Defense Value clarification

[Persell]

Well, I just picked up the 2nd Ed. book, and I just wanted to make sure I understand the role of the Defense Value.  Is it the difficulty for the attack roll to hit it, with every success over that number adding to the damage roll?


If that's the case, I have another question that relates to Charms and DV.


I have a Dex of 3, a Dodge of 4 and an Essence of 3, making my Dodge DV 5.  Let's say that I have the First Dodge Excellency.  That means that I can spend 1 mote per die to a maximum of 7 die, roll them, and add each sux to my DDV 5 so that if I were to roll 7 die and get 3 sux I now have a DDV 8.


If I have the Second Dodge Excellency, instead I could spend 8 motes to add 4 sux [(Dex 3 + Dodge 4) /2 rounded up] to bring my DDV 5 to a DDV 9.


If I have the Third Dodge Excellency, I could instead spend 4 motes and raise my DDV 5 by half to a DDV 8.


Those enhancements to my DDV only apply to one action, so if I haven't activated another Charm yet on this tick and I'm attacked on this tick by a flurry of 3 attacks and I wanted to raise my DDV for each of those attacks I would have to activate one of those Charms 3 times, paying the cost 3 times.


Is that about right?


Is that right?

 

[memesis]

Well, I just picked up the 2nd Ed. book, and I just wanted to make sure I understand the role of the Defense Value.  Is it the difficulty for the attack roll to hit it, with every success over that number adding to the damage roll?

Correct.  if my DV is 4, you need more than 4 successes to hit me.

Those enhancements to my DDV only apply to one action, so if I haven't activated another Charm yet on this tick and I'm attacked on this tick by a flurry of 3 attacks and I wanted to raise my DDV for each of those attacks I would have to activate one of those Charms 3 times, paying the cost 3 times.

DV is getting your attribute+ability dice pool with an average result on the dice, every time.  It's N number of successes.  So yeah, the first and second excellency add to those successes in the usual manner.


The Excellencies apply to the resolution of a single attack.  So yes, you'd use the Charm once per attack, and it applies to your limit on which Charms you can activate when.

 

[Persell]

Well, I just picked up the 2nd Ed. book, and I just wanted to make sure I understand the role of the Defense Value.  Is it the difficulty for the attack roll to hit it, with every success over that number adding to the damage roll?

Correct.  if my DV is 4, you need more than 4 successes to hit me.

I thought that the difficult was the number of successes that I needed to get to do an action.  For instance, if an action has a difficulty 1 I only need 1 success to pull succeed.  So if your DV is 4, the difficulty to hit you, shouldn't I only need 4 successes on the attack roll to hit you?  I just don't add any bonus die to the damage because, well, there aren't any.  But if I were to get 6 sux against your DV 4, then I would add two extra dice to my damage roll, right?

 

[DarkProphet]

I've got a question concerning DV as well.


What about parrying *and* dodging?  it seems that the way they have it now you cannot do that without some kind of charm... and if you allowed it normally it'd be insanely hard to hit, since you'd apply both dv's (or perhaps an average of the two?) to the attack.


or is it now disallowed entirely to do both defenses against the same attack?  I'd allow it with a charm, personally, but as the rules stand now I don't see any other way to do it.

 

[Silence In Daylight]

In 2nd Ed, defensive charms either boost your DV in some way, or provide a perfect defense (I'll ignore soak-boosters for now). The rules clearly state that only the better of the two apply to any given attack, if applicable (though I suppose a character may choose an inferior defense for other reasons).


 Sure, you can write a charm that allows one to apply both DVs to an attack; then again, one can write a charm that specifically allows an attack to bypass a perfect defense. Where will the arms race end?


 In summary, the days of stacked defenses--parry and dodge--are over. Now, stacking parry/dodge and soak charms...

 

[The Scorp]

well i wouldnt say that its really over.  There are still charm effects that are undodgeable or unparryable. So having both, especially scene long ones like FLB and 5FBS, is still good.  Though I do know what you mean about dodging an attack, then parrying the left over suxx for uberness is now over.


Also, there are some charms ,like leaping dodge method, work off of dodging/parrying successfully, so if we want to use LDM and dodge is lower than parry you could opt to dodge instead to invoke LDM.  stuff like that.

 

[Guest]

I thought that the difficult was the number of successes that I needed to get to do an action.  For instance, if an action has a difficulty 1 I only need 1 success to pull succeed.  So if your DV is 4, the difficulty to hit you, shouldn't I only need 4 successes on the attack roll to hit you?  I just don't add any bonus die to the damage because, well, there aren't any.  But if I were to get 6 sux against your DV 4, then I would add two extra dice to my damage roll, right?

Not quite right. DV is a rare case of something like Difficulty, but not. It subtracts successes, just like successes on Defense in 1E did. If it subtracts 4 successes, and you only had 4, you get 0. Thus, no hit. You must have X+1 successes to hit an X DV target. However, you get to add any and all successes remaining to the Raw Damage.

 

[wordman]

Is it the difficulty for the attack roll to hit it, with every success over that number adding to the damage roll?

It's easier to think about DV as taking successes away from the attacker.

Those enhancements to my DDV only apply to one action, so if I haven't activated another Charm yet on this tick and I'm attacked on this tick by a flurry of 3 attacks and I wanted to raise my DDV for each of those attacks I would have to activate one of those Charms 3 times, paying the cost 3 times.

Yes. Also keep in mind that each attack after the first gives you an "onslaught penalty" of -1 to your DV.

 

[Persell]

is the onslaught penalty suffered by the attaker or attackie?

 

[Flagg]

is the onslaught penalty suffered by the attaker or attackie?

The latter.


-S

 

[memesis]

is the onslaught penalty suffered by the attaker or attackie?

The defender suffers the onslaught penalty.


If the attacker is using an Extra Action Charm to generate the attacks, his DV does not suffer.  Otherwise, he is penalized via the flurry rules, so his own accuracy (and DV) go down.

 

[Persell]

So if I attack 5 times in a round via a flurry I suffer a -5 DV penalty and assuming all attacks are made against a single foe they would suffer -0, -1, -2, -3, and -4. against each attack respectivly?

 

[MikeOQuinn]

So if I attack 5 times in a round via a flurry I suffer a -5 DV penalty and assuming all attacks are made against a single foe they would suffer -0, -1, -2, -3, and -4. against each attack respectivly?

Correct. You would also, of course, suffer the regular dice penalties to your actions (-5, -6, -7, -8, -9, -10). So yeah, 5 attacks in one round puts you at a severe disadvantage at the end.

 

[Persell]

Are those dice penalties to the attacks being made?  Because if they are we have been playing this game very wrong.  I'll be honest I haven't had much o f a chance to read the core rule bookmy groups ST hordes it, and this would explain why I seem much more powerful than I should be.

 

[Persell]

That's right.  Here's how it breaks down technically.


You declare that you're going to make a flurry of 5 attacks.


The first attack you make suffers a -5 penalty (flurry action penalty).  Your opponent's DV is -0 against your attack (onslaught penalty).  Your DV is -1 until it refreshes (flurry DV penalty).


The second attack you make is at -6.  Your opponent's DV is -1 against your attack.  Your DV is -2 until it refreshes.


The third attack you make is at -7.  Your opponent's DV is -2 against your attack.  Your DV is -3 until it refreshes.


The fourth attack you make is at -8.  Your opponent's DV is -3 against your attack.  Your DV is -4 until it refreshes.


The fifth attack you make is at -9.  Your opponent's DV is -4 against your attack.  Your DV is -5 until it refreshes.


It's your opponent's turn.  His DV refreshes and he makes a flurry of 2 attacks against you.


His first attack against you is at -2.  Your DV is at a -5 against it.  His DV is at -1 until it refreshes.


His second attack against you is at -3.  Your DV is at a -6 against it.  His DV is at a -2 until it refreshes.


An enemy archer attacks you from a distance, making a flurry of 3 attacks.


His first attack against you is at -3.  Your DV is at a -5 against it.  His DV is at a -1 until it refreshes.


His second attack against you is at -4.  Your DV is at a -6 against it.  His DV is at a -2 until it refreshes.


His third attack against you is at a -5.  Your DV is at a -7 against it.  His DV is at a -3 until it refreshes.


It's your turn again and your DV refreshes.  You attack your first opponent two times.


Your first attack against your opponent is at a -2.  His DV against that attack is at a -2.  Your DV is at a -1 until it refreshes.


Your second attack against your opponent is at a -3.  His DV against that attack is at a -3.  Your DV is at a -2 until it refreshes.


Does this make things clearer?

 

[Persell]

Very much soo thanks a ton.