Deal Breakers. What makes you "walk" away?

[Bone2pick]

Who's the protagonist? Where's their arc? Where's any sign of character development? Why is that any more of a story than "I bought a coke at the store."

 

[Melpomene]

Who's the protagonist? Where's their arc? Where's any sign of character development? Why is that any more of a story than "I bought a coke at the store."

Eh, I suppose that Cherbear is just into writing Flash Fiction over anything else, so that's why they bring up the Hemingway quote. For those who don't know, it was from when he was challenged to make a story in six words.

Cherbear just seems to like the idea of getting a story across in as little words as possible, though that is not to say such is 'the right way', case in point, many people don't like Flash Fiction because they find it to be too dry, and I am one of them. Not to say that type of writing is bad, it is just not my cup of tea.

 

[Sara Sidereal]

Who's the protagonist? Where's their arc? Where's any sign of character development? Why is that any more of a story than "I bought a coke at the store."

All implied, just as in "I bought a coke at the store." And both are stories.

 

[Sara Sidereal]

Eh, I suppose that Cherbear is just into writing Flash Fiction over anything else, so that's why they bring up the Hemingway quote. For those who don't know, it was from when he was challenged to make a story in six words.

Cherbear just seems to like the idea of getting a story across in as little words as possible, though that is not to say such is 'the right way', case in point, many people don't like Flash Fiction because they find it to be too dry, and I am one of them. Not to say that type of writing is bad, it is just not my cup of tea.

I don't write flash fiction. I just don't place value on words for the sake of words.

 

[Bone2pick]

All implied, just as in "I bought a coke at the store." And both are stories.

Implied? That's a funny way of saying absent. So "I farted" is a story? And so much meaning with so few words... It must make you envious.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Yeah I don't think an advert from a newspaper is a story. Which is what the baby thing reminds me of. I mean it does give you something to respond to in a roleplay situation which was the original complaint.

Sara Sidereal I think you do have a valid complaint you're just arguing against the wrong end of it. You're argument seems to be more or less - You don't have to write a lot of words to get your point across. And I don't like roleplays which assume you need XX words to get a point across.

Those roleplays do exist. And they are at best misguided and at worst elitist trash.

But they tend to be groups where it's just assumed that if you don't hit a specific threshold you aren't "trying" hard enough or you aren't "literate" enough to join.

This in contrast with 1x1s where you'll get the more " Please write X paragraphs so I have something to respond to " sentiment.

I've already gone into how those are different ideas. In the 1x1 it's more about the idea the person has that if you both write the same amount of paragraphs you are both putting the same effort into the roleplay. Not from a literary standpoint but from the standpoint that each person is putting in equal effort to make the roleplay succeed.

And thus that has less to do with - You need XX words to get your point across - which we agree is bad. It is more - hey I did this and if you do the same than we're both doing our equal share of the work to make this succeed.

Like I don't think you're wrong per se. I just think you're misunderstanding the difference between a literacy requirement and a request for equal effort.

 

[Ferociousfeind]

Implied? That's a funny way of saying absent. So "I farted" is a story? And so much meaning with so few words... It must make you envious.

Exactly!!! What made you fart? Was there anyone to witness it?
Granted, it's a pretty shitty story, being a description of a common occurrence, but that doesn't mean it's an event that had an entire life building up to it, and an entire life following as a result. There's plenty of meaning if you so choose to interpret it that way.
But if you choose to disregard the meaning and take it as bad writing (it most likely is, however, 2 words isn't enough to convey much of anything; you can only get so information-dense), that's your choice, and nobody's stopping you from burning those bridges.
Yes, yes, malicious sarcasm. I can hear the sarcasm in your words as well.

 

[Bone2pick]

Exactly!!! What made you fart? Was there anyone to witness it?
Granted, it's a pretty shitty story, being a description of a common occurrence, but that doesn't mean it's an event that had an entire life building up to it, and an entire life following as a result. There's plenty of meaning if you so choose to interpret it that way.
But if you choose to disregard the meaning and take it as bad writing (it most likely is, however, 2 words isn't enough to convey much of anything; you can only get so information-dense), that's your choice, and nobody's stopping you from burning those bridges.

Pure and utter absurdity.

Edit: You can pull meaning out of a recipe for chicken soup if you're insane. I don't see how that's helping your case.

 

[rae2nerdy]

Pure and utter absurdity.

Edit: You can pull meaning out of a recipe for chicken soup if you're insane. I don't see how that's helping your case.

That would be a funny sequence actually. A character going into a long rant about the deep spiritual meaning of a recipe of chicken soup.

 

[Bone2pick]

That would be a funny sequence actually. A character going into a long rant about the deep spiritual meaning of a recipe of chicken soup.

I heard Sam Harris do exactly that with a recipe for fish... It might be on YouTube.

Edit: Call me old fashioned, but I generally think of a proper story as the following: http://www.katiekazoo.com/pdf/KK_FiveEssentialElements.pdf

Additional Edit: Here's Sam discovering the "meaning" of a fish recipe:

 

[Ferociousfeind]

(Geez guys slow down I'm typiiiiiing)

Yeah I don't think an advert from a newspaper is a story. Which is what the baby thing reminds me of. I mean it does give you something to respond to in a roleplay situation which was the original complaint.

Sara Sidereal I think you do have a valid complaint you're just arguing against the wrong end of it. You're argument seems to be more or less - You don't have to write a lot of words to get your point across. And I don't like roleplays which assume you need XX words to get a point across.

Those roleplays do exist. And they are at best misguided and at worst elitist trash.

But they tend to be groups where it's just assumed that if you don't hit a specific threshold you aren't "trying" hard enough or you aren't "literate" enough to join.

This in contrast with 1x1s where you'll get the more " Please write X paragraphs so I have something to respond to " sentiment.

I've already gone into how those are different ideas. In the 1x1 it's more about the idea the person has that if you both write the same amount of paragraphs you are both putting the same effort into the roleplay. Not from a literary standpoint but from the standpoint that each person is putting in equal effort to make the roleplay succeed.

And thus that has less to do with - You need XX words to get your point across - which we agree is bad. It is more - hey I did this and if you do the same than we're both doing our equal share of the work to make this succeed.

Like I don't think you're wrong per se. I just think you're misunderstanding the difference between a literacy requirement and a request for equal effort.

I don't ever touch 1x1s, and when it happens in what's supposed to be a group RP, it gets really awkward as the GM and the casual player are forced to juggle responsibilities they weren't prepared for.
I still don't quite see the reasoning behind X word count = X effort. What you get across in 2 paragraphs I could easily and eloquently paraphrase in 2 sentences.
That said, I could also expound upon those 2 sentences - with enormous effort on my end, I might add - to produce 2 paragraphs packed full of information, which someone could easily expand into 10-12 paragraphs if they so felt the need.

Pure and utter absurdity.

Edit: You can pull meaning out of a recipe for chicken soup if you're insane. I don't see how that's helping your case.

Absurdity?
You're just now realizing that citing and arguing with extremes is absurd?
Finally, someone gets it! When you make an absurd counterargument, I'll have no choice but to use absurd logic to dismantle it! It's only fair.
I kid, I kid. Yes, from a realist, literal standpoint, "I farted" means, "I farted". But you've got to dig deeper than that.
In a roleplaying scene, that's not nearly enough information to work with (unless you're crazy enough to, oh I don't know, roll with it and expound upon it), and the amount of words someone produces is generally a good rule of thumb for how much effort it took, but looks can be deceiving.

What you may produce in no time may be an immense struggle for others to keep up with. People who write 10-12 paragraphs (and then laugh in OOC that their posts have been lacking lately AAAAAA) set an incredibly high bar for the rest of us because some people believe X words = X effort, when it's simply not true.

Let me state again that a ludicrously low amount of words (below 50, I would say, for casual roleplay purposes), you simply cannot communicate anything meaningful.

Aaaauuugh my hands hurt. Now don't go misinterpreting my statements for the sake of argument. Hopefully re-re-reiterating my stance is enough to communicate it to you.

 

[rae2nerdy]

(Geez guys slow down I'm typiiiiiing)

I don't ever touch 1x1s, and when it happens in what's supposed to be a group RP, it gets really awkward as the GM and the casual player are forced to juggle responsibilities they weren't prepared for.
I still don't quite see the reasoning behind X word count = X effort. What you get across in 2 paragraphs I could easily and eloquently paraphrase in 2 sentences.
That said, I could also expound upon those 2 sentences - with enormous effort on my end, I might add - to produce 2 paragraphs packed full of information, which someone could easily expand into 10-12 paragraphs if they so felt the need.

To be clear I am not agreeing that Mirroring Word Counts = Mirroring Effort.

I personally don't care how much people write as long as it's readable and gives me some kind of action to respond to.

You can write three sentences or three pages and it's all the same to me.

But that being the case I do understand that some people do believe that Mirroring Word Counts = Mirroring Effort.

And I can to an extend see their point. I think it's just a symptom of a wider problem in roleplaying where you assume your own personal experiences and expectations are everyone elses.

So if you assume that everyone who roleplays does so in much the same manner you do than the whole Mirroring thing makes a lot more sense.

I personally don't agree. But it does at least seem more valid.

 

[Bone2pick]

Absurdity?
You're just now realizing that citing and arguing with extremes is absurd?

I'm arguing "I farted" isn't a story; best of luck spinning that into an extreme position.

Yes, from a realist, literal standpoint, "I farted" means, "I farted". But you've got to dig deeper than that.

No, I don't. And I don't recommend you do it either. There's nothing to dig to. It's simply (and crudely) stating I broke wind.

Let me state again that a ludicrously low amount of words (below 50, I would say, for casual roleplay purposes), you simply cannot communicate anything meaningful.

Finally, an area of agreement. It is ludicrous to consider something under fifty words a proper story. There's just not enough meat on the bone. Well, my job is done here, carry on folks.

 

[Ferociousfeind]

I'm arguing "I farted" isn't a story; best of luck spinning that into an extreme position.



No, I don't. And I don't recommend you do it either. There's nothing to dig to. It's simply (and crudely) stating I broke wind.



Finally, an area of agreement. It is ludicrous to consider something under fifty words a proper story. There's just not enough meat on the bone. Well, my job is done here, carry on folks.

You're really pushing my buttons, and I feel the incredible urge to pull apart your reasoning. But god fucking damnit I can't come up with anything. It is possibly closely related to your dismissive attitude and my current aggravated state. And damnit there's nothing I could say that adequately communicates my sheer irrational rage at this response.
I'm sincerely sorry I could not make you look like a fool here and now.

 

[Bone2pick]

Ferociousfeind Let's be friends. I like your style.

 

[Ferociousfeind]

Ferociousfeind Let's be friends. I like your style.

Somehow that's an even more irritating response than I imagined you would make. But to hell with irritation because why not?

 

[Bone2pick]

Somehow that's an even more irritating response than I imagined you would make. But to hell with irritation because why not?

Do I not destroy my enemies when I make them my friends? Abraham Lincoln

 

[Sara Sidereal]

Yeah I don't think an advert from a newspaper is a story. Which is what the baby thing reminds me of. I mean it does give you something to respond to in a roleplay situation which was the original complaint.

Sara Sidereal I think you do have a valid complaint you're just arguing against the wrong end of it. You're argument seems to be more or less - You don't have to write a lot of words to get your point across. And I don't like roleplays which assume you need XX words to get a point across.

Those roleplays do exist. And they are at best misguided and at worst elitist trash.

But they tend to be groups where it's just assumed that if you don't hit a specific threshold you aren't "trying" hard enough or you aren't "literate" enough to join.

This in contrast with 1x1s where you'll get the more " Please write X paragraphs so I have something to respond to " sentiment.

I've already gone into how those are different ideas. In the 1x1 it's more about the idea the person has that if you both write the same amount of paragraphs you are both putting the same effort into the roleplay. Not from a literary standpoint but from the standpoint that each person is putting in equal effort to make the roleplay succeed.

And thus that has less to do with - You need XX words to get your point across - which we agree is bad. It is more - hey I did this and if you do the same than we're both doing our equal share of the work to make this succeed.

Like I don't think you're wrong per se. I just think you're misunderstanding the difference between a literacy requirement and a request for equal effort.

An infinite amount of words does not imply any amount of effort. A request for minimum post length, then, if the actual goal is equal effort, will not accomplish the goal.

Pure and utter absurdity.

Edit: You can pull meaning out of a recipe for chicken soup if you're insane. I don't see how that's helping your case.

Not absurd at all.

I'm arguing "I farted" isn't a story; best of luck spinning that into an extreme position.

Feel free to present your argument at any time.

No, I don't. And I don't recommend you do it either. There's nothing to dig to. It's simply (and crudely) stating I broke wind.

There is plenty to dig to.

Finally, an area of agreement. It is ludicrous to consider something under fifty words a proper story.

Asserted without evidence, dismissed without discussion.

There's just not enough meat on the bone. Well, my job is done here, carry on folks.

I accept your concession.

Implied? That's a funny way of saying absent. So "I farted" is a story? And so much meaning with so few words... It must make you envious.

Yes, implied. In most stories, what the writer leaves out is as or more important than what they leave in. You don't need four paragraphs of a character's internal monologue with every post to have an idea of what's going on in their head. That's what's nice about being human.

And yes, that is also a story.

 

[Bone2pick]

There is plenty to dig to.

By all means, dig through "I farted" and post what you uncover. I'm on the edge of my seat.

Asserted without evidence, dismissed without discussion.

But my evidence is implied. You see, what I leave out in arguments is more important than what I present. Sound familiar?

I accept your concession.

Oh if you're stepping into the ring, I'd like to go a few more rounds.

Yes, implied. In most stories, what the writer leaves out is as or more important than what they leave in. You don't need four paragraphs of a character's internal monologue with every post to have an idea of what's going on in their head. That's what's nice about being human.

So trivial things like plot, character, conflict, and resolution - those needn't be worried about? Was that a chapter in storytelling for dummies? I must have skimmed over it. Regardless, I gotta say, I'm still a bit skeptical of the logic of it all...

I'll reserve judgement until I read through your summary of I farted.

 

[Darkraven]

I'm afraid that as a qualified critic of literature and a writer, I can't agree that 'I farted' is truly a story. There's a very good reason why all the books we study have more than two words, and Hemingway's six-word story didn't quite make it to the lecture halls. What some guy above said is right: there are too many things that a two-word 'story' lack, and it can't be called a story. Characters, plot, story, structure, a message even.

If two-word 'stories' are just as viable as 80,000 word stories, then there wouldn't be 80,000 word stories. In the writing circle, we've identified different amount of words as having different advantages and disadvantages, and varying people could write varying lengths of stories. I've only ever found single-sentence stories in Wattpad, but they tend to be more than two words long... And I guess they're good for marketing.

EDIT: To add, shortest viable length is about 100 words more or less, and it is called flash fiction. In education terms, it's a primary school/grade school composition.

 

[AtlannianSpy]

This is the "personal" dealbreakers thread. Nobody actually has to convince anyone of anything, we can all just rp with other people.

Like, I'll walk away from an interest check sometimes if the GM's username is annoying. That's not based on any real logic and you can all argue that I shouldn't do it until you're blue in the face but it won't change my behavior cause it's just a personal preference. By the same token the fact that I'm making that choice doesn't really affect anyone else, there are plenty of other people who don't think some usernames are silly and are perfectly happy RPing with those people.

I realize this is a bit hypocritical because I sorta jumped into the argument myself a few pages back but the fact that it's been going for a few pages should be indication enough that the topic might now be better suited to a different thread.

 

[Shuusuke]

I've seen this discussion in at least 2 other threads, one of them being this Roleplay Theory - Minimum post lengths.

The first I want to say is that this thread isn't even about post length, unlike the one mentioned above, and is not even about debating either.

The second thing I want to say is that this is all about preference, someone might like posts with many words, while others prefer posts with less words. Arguing is fine if you want to understand the other person's point of view, but that's clearly not what's happening for the most part here.

The third thing I want to say is that, just like in the other thread, people are arguing because somewhere along the way, someone misunderstood (on purpose or not) things. Post length is one thing, post content is another, that's simple to understand. Do they have any correlation to each other? Possibly. But then strawman's finest showed up, and suddenly someone said "but that guy said number of words = number of effort in a certain unit of measure that I just made up!" when that guy didn't, and things started snowballing from there. Maxims started showing up, laws of the universe were being announced, insults were being invoked liberally, people's honor and pride were being challenged. You can't measure mental effort precisely from a post, but you can't deny that typing more words requires more effort than typing few words. That's the meaning of effort that I see in the context of post length and think everyone else should be seeing.

Anyway, I was watching this thread for a while and had to say something about this unnecessary discussion and was beaten to it, despite wanting to stay away from it. So tl;dr:

-Wrong place for this.
-You can't "win" when preferences are in question.
-Don't put words into other people's...posts.
-Respectful debates are possible.

Finally, to address what this topic asks:

I dislike when players are clearly making groups between themselves and excluding "outsiders" from the story, I dislike when someone makes a character to look cooler than another, I dislike when there's any sort of disrespect or battle of pride between the players (egads!) in the RP, I dislike when a player does not seem to respect the RP (trying to make the story all about their character while that was never the plan, for example), I dislike when I get the feeling that other players aren't putting enough mental effort on their posts, I dislike when players aren't participating in the RP but are still happily chatting in OOC and don't give any explanations about it, I dislike when people immediately assume that if a character has similarities to any kind of stereotype (gentle giant, dour loner, bubbly girl, etc) they are inherently bad without letting the person actually RP them first, I dislike when faceclaims are necessary, I dislike when BBcode is required but not provided in the character sheet, and...well, that's a lot of dislikes, didn't think I'd have that many when I started typing. Guess that shows why I haven't been in many RPs, heh.

 

[Darkraven]

Righto, good that we're back on topic.

 

[Bone2pick]

I realize this is a bit hypocritical because I sorta jumped into the argument myself a few pages back but the fact that it's been going for a few pages should be indication enough that the topic might now be better suited to a different thread.

I suspect the debate already reached its end, but a reasonable suggestion just the same.

 

[myfanwy]

I dislike when BBcode is required but not provided in the character sheet,

i just want to like this twice tbh this is a good point.

anywho, some more of mine:
× when the ooc chat makes no sense and you have to read through eighty pages to find relevant information. personal conversations are all well and good, but only in a pm.
× on the same topic, when there's personal drama. no one wants to read that, believe me.