applies to charm specifically violating this rule.


I mean what's the point of having a charm explicitely doubling DV (which includes more than just attrbute+ability/2), if the limit still applies ?

 

[Nemal]

Still 15 because of the DV hardcap.

I'd like you to explain that.


It depends greatly on the step on which the double DV and the +2DV charms act.


It may be higher than 15.


EDIT: well unless you consider the hardcap still applies to charm specifically violating this rule.


I mean what's the point of having a charm explicitely doubling DV (which includes more than just attrbute+ability/2), if the limit still applies ?

The bonuses you get to your DV from Charms are still limited by your dice cap.


In the case of Solars (Attribute+Ability)/2, Dragon-Blooded (Ability+Specialty)/2, etc. etc.


So given that the above example already has the bonus maxed out from Charms, the +2 going before or later doesn't make a difference- the DV is capped out. You can only make it go higher with non-Charm bonuses.

 

[cyl]

This is stupid.


As wordman said, every charm explicitely modifying DV (for example Ebon Shadow Form) violates this rule.


I mean a solar at essence 5 with ESF pays 5 motes to get the maximum bonus to DV he can have for the scene while getting the same bonus using an excellency costs 10 motes, and has a instant duration ???


Come on... let's be serious.


EDIT: Perfection of the Visionnary Warrior (the siddy melee charm I was talking about): is an Essence 4 charm, double PDV, and the Sidereals hardcap is Essence...


Blade of the Battle Maiden violates it too, explicitely (authorising the cap to raise to Attribute+ability).

 

[Nemal]

Indeed.


I always thought it was odd that a martial artist with Fire Dragon Form had no real reason to use flame-flicker stance; his DV is likely capped out anyway.


That's the rule, though. It makes sense, too- prevents retarded DVs.


Some Charms circumvent this with technicalities, like Snake Form (does not increase DV but instead reduces the enemy's dice pool) or Glorious Solar Saber (not a Charm bonus to DV but instead an actual weapon with +10 defense)...